Bush Leaning Towards "Orderly Bankruptcy"

[Ralph Greene]

I assume MOST posters on here enjoy and drive American brands, and are on here to enjoy talking about them and what is coming out new every year. That is what most of the posts are about. Enjoyment of American brands. None of us want to see any American brand go bankrupt and disappear. The competition is fun too, and always has been. So I'm not sure why those who think American vehicles are crap and should be bankrupt come on here other than to troll. More than that even, many posting on here are domestic auto employes and have families and live in communtities. This bankruptcy talk is very stressful and the uncertainty week afte week is even more stressful. Those who believe in bankrutcy as option should go post on some other board since most on here enjoy these vehicles and need them for survival in some cases. Why post on board that is about something you want to see go bellyup?

 

This is a thoughtful post, and I can appreciate your point of view. But what do you think about this?

 

If order for GM, and maybe Chrysler, to survive, something has to happen to instill confidence in the American car buying public about the viability of these brands. What better way to do that than with a Government backed pre package (tough love) plan that immediately addresses all concerns? A plan that actually has a chance to put GM, at least, back on the road to survival. Eliminating all arguing, all negoitiation, all delaying tactics, just a plan that gets to the nitty gritty of the matter. Don't you believe such an approach would bring forth a wave of American car buying loyalty, and our companies would immediately begin to improve their sales as the economy hopefully comes back next years from all the pump priming going on?

 

To me....just giving them some money....without helping them (making them) fix their capacity problems, does not make Americans want to go out and buy new American made cars. It does not instill confidence in their viability.

 

I'm thinking of all the workers involved also. And of all the extended companies families who face financial ruin. And most of us on here are also loyal American car owners who want these companies to be around. We want Americans to have whatever jobs the car markets can provide. But we also want something that can work. Give it some thought.

 

And BTW.....I think the most recent poll supports what I just said. It seems it depends how how the question is asked to the public.

Edited December 18, 2008 by Ralph Greene

[Critic]

Boils down to this.. BANKRUPT! Kaput, Finished, GONE, OVER, Sayonara, Good Night, it's been wonderful.

 

 

What part have you ever actually been involved in? Other than reading someone say it should be this or that.

 

Let the market decide. It's a LOAN. IF it doesn't get repaid the gov. has wasted MORE money in the TARP funds than this piddly 14B. ahhhhhhhhhh F'it! just let the whole house collapse and then let the real whining begin in the bread lines.

[FordBuyer]

Boils down to this.. BANKRUPT! Kaput, Finished, GONE, OVER, Sayonara, Good Night, it's been wonderful.

 

 

What part have you ever actually been involved in? Other than reading someone say it should be this or that.

 

Let the market decide. It's a LOAN. IF it doesn't get repaid the gov. has wasted MORE money in the TARP funds than this piddly 14B. ahhhhhhhhhh F'it! just let the whole house collapse and then let the real whining begin in the bread lines.

 

Deep down, I believe Bush will only offer prepackaged bankrupticy and probably does suspect that GM will say. "Thanks, but No Thanks," and in that way Bush can kick the can down the road to Obama and wipe his hands of it all with no guilt. Bush sleeps like a baby knowing his actions killed and maimed thousands of soldiers and hundreds of thousands of civilians and he sleeps like baby going to bed everynight at 10 PM sharp. So why should the debacle of GM and American economy bother him? Iraq doesn't bother him and even some Iraqi civilian showing his shoes didn't bother him.

[NickF1011]

Deep down, I believe Bush will only offer prepackaged bankrupticy and probably does suspect that GM will say. "Thanks, but No Thanks," and in that way Bush can kick the can down the road to Obama and wipe his hands of it all with no guilt. Bush sleeps like a baby knowing his actions killed and maimed thousands of soldiers and hundreds of thousands of civilians and he sleeps like baby going to bed everynight at 10 PM sharp. So why should the debacle of GM and American economy bother him? Iraq doesn't bother him and even some Iraqi civilian showing his shoes didn't bother him.

 

Can we not turn this into an Iraq thread?

[MarkFive]

If all the Orderlies go bankrupt, who will help to move the patients?

[RichardJensen]

Link. We have a bankruptcy system for a reason; (1) to give an honest debtor a "fresh start" in life by relieving the debtor of most debts, and (2) to repay creditors in an orderly manner to the extent that the debtor has property available for payment.

Okay, 1, that's 2 reasons, and 2, let's take a close look at number 1:

 

"to give an honest debtor a "fresh start" in life by relieving the debtor of most debts"

 

What happens if the FACT of a bankruptcy filing proves material to the outcome of a bankruptcy? As in, suddenly, your market for product vanishes, as consumers no longer trust you.

 

As I've said before, everything that can be done IN a bankruptcy filing can be done OUTSIDE of a filing.

 

Anyone who thinks GM can -skate- into a Ch. 11 filing, tear up all of its contracts, and emerge on the other side a lean mean fighting machine, with NO impact to public image is, quite frankly, taking a pollyanna approach to the matter that is not justified by ANY prior experience in the industry or outside of it.

Edited December 18, 2008 by RichardJensen

[MarkFive]

Anyone who thinks GM can -skate- into a Ch. 11 filing, tear up all of its contracts, and emerge on the other side a lean mean fighting machine, with NO impact to public image is, quite frankly, taking a pollyanna approach to the matter that is not justified by ANY prior experience in the industry or outside of it.

 

I've only been through the Canadian equivalent of Chapter 11 and that was in 1993. Everything ordered from vendors during the Chapter 11 period was pre-paid before shipping. No payment, no shipment. Also, some suppliers were so pissed off after Chapter 11 that they refused to do business again outside of Chapter 11.

 

In the event that even an "orderly bankruptcy" is arranged, would the secured creditors not try to liquidate existing stock as quickly as possible to recoup as much as they can? Would this mean that a massive "fire sale" would happen?

 

Also as part of the restructuring would GM be forced to close down even more brands than those recently proposed to the U.S. government?

Edited December 18, 2008 by MarkFive

[Deanh]

Can we not turn this into an Iraq thread?

Shaquille O'neals shoe would have taken both of them down.....

[Critic]

I'm gonna try to break it down to something simple even I can understand.

 

 

I sell you a hot-dog for $1.00 on credit and you just pay me $.30 of it and tell me to wait 90 days for the rest.

 

 

Then I get a notice from court, you just filed bankruptcy and my balance is wiped clean. I will never receive my monies due me.

 

 

The next month you come back to me to buy another hot-dog again and want to put it back on credit. I tell you I don't sell them anymore. I had to declare bankruptcy myself.

[MarkFive]

The next month you come back to me to buy another hot-dog again and want to put it back on credit. I tell you I don't sell them anymore. I had to declare bankruptcy myself.

 

Before the company I worked for declared bankruptcy protection, they evaluated critical vendors and used whatever money they had to ensure that they were paid up-to-date before the declaration. That way, they ensured a bit of a life-line when they came out of Chapter 11 - those companies were very willing to continue to do business.

[Critic]

Before the company I worked for declared bankruptcy protection, they evaluated critical vendors and used whatever money they had to ensure that they were paid up-to-date before the declaration. That way, they ensured a bit of a life-line when they came out of Chapter 11 - those companies were very willing to continue to do business.

You work for an auto-company where the food chain can run to something like 10 layers deep?

 

Have you seen all the small companies that are now closing just because the sales of auto's is so bad, then can not remain open as it is?

 

Clarify what company or type of business you refer to, they are probably dis-similar in nature.

[MarkFive]

You work for an auto-company where the food chain can run to something like 10 layers deep?

Have you seen all the small companies that are now closing just because the sales of auto's is so bad, then can not remain open as it is?

Clarify what company or type of business you refer to, they are probably dis-similar in nature.

 

Who said it was an auto company? I was relaying an experience through Chapter 11 bankruptcy. It was in retail.

[Critic]

You work for an auto-company where the food chain can run to something like 10 layers deep?

 

Have you seen all the small companies that are now closing just because the sales of auto's is so bad, then can not remain open as it is?

 

Clarify what company or type of business you refer to, they are probably dis-similar in nature.

 

 

Who said it was an auto company? I was relaying an experience through Chapter 11 bankruptcy. It was in retail.

I didn't SAY - NOTICE the ? at the end of the sentence.

 

And as I suspected. It didn't have to deal with manufacturing, So how can you compare apples to oranges?

[FordBuyer]

GM and Chrysler reiterated today that BANKRUPTCY is not an answer. They said it's dangerous and unworkable. What more does Bush need? Again, he is making the Domestics twitch in the wind and at same time creating more incertainty for economy which makes Scrooge look like an angel.

[MarkFive]

And as I suspected. It didn't have to deal with manufacturing, So how can you compare apples to oranges?

 

Are you aware that retail can also have a manufacturing component?

 

It also has multiple layers.

[Critic]

Are you aware that retail can also have a manufacturing component?

 

It also has multiple layers.

I shouldn't touch this, but I will.....

 

So this is a FORD site, with it's employees. A site where you pretty much know the subject matter and everything associated with it. Sallary's # of people, product, etc.

 

BUT THEN PEOPLE COME ON AND MAKE A GENERALIZATION OF SOMETHING THEY KNOW ABOUT, BUT REFUSE TO BACK THAT UP WITH A NAME OR A LINK, BECAUSE IT SERVES THEIR PURPOSE TO SAY SOMETHING WITHOUT DATA.

 

COWARD is about all i can say to your post.

[RichardJensen]

I'm gonna try to break it down to something simple even I can understand.

 

 

I sell you a hot-dog for $1.00 on credit and you just pay me $.30 of it and tell me to wait 90 days for the rest.

 

 

Then I get a notice from court, you just filed bankruptcy and my balance is wiped clean. I will never receive my monies due me.

 

 

The next month you come back to me to buy another hot-dog again and want to put it back on credit. I tell you I don't sell them anymore. I had to declare bankruptcy myself.

Hmm. I think that's why all the local hot dog stands dropped their 'net-90' policies.

 

Anyway, it's not like you absolutely will not receive payment on the balance due, but because you extended unsecured credit, you most likely will end up with nothing.

 

Now, it's entirely possible that the bankruptcy trustee will allow payments to unsecured creditors, if those creditors are in an ongoing business relationship.

 

However, I'd expect secured creditors (and even other unsecured creditors) to fight any payment to any individual unsecured creditor.

 

---

 

Furthermore, for those of you who don't want the government in the car business, but DO want a Ch. 11 bankruptcy.....

 

 

The CEO of GM will, to all intents and purposes, be a government employee the instant that GM files Ch. 11.

 

Finally, for those of you who want GM to restructure for 'efficient' operations going forward......

 

Few companies emerge from Ch. 11 in substantially better shape than when they entered it. Why?

 

Because often the creditors carry an undue influence on decisions about the company's restructuring. Also, it's difficult to both attract and retain the talent necessary to restructure a company in Ch. 11.

 

---

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And for those of you still unconvinced, I have exactly one word for you:

 

 

DELPHI

Edited December 19, 2008 by RichardJensen

[FordBuyer]

Hmm. I think that's why all the local hot dog stands dropped their 'net-90' policies.

 

Anyway, it's not like you absolutely will not receive payment on the balance due, but because you extended unsecured credit, you most likely will end up with nothing.

 

Now, it's entirely possible that the bankruptcy trustee will allow payments to unsecured creditors, if those creditors are in an ongoing business relationship.

 

However, I'd expect secured creditors (and even other unsecured creditors) to fight any payment to any individual unsecured creditor.

 

---

 

Furthermore, for those of you who don't want the government in the car business, but DO want a Ch. 11 bankruptcy.....

 

 

The CEO of GM will, to all intents and purposes, be a government employee the instant that GM files Ch. 11.

 

Finally, for those of you who want GM to restructure for 'efficient' operations going forward......

 

Few companies emerge from Ch. 11 in substantially better shape than when they entered it. Why?

 

Because often the creditors carry an undue influence on decisions about the company's restructuring. Also, it's difficult to both attract and retain the talent necessary to restructure a company in Ch. 11.

 

---

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And for those of you still unconvinced, I have exactly one word for you:

 

 

DELPHI

 

 

How many years has Delphi been in bankruptcy again? Of course, Visteon has not done much bettter as it's about to be delisted from NYSE and put on pink sheet, but it's not in bankruptcy.

[mike_in_va]

Pre-Arranged bankruptcy is the best of a bad lot of ideas in my opinion. Bridge loans without strings attached could have wasted taxpayer money, loans with strings attached were looking like too much government control. An unplanned "disorderly" bankruptcy could have all sorts of unexpected consequences, so bankruptcy with someone watching over seems to be the best compromise. Pre-planned bankruptcy dosen't guarantee a good, or even decent outcome, it's just gives the best shot at controlling the damage. It's kind of like having one of those staged implosions instead of letting a building collapse on its own.

[MarkFive]

I shouldn't touch this, but I will.....

 

So this is a FORD site, with it's employees. A site where you pretty much know the subject matter and everything associated with it. Sallary's # of people, product, etc.

 

BUT THEN PEOPLE COME ON AND MAKE A GENERALIZATION OF SOMETHING THEY KNOW ABOUT, BUT REFUSE TO BACK THAT UP WITH A NAME OR A LINK, BECAUSE IT SERVES THEIR PURPOSE TO SAY SOMETHING WITHOUT DATA.

 

COWARD is about all i can say to your post.

 

I'm not a Ford employee but I drive a Ford so if I have comments based on the "process" of Chapter 11 bankruptcy, am I not allowed to post here because I am not an employee? My brother is and my father was. Does that get me the keys to the message board? Are you the moderator? Do you want to be the moderator?

 

Thank you for calling me a coward. Your use of capital letters was effective. You might use the Bold option for added dramatic effect.

[zipnzap]

Your mind-reading skills are as faulty as your knowledge of automotive history and how this business works. Not to mention who is opposed to the bailout (hint - it isn't just the Republicans).

 

If you bothered to read my posts - might help to brush up on your reading comprehension skills - you will see that we drive a Ford.

 

Yes, Pontiac and Saturn will probably bite the dust. And based on what they are putting out, I say good riddance.

 

Except for maybe the Astra, what's wrong with Saturn's lineup?

[snooter]

we lost the last dodge dealer in st louis a few days ago for people not being able to secure credit (25% of walkin cannot get credit)...dodge ram plant in fenton also shut down until some time next month...last i heard dodge was down 28% in sales in the first 11 days of december...not sure where ford stands but i suspect down...i remember the figure like 20% or something...all bitching and bemoaning aside..nobody will buy a car from a bankrupt company...union tried to throw up oldsmobile as an example which after 7 or 8 years is a joke unto itself..but there is validity to that reasoning in my judgement...orderly bankruptcy seems like the only way to go..my personal feeling is giving them cash would be a bad mistake...big 3 have not proved anything to me in the last 20 years expect their ability to make a very very good truck....guess we find out tomorrow..looks like its goin be a shitty CHRISTmas for a lot of kids with dads who work in an auto plant

[Critic]

I'm not a Ford employee but I drive a Ford so if I have comments based on the "process" of Chapter 11 bankruptcy, am I not allowed to post here because I am not an employee? My brother is and my father was. Does that get me the keys to the message board? Are you the moderator? Do you want to be the moderator?

 

Thank you for calling me a coward. Your use of capital letters was effective. You might use the Bold option for added dramatic effect.

Check what forum you post in is the answer

[Critic]

we lost the last dodge dealer in st louis a few days ago for people not being able to secure credit (25% of walkin cannot get credit)...dodge ram plant in fenton also shut down until some time next month...last i heard dodge was down 28% in sales in the first 11 days of december...not sure where ford stands but i suspect down...i remember the figure like 20% or something...all bitching and bemoaning aside..nobody will buy a car from a bankrupt company...union tried to throw up oldsmobile as an example which after 7 or 8 years is a joke unto itself..but there is validity to that reasoning in my judgement...orderly bankruptcy seems like the only way to go..my personal feeling is giving them cash would be a bad mistake...big 3 have not proved anything to me in the last 20 years expect their ability to make a very very good truck....guess we find out tomorrow..looks like its goin be a shitty CHRISTmas for a lot of kids with dads who work in an auto plant

Who are you and what have you done to snooter?

[MarkFive]

Check what forum you post in is the answer

 

The bold is very nice. Its darker than the usual bold, yet relays your point rather effectively. Bravo!