RichardJensen Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I think that you could place the transit body over the Frame of the E350 or E450. What's up with this Biker? I thought you wanted the Transit body on a Transit frame???????????????? Can't you keep your arguments consistent? BTW: They're both asinine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I mean, let's face it Biker, it suits your prejudices to assert that the E-Series hasn't changed. Despite the fact that it's grown to be class 5 certifiable (20k GVWR) from being little more than a lightweight family hauler in 1977. Because it has the same overall dimensions over the last 30+ years (just like the Transit) it suits your purpose to assert that it has not been improved. Would you make the same argument about the Transit, I wonder? Would you argue that, because it's had the same shape for the last 30+ years, it hasn't been improved, and that it's time for a change? I wonder...... After all, if the E-Series is due for a refresh just because its boxy shape hasn't changed at all, then isn't the Transit just as due? Maybe I should start asserting the opposite, as a way to counter your hopelessly ridiculous argument that "because it looks the same, nothing in it has ever been changed." And twintornados: Yes, they could probably drop the Twin-I-beam. Doing so wouldn't deleteriously affect axle rating, and it wouldn't necessitate changing the E-Series form factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Let's design an all new frame, and alienate loyal customers to save a few pennies on windshield washer reservoirs. Wow. I'm glad you DON'T work for Ford. I honestly believe that any redesign of Econoline will take those existing "hard points" and incorporate them into the new design, so that the upfitters that make a lot of profit from Econoline will continue to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I honestly believe that any redesign of Econoline will take those existing "hard points" and incorporate them into the new design, so that the upfitters that make a lot of profit from Econoline will continue to do so. Bingo...the econoline is the Panther of the Van industry.....except its one hell of a lot more profitable...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 See the thing is, the E-series, as the starting point for countless end products, has a 'form factor' that hasn't changed in decades. It's not as though the contents of the form factor have been left static (400+lb ft engines and 20,000lb GVWRs were out of the question in 1976.) Rather, the shape in which the contents are delivered has been left static. --- Similarly, the Transit 'form factor' in Europe hasn't changed much. From 1986 to now, the shape and dimensions of the van at the B pillar have been, basically, static. Why? Because the Transit is used by a number of body-builders for RVs, delivery vans, etc. --- For me, this isn't a matter of preferring a US design over an EU design. It's a matter of demanding substantial justification for abandoning an established form factor. And saving a few pennies on windshield washer resevoirs is not substantial. --- For Biker, I can't help but feel such dogged insistence on change for change's sake amounts to little more than a desire to feel like he's in Europe while stuck in Cleveland. Why else insist that the Transit should replace the E-Series entire, instead of simply the E-Series products that it is superior to (the wagons)? Either that or it's the worst in "It comes from Europe, therefore it's better" thinking. Which is especially ironic, since according to Wikipedia, the current Transit was designed in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipnzap Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Immediately. The new grille on it looks like . Yeah, that new front end is horrible. Unlike the F-series, the Econoline does not look well with a 'butch' look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Yeah, that new front end is horrible. I totally disagree. The new E-series makes a really nice ambulance. Not so fond of the actual van....but when did it ever really look good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I dunno. I think the early models of this generation ('77-80ish) had kind of a nicely detailed look to them that wasn't at all ugly: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Chrome package makes ALL the difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipnzap Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I totally disagree. The new E-series makes a really nice ambulance. It looks okay on the chassis/cab, but on something like the Club Wagon, the proportions look all wrong. Not so fond of the actual van....but when did it ever really look good? I think the 90's-and-up model Club Wagons, especially when they received the oval grille, look nice. Sort of like a premium vehicle, especially when they're less than 3 years old. I'm not so fond of the current new one though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 See the thing is, the E-series, as the starting point for countless end products, has a 'form factor' that hasn't changed in decades. It's not as though the contents of the form factor have been left static (400+lb ft engines and 20,000lb GVWRs were out of the question in 1976.) Rather, the shape in which the contents are delivered has been left static. --- Similarly, the Transit 'form factor' in Europe hasn't changed much. From 1986 to now, the shape and dimensions of the van at the B pillar have been, basically, static. Why? Because the Transit is used by a number of body-builders for RVs, delivery vans, etc. --- For me, this isn't a matter of preferring a US design over an EU design. It's a matter of demanding substantial justification for abandoning an established form factor. And saving a few pennies on windshield washer resevoirs is not substantial. --- For Biker, I can't help but feel such dogged insistence on change for change's sake amounts to little more than a desire to feel like he's in Europe while stuck in Cleveland. Why else insist that the Transit should replace the E-Series entire, instead of simply the E-Series products that it is superior to (the wagons)? Either that or it's the worst in "It comes from Europe, therefore it's better" thinking. you hate everything from europe. simply because it is not designed here??? this was your arguement about why the mondeo was not fit for the Us market. right? anyway; the reason we are going to One ford is to pool resources and reduce development costs and time to market,of new products. Ford is replacing the E-series with a global archtechture based on the european transit\ I don't think you not knowing the specifics can discount the posibilty that ford may replace the heavy duty e-series along wiht the lighter duty E-series. they may not have a choice the core market for the E-series is still the van market, not the cutaways. can ford justify the costs of supporting 2 different archtechtures? Will the resources be spread too thin to support the lower volume E-series? long term the archtechtures will be merged. It is not IF but WHEN. you don't honestly think that ford will contiue to make the same E-series forever, it must end someday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 you don't honestly think that ford will contiue to make the same E-series forever, it must end someday NO, the current Econoline must stay on FOREVER! The Econoline will have it's own Econoline Mafia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 NO, the current Econoline must stay on FOREVER! The Econoline will have it's own Econoline Mafia! No doubt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 No doubt! In all seriousness, though, I'm on the fence with this one. While I believe it'd be nice to have something different (i.e. updated/modern/etc), I also see the argument of those who mentione the upfitters, etc who make things for the E-series. All of them would have to modify their offerings for a new Transconoline, which could alienate some of them and thus some buyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) you hate everything from europe. simply because it is not designed here??? this was your arguement about why the mondeo was not fit for the Us market. right? the core market for the E-series is still the van market, not the cutaways. you don't honestly think that ford will contiue to make the same E-series forever, it must end someday 1) I like the Fiesta. A lot. It's everything the Mondeo isn't, along with being well executed (which the Mondeo is). Besides, if you believe Wikipedia, this generation of Transits was designed in the US. Of course, I expect you to continue to characterize me instead of reading my posts. 2) No. The core market for the E-Series (and the most profitable and the most stable market--at least until the last year) has been the cab/chassis & cutaway market. Don't believe me? Count how many E-Series derived work vehicles (ambulance, shuttle bus, RV, delivery vehicle, panel truck) you see on any given day vs. panel & window vans. 3) There's no reason to change the E-Series form factor, regardless of what the E-Series looks like. The form factor for nearly ALL cab/chassis vehicles is static or changes so slowly over time as to be practically unnoticeable. Go take a tape measure to a 1989 Class 6 Ford cab/chassis. Now do the same on a 2008 F670. You'll be blown away by how many things (cab width, frame width, wheelbase, cab height) ARE THE SAME. And it's not because the 2008 model is 'basically the same' as the 1989. You need to look at the E350 & E450 as tiny Class 6-8 vehicles, not as overgrown passenger cars. Edited February 12, 2009 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) I believe it'd be nice to have something different (i.e. updated/modern/etc) 1) The E-series modernity is under the skin. Where it counts for E-series buyers. 2) your concern (and Biker's) is purely optical. Biker wants to look at an ambulance built off the Transit frame because it would make him feel all warm and fuzzy and Europy Doesn't matter that the current E-Series form factor is closer to the GM form factor than it is to any Transit that is likely to be salable in Europe. That means that it would likely be cheaper for any body-builder to switch to Chevy Express vans and fudge the numbers for capability. Edited February 12, 2009 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 1) The E-series modernity is under the skin. Where it counts for E-series buyers. 2) your concern (and Biker's) is purely optical. Biker wants to look at an ambulance built off the Transit frame because it would make him feel all warm and fuzzy. Doesn't matter that the current E-Series form factor is closer to the GM form factor than it is to any Transit that is likely to be salable in Europe. I understand that, that's why I said, I can also see it from an upfitter/buyers perspective. I just said it'd be nice to have something more modern looking, but to me it's not really a necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I understand that, that's why I said, I can also see it from an upfitter/buyers perspective. I just said it'd be nice to have something more modern looking, but to me it's not really a necessity. Not much you can do with the space they've got. It's just like semi trucks. About all the 'design' you can put on a semi truck comes between the A pillar and the bumper, and if you look at the E-Series, that doesn't give you much space to work with at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Not much you can do with the space they've got. It's just like semi trucks. About all the 'design' you can put on a semi truck comes between the A pillar and the bumper, and if you look at the E-Series, that doesn't give you much space to work with at all. I do suppose that's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 1) The E-series modernity is under the skin. Where it counts for E-series buyers. As long as you don't look at the front suspension..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 As long as you don't look at the front suspension..... Meh. Still has class leading front axle rating....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 1) The E-series modernity is under the skin. Where it counts for E-series buyers. 2) your concern (and Biker's) is purely optical. Biker wants to look at an ambulance built off the Transit frame because it would make him feel all warm and fuzzy and Europy Doesn't matter that the current E-Series form factor is closer to the GM form factor than it is to any Transit that is likely to be salable in Europe. That means that it would likely be cheaper for any body-builder to switch to Chevy Express vans and fudge the numbers for capability. What gets me warm and fussy, is having you reply at 1:43am in the morning. :lol: I don't Care, keep it, leave it, it is a very small part of what ford is trying to do with the transit, and Transit Connect. the E-series is thoroughly modern with its Twin I-beam suspension. C-section Frame, Power recirculating ball steering, I love how the really modern features from the F-series's frame have missed the E-series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 What gets me warm and fussy, is having you reply at 1:43am in the morning. :lol: I don't Care, keep it, leave it, it is a very small part of what ford is trying to do with the transit, and Transit Connect. the E-series is thoroughly modern with its Twin I-beam suspension. C-section Frame, Power recirculating ball steering, I love how the really modern features from the F-series's frame have missed the E-series. Are we forgetting the F-series Super Duty also still uses a C-channel frame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Are we forgetting the F-series Super Duty also still uses a C-channel frame? nobody likes you , you have no friends. But no one is saying that the SD is thoroughly modern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 nobody likes you , you have no friends. But no one is saying that the SD is thoroughly modern. Yeah, but I don't think anyone will point to the C-Channel frame on the Super Duty as being a weak point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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