Future of Crown Vic, G.Mrq, Town Car

[NickF1011]

This entire argument is ridiculous.

 

For the 17,000th time: The Panthers were ALREADY being neglected BEFORE the D3's came about. Ford saw them as not worth investing in, so they went a different direction when they decided to pursue large cars again with D3. In other words, no matter what happened, Ford was NOT going to update the Panthers. Cry a river about the Panthers' demise. It was going to be forced into its grave whether D3 existed or not. So to blame D3 for the death of the Panther is just misguided fist-shaking.

 

Beyond that, this argument is tired and silly.

 

 

As for the Panther's profitability, again, any profitability it still maintains rests only in its lack of updates. Update it now and any profit it still generates likely goes out the window. You can't have the Panther be the most profitable vehicle in Ford's lineup AND expect it to be entirely up-to-date. Those two scenarios simply aren't compatible. (Why you even mentioned D3 in terms of profits I have no idea. I never claimed D3 turned a profit at all. I guess it's more D3 Whipping Boy mentality.)

 

I think the fact that this section of the forums has TWO whole threads in it speaks volumes. (Even though the Taurus section only has 3 :lol:)

Edited April 8, 2009 by NickF1011

[Cocheese]

Still want to see evidence of this. It's running on one shift. It can't be raking in money hand over fist like it used to do.

 

Hand over fist? Probably not. But making money? You betcha.

 

How much money is Chicago or Oakville making for the company? Any?

 

Show me the numbers on all of Fords plants. I guarantee you STAP is near, if not at, the top.

 

Let's take this one at a time:

 

1. I doubt whether the D3's being successful or not has anything to do with whether or not the Panthers are successful.

 

2. I doubt any money spent on D3 was diverted away from any possible GRWD platform. I think gas prices, CAFE, and sales of other models in that class did far more damage to GRWD's hopes than tepid Taurus sales ever could.

 

3. Finally, I don't see any evidence that Ford attempted to boost D3 sales by limiting Panther sales. The only "evidence" of this would be the death of the retail Crown Victoria. I think the CV's retail version saw its death because it was a waste of time to continue marketing what nobody was buying in the first place. The CV would be gone retail side, regardless of what else Ford was selling at the time. People just weren't buying it. That's not D3's fault.

 

Mullaly has stated that product programs from here out need to be self-sustaining. If D3 was supposedly pulling all of this money from other programs, Mullaly would probably have ordered the entire program cancelled by now.

 

D3 is a convenient scapegoat, but realistically, it probably has absolutely nothing to do with the Panther. As I said before already: The Panther was being neglected long before D3 was even considered.

 

1. the D3's have not been successful. The Panthers have and are (in business, I determine success by the amount of profit that is generated for the company).

 

2. Your opinion. My parents own a house and a cottage. If their house was costing them more money in up keep then they had planned or expected, there would be less money to spend on maintaining the cottage. Ford has dumped piles of money into the D3's and not seen any significant return. With money going out, and no money coming in, it means budgets for other projects get trimmed or axed. How far up the GRWD project was on the Ford wish list is anyone's guess (neither one of us truly knows). But the D3 money pit has undoubtedly had an effect on the company.

 

3. You contradicted yourself. By limiting the CV to fleet only (no matter where you think the sales were going), they took away potential customers. And when the customer couldn't get a CV, they were pushed into a D3.

 

I have a newspaper clipping in front of me from the Toronto Star Automotive section (it doesn't have the date on it, but it's a few years old). Fred Cherney from Scarbrough wrote a letter to the paper asking why the Crown Victoria is only available in fleet here in Canada. His letter was answered by Kerri Stoakley, public affairs manager with Ford of Canada. Her response...

 

"If Mr. Cherney enjoys the styling and handling of the Crown Victoria, I would encourage him to take a look at both the 2007 Ford Five Hundred and the all-new, redesigned 2008 Ford Taurus."

 

Basically Mr. Cherney, we know you want a full frame rear wheel drive V8, but we're not going to give you one even though we have one. Instead, take this uni-body front wheel drive V6.

 

Nick, they killed sales of the Crown Vic to get people into the D3's.

[matthewq4b]

This entire argument is ridiculous.

 

For the 17,000th time: The Panthers were ALREADY being neglected BEFORE the D3's came about. Ford saw them as not worth investing in, so they went a different direction when they decided to pursue large cars again with D3. In other words, no matter what happened, Ford was NOT going to update the Panthers. Cry a river about the Panthers' demise. It was going to be forced into its grave whether D3 existed or not. So to blame D3 for the death of the Panther is just misguided fist-shaking.

 

Beyond that, this argument is tired and silly.

 

 

As for the Panther's profitability, again, any profitability it still maintains rests only in its lack of updates. Update it now and any profit it still generates likely goes out the window. You can't have the Panther be the most profitable vehicle in Ford's lineup AND expect it to be entirely up-to-date. Those two scenarios simply aren't compatible.

 

 

 

 

So when you get proven wrong and the points that YOU brought up get countered you throw a hissy fit.

Real Mature.

 

The TC was updated in 97 the year before the Volvo purchase was finalized. The same Engineering team was supposed to be doing the work on a new CV GM, After the Volvo purchase was finalized in 98 this was canceled in anticipation of replacing all the Panthers with the then new Volvo P2 chassis (morphed in to D3). The CV and the GM alone were still posting almost 240K yearly sales at the time of the Volvo purchase. Toss in the TC in there and the platform was seeing over 335K yearly sales, numbers the D3's combined I believe have never met.

 

Some work had begun on the panther update and we seen part of this update in the revised chassis for 2002 (MY 2003) but due to funds no longer available for the comprehensive update the Panthers only got the chassis upgrades instead of the full meal deal.

 

The decision was sound in principle to toss toss the Panther and replace it with the more modern AWD capable P2/D3..... but they did not take in to consideration the very things that had been keeping the Panther sales strong. And just considered the segment and not the vehicle it's self. And this is where Ford failed.

 

And as for being the most profitable and most up to date in a line up. Well lets this was exactly the case for the 92 CV GM and will most likly be the case for the new F150. So ya might wanna try that one again.

 

 

And if it is ridiculous it is because YOU made it so and continue to comment on the subject with information that is not correct. If you do not like it then do not comment on it. Not a difficult thing to do.

 

 

 

 

Matthew

[NickF1011]

3. You contradicted yourself. By limiting the CV to fleet only (no matter where you think the sales were going), they took away potential customers. And when the customer couldn't get a CV, they were pushed into a D3.

 

The CV was not limited to fleets to push them into D3's. The fleet move probably would have occurred whether D3 existed or not. Why? Because it was a waste of time and money to continue offering a product retail when nobody was buying it in significant enough quantities anymore to justify it. Did D3 benefit because of it? Probably some, but that wasn't the reasoning behind it.

 

 

So when you get proven wrong and the points that YOU brought up get countered you throw a hissy fit.

Real Mature.

 

Hissy fit? Mmmm. Okay??

 

The TC was updated in 97 the year before the Volvo purchase was finalized. The same Engineering team was supposed to be doing the work on a new CV GM, After the Volvo purchase was finalized in 98 this was canceled in anticipation of replacing all the Panthers with the then new Volvo P2 chassis (morphed in to D3). The CV and the GM alone were still posting almost 240K yearly sales at the time of the Volvo purchase. Toss in the TC in there and the platform was seeing over 335K yearly sales, numbers the D3's combined I believe have never met.

 

Those sales were dropping every year even prior to the '97 model year. The Panthers were dropping in popularity even then, which is probably why they decided to cancel investment in them in the first place. It's quite a leap to go from a planned update being cancelled to saying that it was because of a model that didn't even end up surfacing until well over 5 years later. If you have some sort of reference to this actually happening, I'd love to see it.

 

And as for being the most profitable and most up to date in a line up. Well lets this was exactly the case for the 92 CV GM and will most likly be the case for the new F150. So ya might wanna try that one again.

 

Comparing profit margins of fullsize pickups to cars is ridiculous. Try coming up with a more valid comparison than that. (I don't know of any reference to the '92 CV and GM being ultra-profitable either immediately upon launch. Those claims didn't surface until much later if I recall.)

 

 

And if it is ridiculous it is because YOU made it so and continue to comment on the subject with information that is not correct. If you do not like it then do not comment on it. Not a difficult thing to do.

 

What "incorrect" information have I posted? I am just countering YOUR speculation with my OWN speculation. That's all this entire thread has been. Guessing that this happened because that happened and this didn't happen because that happened instead. All speculation. I've seen no actual evidence here of much of anything.

 

I want a new GRWD platform. You should want a new GRWD platform. Panther is not going to somehow morph into GRWD. I'm just living up to the reality of the situation here: Panther is not going to see another significant update. Because of that, I advocate burying it so we can all just move on to something better.

 

I guess what it all boils down to for me is: Why is there such avid support for such an outdated vehicle? Yes. It was great. Yes. It did make a ton of money. Yes. It was successful. But those are all past tense. It's sort of like me defending my '97 Cobra to a '10 GT500. Do I like my Cobra? Sure. Am I glad Ford isn't still trying to sell them? You bet!

Edited April 8, 2009 by NickF1011

[matthewq4b]

The CV was not limited to fleets to push them into D3's. The fleet move probably would have occurred whether D3 existed or not. Why? Because it was a waste of time and money to continue offering a product retail when nobody was buying it in significant enough quantities anymore to justify it. Did D3 benefit because of it? Probably some, but that wasn't the reasoning behind it.

 

 

Uh ya they were in this market the CV GM are only Fleet if you want a full size Ford non luxury sedan what is your choice ? by Default D3. what do you call that ?

 

 

 

 

Those sales were dropping every year even prior to the '97 model year. The Panthers were dropping in popularity even then, which is probably why they decided to cancel investment in them in the first place. It's quite a leap to go from a planned update being canceled to saying that it was because of a model that didn't even end up surfacing until well over 5 years later. If you have some sort of reference to this actually happening, I'd love to see it.

 

The sales of ALL domestic cars were dropping due to increased pressure of the imports and the rise of the SUV in 1998 98 99 and 00 01 etc the TC was the best selling luxury car in NA.

In 98 99 00 the GM was the best selling full size car in the U.S

 

The drop n sales were not just limited to the Panthers. But all domestic carts were experiencing a with drawl of sales. And by 2000 the CV GM were sporting 10 year old body's so some sales losses are expected just due to that.

 

 

And Again you can post the documents stating that.

 

 

I have first hand knowledge from a close friend of mine that worked with Ford Canada since the 70's. Who do you think was the fist on the board to say the Marauder was a go for production ????? Again do not believe it if you do not want I do not care . And just because someone else put it in print on referable source on the net makes does not make information verifiable either.

 

 

 

Comparing profit margins of full size pickups to cars is ridiculous. Try coming up with a more valid comparison than that. (I don't know of any reference to the '92 CV and GM being ultra-profitable either immediately upon launch. Those claims didn't surface until much later if I recall.)

 

 

It is not ridiculous The Panther is basically a light truck chassis with a car body any way.

 

And YOU are the one that said that said " you can not have the most up to date vehicle be the most profitable"

And I mearly pointed out that was not true.

 

So changing your tune now ?

 

 

 

What "incorrect" information have I posted? I am just countering YOUR speculation with my OWN speculation. That's all this entire thread has been. Guessing that this happened because that happened and this didn't happen because that happened instead. All speculation. I've seen no actual evidence here of much of anything.

 

 

Your replies are based on opinion with NO supporting fact or even supporting circumstantial evidence.

 

Naturally I am not going to name names or post documents here. BON has rules against that stuff you know.

 

 

 

I want a new GRWD platform. You should want a new GRWD platform. Panther is not going to somehow morph into GRWD. I'm just living up to the reality of the situation here: Panther is not going to see another significant update. Because of that, I advocate burying it so we can all just move on to something better.

 

 

Tell me where did i say that the panther had to morph in to the NEW GRWD? I never did. any where now DID I ? I contesting the point that the D3 was the right thing to do instead of updating the Panther 8 or 10 years ago. We all know the current panther is not going to see anouther significant update the chassis is 30 years old.

 

NO ONE is contesting that. GET OVER IT ALREADY.

 

What Ford needs to do is REPLACE IT with something Comparable the D3 IS not and HAS not been that vehicle. And the sales have reflected that.

 

 

 

I guess what it all boils down to for me is: Why is there such avid support for such an outdated vehicle? Yes. It was great. Yes. It did make a ton of money. Yes. It was successful. But those are all past tense. It's sort of like me defending my '97 Cobra to a '10 GT500. Do I like my Cobra? Sure. Am I glad Ford isn't still trying to sell them? You bet!

 

 

It is not support for the Vehicle it's self but what it represents and it's ability's

 

 

Glad you bring up the Mustang.

 

What do you think would have happened if Ford dropped the 87 Update and instead ran with the Probe trying to convince Mustang owners and the traditional Stang buyer that this is just as good and let the Stang languish and be neglected in the hopes that the traditional Mustang buyer would eventually move on and buy Probes ?

 

Think you would have got a similar back lash form t he faithful? You bet your ass you would have.

 

That is exactly what ford did with the CV GM . What you have failed to understand is the CV & GM have a loyal following as rabid as the Stang not to the same volume but just as rabid. The CV GM have had the MOST loyal buyers of ANY car in NA second place for a car...... the Stang.

 

This is just not about the Panther Chassis the GM CV or TC it is what these cars are capable of and what they represent, and that is not that dissimilar from why people love the Mustang. We are all individuals every one has different tastes For some car guys what does it for them is P/U trucks others the Stang some it is the riced Honda Civic and for a select few it is the traditional full size RWD NA sedan.

 

Panther guys on the board for the most part do not go and rip on the Stang or it's out dated SRA or Knock the archaic SFA and the 45 year old Twin I beam on the Super Duty's. But it seems to be ok to rip on the CV GM on this board. Yes they are archaic out dated and a throw back. As is the Mustang in some regards But that is also some of their appeal. ALL OF US want a new full size RWD sedan. All we ask is that is it as good as the Panther was and has been. And that is a pretty damn big order to fill considering what the Panther has achieved in 30 years of continuous production. So excuse us if we are skeptical.

 

The Panther chassis has been an incredible feat of engineering just as the original Fox chassis was.

The Panther chassis is tough as nails and damn near unbreakable this is one of the attributes that the following love. And there is great concern with in the loyal that this will be lost. Just as there was great concern with in the Stang community over the DC2. Difference is they were not being ingnored or pushed in to a wannabe poser.

 

So excuse us if we voice our displeasure at Ford for their stupidity. And being pushed in to a wanna be.

 

Maybe YOU and the rest should give the same respect to the CV GM crowd that you do the loyal owners followers lovers , of other Ford Vehicles.

 

 

Matthew

Edited April 8, 2009 by matthewq4b

[96towncarcartier]

I've owned a number of Panthers - and I too think Ford chose to spend the money that should have gone to the Panther on a cobbed up old Volvo platform.

 

I'd never buy one, and apparently the market is saying the same thing. When the Panther dies, Ford really doesn't sell much that interests me, unless you like rebadges and copies of Japanese cars.

 

Why buy a copy when you can buy an original with a better reputation, and better resale value?

 

 

you need to get your facts straight... Ford INCREASED market share for the SECOND quarter in a ROW... sales are increasing, following the revelation that Ford quality and reliability are EVERY BIT equal to Honduh and Toyoduh, and will soon surpass both of them.

 

Let's not forget too, Mercury is #2 in reliability, only after Lexus. Ford doesn't need a bailout; Ford also makes more vehicles with better gas mileages, has more vehicles with 5 star crash ratings, and the Fusion/Milan/MKZ beats the foreign cars in reliability.

 

And if you REALLY want to know who copies who... Every swept design, every aerodynamic headlight, every car with semi-flush glass windows, every car with "cockpit" style interior packaging... all those features that are made in cars overseas... are actually the ones doing the copying, see: Each of those features were FIRST produced by the Ford Taurus. 1985.

 

So who's got the better reputation? Hmmmmm......

Edited April 9, 2009 by 96TownCarCartier

[NickF1011]

Uh ya they were in this market the CV GM are only Fleet if you want a full size Ford non luxury sedan what is your choice ? by Default D3. what do you call that ?

 

I call that the D3 benefiting from a decision Ford was going to make either way. D3 or not, the CV was going fleet-only. That was its destiny. Don't blame the D3 for it.

 

And YOU are the one that said that said " you can not have the most up to date vehicle be the most profitable"

And I mearly pointed out that was not true.

 

So changing your tune now ?

 

No, I said the PANTHER can't be the most up to date and most profitable. Vehicles with such huge built-in profit margins like fullsize trucks are a whole other ball of wax.

 

Naturally I am not going to name names or post documents here. BON has rules against that stuff you know.

 

How convenient.

 

Tell me where did i say that the panther had to morph in to the NEW GRWD? I never did. any where now DID I ? I contesting the point that the D3 was the right thing to do instead of updating the Panther 8 or 10 years ago. We all know the current panther is not going to see anouther significant update the chassis is 30 years old.

 

NO ONE is contesting that. GET OVER IT ALREADY.

 

What Ford needs to do is REPLACE IT with something Comparable the D3 IS not and HAS not been that vehicle. And the sales have reflected that.

 

Well we are in complete agreement here then, aren't we? Ford needs a replacement for their full-size platform. That's all I want too.

 

 

Glad you bring up the Mustang.

 

What do you think would have happened if Ford dropped the 87 Update and instead ran with the Probe trying to convince Mustang owners and the traditional Stang buyer that this is just as good and let the Stang languish and be neglected in the hopes that the traditional Mustang buyer would eventually move on and buy Probes ?

 

Think you would have got a similar back lash form t he faithful? You bet your ass you would have.

 

That is exactly what ford did with the CV GM . What you have failed to understand is the CV & GM have a loyal following as rabid as the Stang not to the same volume but just as rabid. The CV GM have had the MOST loyal buyers of ANY car in NA second place for a car...... the Stang.

 

This is just not about the Panther Chassis the GM CV or TC it is what these cars are capable of and what they represent, and that is not that dissimilar from why people love the Mustang. We are all individuals every one has different tastes For some car guys what does it for them is P/U trucks others the Stang some it is the riced Honda Civic and for a select few it is the traditional full size RWD NA sedan.

 

Well, frankly, I would rather have a FWD/AWD coupe than to still have Ford pumping out Fox bodies over a decade after its last full redesign.

 

Maybe YOU and the rest should give the same respect to the CV GM crowd that you do the loyal owners followers lovers , of other Ford Vehicles.

 

It had my respect for years. But the longer it sticks around, the more it looks like a pro athlete sticking around for far too many years after his prime. It starts to get embarrassing after awhile and reflects poorly on the rest of the legecy it created.

Edited April 9, 2009 by NickF1011

[matthewq4b]

Let's not forget too, Mercury is #2 in reliability, only after Lexus. Ford doesn't need a bailout; Ford also makes more vehicles with better gas mileages, has more vehicles with 5 star crash ratings, and the Fusion/Milan/MKZ beats the foreign cars in reliability.

 

 

Mercury landed this only because of the GM the GM was/is reporting 50 percent less defects than the other Mercury vehicles. If the GM had been cut from the line up years back this would not be the case.

 

 

And if you REALLY want to know who copies who... Every swept design, every aerodynamic headlight, every car with semi-flush glass windows, every car with "cockpit" style interior packaging... all those features that are made in cars overseas... are actually the ones doing the copying, see: Each of those features were FIRST produced by the Ford Taurus. 1985.

 

So who's got the better reputation? Hmmmmm......

 

Actually these developments came from Audi and others It was Ford that copied. But they had the foresight to do so. What Ford did do with the Taurus/Sable was to take interior ergonomics to a whole new level.

 

Matthew

[Bored of Pisteon]

Until a D3 vehicle reaches 404,000 miles like the recently retired (livery vehicle) 2001 Lincoln Town Car that I just bought. I don't want to hear another word about how reliable D3 vehicles are in the long term.

 

I will state as fact, like I did in the past. I did test drive a 2005 Montego when I was still in the market for a new car. I liked how it handled on dirt roads and the seating. But we are talking LONG TERM here. Not some vehicle just to buy and hope the residual value holds. I could care less about that!

[Cocheese]

The CV was not limited to fleets to push them into D3's. The fleet move probably would have occurred whether D3 existed or not. Why? Because it was a waste of time and money to continue offering a product retail when nobody was buying it in significant enough quantities anymore to justify it. Did D3 benefit because of it? Probably some, but that wasn't the reasoning behind it.

 

In all honesty, because I really don't know, what financial advantages did Ford get by limiting the CV/GM to fleet only vehicles?

 

To the best of my knowledge, "civilian" use CV/GM are still being produced (ie, non Police Interceptor or non Taxi) by Ford for sales to rental agencies and Arabic customers, so clearly they have the ability and are still building a civilian brand CV/GM. It's not as if we are asking to have a couple Marauders available to us. I understand why Ford won't update these cars or even advertise them, because that will cost them money that they very well may never see a return on. But if I walked into a dealership and wanted a Crown Victoria LX, why can't Ford build me one? I'm not asking Ford to keep 10 of these things on every dealership lot, but simply allowing those customers who want one the ability to have one.

 

In my opinion, if a customer wanted a CV/GM, and couldn't get one, they'd have one of three options. Either go to a company that offers a vehicle similar to the Panther. Buy a used Panther from where ever they could find one. Or stay loyal to Ford and settle for a D3. The first two do nothing to help Ford's bottom line, and the third clearly puts sales into the D3's account that would not have been there if the Panther was available.

 

Sure, the sales on the CV/GM may have been declining (most likely because of the lack of updates), but it's clear limiting their sales helped the D3's.

[NickF1011]

In all honesty, because I really don't know, what financial advantages did Ford get by limiting the CV/GM to fleet only vehicles?

 

Well, at the very least, dealers were probably pleased that there was one less vehicle line they had to keep in stock. You have flooring costs. You have shipping costs to send vehicles to dealers that might not sell. A vehicle just reaches a point of diminishing returns where it just doesn't make sense to keep a retail allocation. The Panthers certainly aren't the first time an automaker has done it and it surely won't be the last I'm sure. I know the Panthers were a bit more successful on the retail side in Canada than they are in the states these last couple of years, and the GM is still offered retail here. Probably not for long though.

Edited April 10, 2009 by NickF1011

[NickF1011]

Until a D3 vehicle reaches 404,000 miles like the recently retired (livery vehicle) 2001 Lincoln Town Car that I just bought. I don't want to hear another word about how reliable D3 vehicles are in the long term.

 

I will state as fact, like I did in the past. I did test drive a 2005 Montego when I was still in the market for a new car. I liked how it handled on dirt roads and the seating. But we are talking LONG TERM here. Not some vehicle just to buy and hope the residual value holds. I could care less about that!

 

Well it's a bit too soon to say in the case of the D3's, but basically any well-maintained vehicle these days is capable of lasting several hundred thousand miles. The reality of it though? Automakers don't care about the LONG TERM, at least not so long as to think if a vehicle can run for 400,000 miles. This doesn't just go for the D3's. It goes for all automakers with all of their vehicles. Very, very few people own a car that long anymore.

[tcoleman2006]

In all honesty, because I really don't know, what financial advantages did Ford get by limiting the CV/GM to fleet only vehicles?

 

To the best of my knowledge, "civilian" use CV/GM are still being produced (ie, non Police Interceptor or non Taxi) by Ford for sales to rental agencies and Arabic customers, so clearly they have the ability and are still building a civilian brand CV/GM. It's not as if we are asking to have a couple Marauders available to us. I understand why Ford won't update these cars or even advertise them, because that will cost them money that they very well may never see a return on. But if I walked into a dealership and wanted a Crown Victoria LX, why can't Ford build me one? I'm not asking Ford to keep 10 of these things on every dealership lot, but simply allowing those customers who want one the ability to have one.

 

In my opinion, if a customer wanted a CV/GM, and couldn't get one, they'd have one of three options. Either go to a company that offers a vehicle similar to the Panther. Buy a used Panther from where ever they could find one. Or stay loyal to Ford and settle for a D3. The first two do nothing to help Ford's bottom line, and the third clearly puts sales into the D3's account that would not have been there if the Panther was available.

 

Sure, the sales on the CV/GM may have been declining (most likely because of the lack of updates), but it's clear limiting their sales helped the D3's.

 

Ford is limiting the Panther sales slowly over time and also requiring a premium for special orders to select buyers. By limiting the sales a bit at a time they hope to build justification for ending production of the entire panther line due to declining sales. The plan is to stop producing the entire panther platform (CV/GM/TC) all at once, in one location sometime in 2011. The economic life span of the panther cars lasts to long for Ford to keep producing them. They want you to buy their other cars that will wear out faster require more frequent maintenance and need replacing sooner! Henry Ford would have been proud to see how durable, reliable and safe the panthers have become today. So much talk today about making cars safer yet no one at Ford recognises or ever advertises the standout safety feature of Body-On-Frame construction that makes all the panther's so durable and reliable and safe. It will be a sad day when the final decision to end the panther line is announced. It will bring to an end yet another chapter of one of Henry Ford's vision of creating a truly durable rock solid automobile for the thrifty working class. It seems that Henry's vision won't survive into the next generation.

[armadamaster]

Glad you bring up the Mustang.

 

What do you think would have happened if Ford dropped the 87 Update and instead ran with the Probe trying to convince Mustang owners and the traditional Stang buyer that this is just as good and let the Stang languish and be neglected in the hopes that the traditional Mustang buyer would eventually move on and buy Probes ?

 

Think you would have got a similar back lash form t he faithful? You bet your ass you would have.

 

That is exactly what ford did with the CV GM . What you have failed to understand is the CV & GM have a loyal following as rabid as the Stang not to the same volume but just as rabid. The CV GM have had the MOST loyal buyers of ANY car in NA second place for a car...... the Stang.

 

This is just not about the Panther Chassis the GM CV or TC it is what these cars are capable of and what they represent, and that is not that dissimilar from why people love the Mustang. We are all individuals every one has different tastes For some car guys what does it for them is P/U trucks others the Stang some it is the riced Honda Civic and for a select few it is the traditional full size RWD NA sedan.

 

Panther guys on the board for the most part do not go and rip on the Stang or it's out dated SRA or Knock the archaic SFA and the 45 year old Twin I beam on the Super Duty's. But it seems to be ok to rip on the CV GM on this board. Yes they are archaic out dated and a throw back. As is the Mustang in some regards But that is also some of their appeal. ALL OF US want a new full size RWD sedan. All we ask is that is it as good as the Panther was and has been. And that is a pretty damn big order to fill considering what the Panther has achieved in 30 years of continuous production. So excuse us if we are skeptical.

 

The Panther chassis has been an incredible feat of engineering just as the original Fox chassis was.

The Panther chassis is tough as nails and damn near unbreakable this is one of the attributes that the following love. And there is great concern with in the loyal that this will be lost. Just as there was great concern with in the Stang community over the DC2. Difference is they were not being ingnored or pushed in to a wannabe poser.

 

So excuse us if we voice our displeasure at Ford for their stupidity. And being pushed in to a wanna be.

 

Maybe YOU and the rest should give the same respect to the CV GM crowd that you do the loyal owners followers lovers , of other Ford Vehicles.

 

 

Matthew

 

Well said Matthew! :cheerleader:

 

+1 for Cocheese and Bored of Pisteon as well.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Armada Master

[nelsonlu]

In all honesty, because I really don't know, what financial advantages did Ford get by limiting the CV/GM to fleet only vehicles?

 

The Grand Marquis was not, and still is not, limited to fleet only.

 

As I understand it, at the time that the Crown Victoria went fleet only, its retail sales were dropping heavily whereas the Grand Marquis's was holding steady -- as the retail buyers in the segment were usually opting for the more-upscale Grand Marquis rather than the Crown Victoria. I do think I can understand going fleet-only with the Crown Victoria in light of that.

[stpatrick90]

I have tried to read through all of these comments but I am sure I have missed something in the process, so if what I am about to say has been said already, I apologize.

Here it goes, from what I am getting from this thread is that a lot of you are proposing that FMC should have invested money to update the Panther platform. It would seem as if though some of you would like to see the Panther platform never go away. No platform can last forever, plan and simple. No matter how much money would have been invested in the Panther, it would still have been an old platform, there would be no getting past that. For some reason some of you on this thread speak as if though the Panther platform is the best thing since sliced bread and that no other car can ever outdo them.....the reality is there are many cars that are better than those dinosaurs, not to say that at one point in time the Panther wasn't a good car. At some point in time people just need to know when is when, and this is the case with the Panther platform. FMC has seen this new light and have taken the actions to effectively get rid of the platform. There is no changing this, everything is already in motion, so you better get on the bandwagon and stop holding a pity party for yourselves, the Panther is dead. It must be said that I commend Nick for making a good case and not allowing himself get bullied by the Pantherphiles.

[GMarc]

I have tried to read through all of these comments but I am sure I have missed something in the process, so if what I am about to say has been said already, I apologize.

Here it goes, from what I am getting from this thread is that a lot of you are proposing that FMC should have invested money to update the Panther platform. It would seem as if though some of you would like to see the Panther platform never go away. No platform can last forever, plan and simple. No matter how much money would have been invested in the Panther, it would still have been an old platform, there would be no getting past that. For some reason some of you on this thread speak as if though the Panther platform is the best thing since sliced bread and that no other car can ever outdo them.....the reality is there are many cars that are better than those dinosaurs, not to say that at one point in time the Panther wasn't a good car. At some point in time people just need to know when is when, and this is the case with the Panther platform. FMC has seen this new light and have taken the actions to effectively get rid of the platform. There is no changing this, everything is already in motion, so you better get on the bandwagon and stop holding a pity party for yourselves, the Panther is dead. It must be said that I commend Nick for making a good case and not allowing himself get bullied by the Pantherphiles.

You just don't get it, so why bother.

Ford doesn't have a car besides the Panther I am interested in. If I want a small, fuel efficient car

I'll buy a VW Diesel. Once Ford drops the Grand Marquis, I'll get a Hunday Genisis.

I am not interested in what Panther bashers have to say. I love mine and I'll buy another one if Ford keeps building them.

[stpatrick90]

You just don't get it, so why bother.

Ford doesn't have a car besides the Panther I am interested in. If I want a small, fuel efficient car

I'll buy a VW Diesel. Once Ford drops the Grand Marquis, I'll get a Hunday Genisis.

I am not interested in what Panther bashers have to say. I love mine and I'll buy another one if Ford keeps building them.

 

On the contrary, I don't think you understand the economics of it all.

I am not bashing the car at all, I am just saying that there is noway a reasonable company would invest in a platform that dates back to the 70s. The similarities between the Genisis and any of the Panthers are few, mainly they are just both rwd and that would be the extent of their similarities. In all honesty, do you think that it is a smart business case for FMC to keep investing in a platform from the 70s? Is there other companies that invest in a platform that are that old? Nope there is not. Ford is moving on and I think it is time you stop living in the 20th century and come join the rest of us in the 21st century where there are no other body-on-frame sedans. All your complaining means nothing at this point, FMC has made a decision and is not looking back, no matter how loud you complain about the demise of the Panthers, it just isn't going to bring them back.

Edited April 12, 2009 by stpatrick90

[Cocheese]

On the contrary, I don't think you understand the economics of it all.

I am not bashing the car at all, I am just saying that there is noway a reasonable company would invest in a platform that dates back to the 70s. The similarities between the Genisis and any of the Panthers are few, mainly they are just both rwd and that would be the extent of their similarities. In all honesty, do you think that it is a smart business case for FMC to keep investing in a platform from the 70s? Is there other companies that invest in a platform that are that old? Nope there is not. Ford is moving on and I think it is time you stop living in the 20th century and come join the rest of us in the 21st century where there are no other body-on-frame sedans. All your complaining means nothing at this point, FMC has made a decision and is not looking back, no matter how loud you complain about the demise of the Panthers, it just isn't going to bring them back.

 

I won't speak for everyone else, but I disagree with you to an extent. Is the Panther too far gone to be saved? Yes. It would take too much money and Ford doesn't have it. It's like fixing a house that has sustained major structural damage. Sometimes it's just cheaper and easier to rip it down and start fresh, rather then use the "band aid" solution.

 

However, the opinion that most of us have is that the Panther is a fantastic platform, and one that we would love to see replaced with something similar. We don't want front wheel drive V6's (the reason I will never consider a Lincoln MKS). So we want Ford to hear that there are loyal customers out there that want RWD V8's.

 

If the Panther had received minor updates over the years/decades, then maybe just maybe it could still be viable today. It is a great platform, evidence by it's longevity. Don't fault the Panther for that, fault other platforms or other companies that couldn't produce the same kind of quality that the Panther has achieved.

 

BTW, I would never compare the Panther to the Genesis. I wouldn't insult the Panther that way, nor would I give a Hyundai that kind of respect.

[Cocheese]

The Grand Marquis was not, and still is not, limited to fleet only.

 

 

I personally don't like the look of the GM, but do like the look of the Crown Vic LX Sport (5 passenger, colour keyed grill, reflector, door handles).

 

I see the GM is available on the US website, but not on the Canadian one (nor is the CV or TC). Odd that vehicles built in Canada aren't available for sale in Canada.

 

Not sure what the current in-dealership status is on these vehicles, but it seems they are pretty much fleet only up here.

[stpatrick90]

I won't speak for everyone else, but I disagree with you to an extent. Is the Panther too far gone to be saved? Yes. It would take too much money and Ford doesn't have it. It's like fixing a house that has sustained major structural damage. Sometimes it's just cheaper and easier to rip it down and start fresh, rather then use the "band aid" solution.

 

However, the opinion that most of us have is that the Panther is a fantastic platform, and one that we would love to see replaced with something similar. We don't want front wheel drive V6's (the reason I will never consider a Lincoln MKS). So we want Ford to hear that there are loyal customers out there that want RWD V8's.

 

If the Panther had received minor updates over the years/decades, then maybe just maybe it could still be viable today. It is a great platform, evidence by it's longevity. Don't fault the Panther for that, fault other platforms or other companies that couldn't produce the same kind of quality that the Panther has achieved.

 

BTW, I would never compare the Panther to the Genesis. I wouldn't insult the Panther that way, nor would I give a Hyundai that kind of respect.

 

I am not saying that FMC shouldn't build a new rwd platform. In all honesty I hope FMC does develop a new rwd platform in the future, but right now I don't necessarily feel that is what they should be focusing on right now though, because they still have enough other things to get sorted out. But once everything starts to turnaround in the economy I hope they do decide to build a new rwd platform, but just keep in mind that if they ever do build a new rwd platform that it isn't going to be like the Panther at all, it is going to be unibody. And to think that by giving the Panther mild updates over the years to be enough, that is just not viable. Lets put it this way, you have a 65 year old man, and you have his knees replaced and his hips resurfaced, while yes this man is better, he still doesn't compete with the younger people.

[Cocheese]

Couple things

 

I am not saying that FMC shouldn't build a new rwd platform. In all honesty I hope FMC does develop a new rwd platform in the future, but right now I don't necessarily feel that is what they should be focusing on right now though, because they still have enough other things to get sorted out.

 

You are right. Those things they need to sort out, the utter failure of the D3's. Had the D3's been done right, then maybe the new RWD platform would be moving ahead right now.

 

But once everything starts to turnaround in the economy I hope they do decide to build a new rwd platform, but just keep in mind that if they ever do build a new rwd platform that it isn't going to be like the Panther at all, it is going to be unibody.

 

I could actually see it staying full frame so that the platform could included trucks and large SUV's

 

And to think that by giving the Panther mild updates over the years to be enough, that is just not viable. Lets put it this way, you have a 65 year old man, and you have his knees replaced and his hips resurfaced, while yes this man is better, he still doesn't compete with the younger people.

 

I have another way of looking at it. Take two old Victorian homes.

 

One has been turned into a boarding house and throughout the years of changing owners and occupants has lost all of her charm. Bringing her back would be a massive, expensive project.

 

The other one stayed with the same family from generation to generation, constantly being well maintained and receiving minor upgrades over the years (new wiring, new heating, A/C, etc). This one would be a gem and something everyone could be proud of.

 

The Crown Victoria and Grand Marquis is a low rent boarding house to the Ford Motor Company. Constantly made them money hand over fist, never caused them much concern, and was virtually ignored for years because to was so damn dependable.

[MIAMI-DADE]

Couple things

 

 

 

You are right. Those things they need to sort out, the utter failure of the D3's. Had the D3's been done right, then maybe the new RWD platform would be moving ahead right now.

 

 

 

I could actually see it staying full frame so that the platform could included trucks and large SUV's

 

 

 

I have another way of looking at it. Take two old Victorian homes.

 

One has been turned into a boarding house and throughout the years of changing owners and occupants has lost all of her charm. Bringing her back would be a massive, expensive project.

 

The other one stayed with the same family from generation to generation, constantly being well maintained and receiving minor upgrades over the years (new wiring, new heating, A/C, etc). This one would be a gem and something everyone could be proud of.

 

The Crown Victoria and Grand Marquis is a low rent boarding house to the Ford Motor Company. Constantly made them money hand over fist, never caused them much concern, and was virtually ignored for years because to was so damn dependable.

 

I like the Cocheese way of looking at it much better.

[stpatrick90]

Couple things

 

 

 

You are right. Those things they need to sort out, the utter failure of the D3's. Had the D3's been done right, then maybe the new RWD platform would be moving ahead right now.

 

 

 

I could actually see it staying full frame so that the platform could included trucks and large SUV's

 

 

 

I have another way of looking at it. Take two old Victorian homes.

 

One has been turned into a boarding house and throughout the years of changing owners and occupants has lost all of her charm. Bringing her back would be a massive, expensive project.

 

The other one stayed with the same family from generation to generation, constantly being well maintained and receiving minor upgrades over the years (new wiring, new heating, A/C, etc). This one would be a gem and something everyone could be proud of.

 

The Crown Victoria and Grand Marquis is a low rent boarding house to the Ford Motor Company. Constantly made them money hand over fist, never caused them much concern, and was virtually ignored for years because to was so damn dependable.

First I don't see the D3 as a complete failure. The Panthers got 30 years to gain success, at least give the D3 a last chance. The new Taurus is impressive to say the least. The Flex while not for everyone, is undeniably nice, granted it was launched during the worse time possible. The new Explorer is looking to be an awesome vehicle. The MKS is a good car in its own right, especially now that it is getting Ecoboost. The new MKT is maybe not such a good looker, but I will save judgment on that one until I get to see it in person. Sure I don't expect many of you to like these cars at all, it is to be expected with your extreme love for the Panthers, but try to find it somewhere within yourselves to give them a chance because as much as you like it or not, they are here to stay and the Panthers are out.

 

There is noway a rwd car would stay BOF. There are no other cars that are BOF for a reason, so why would you insist on FMC making one? That and there would be no sharing with a truck or suv anymore, the Explorer is already going D3 and the F-150 and Expedition are already on a very similar platform so I think they have enough volume to justify themselves. A BOF rwd sedan just wouldn't be competitive in today's market.

 

I don't want to burst anyone's pipedream but I feel I am talking as close to reality as possible.

[NickF1011]

Ford is limiting the Panther sales slowly over time and also requiring a premium for special orders to select buyers. By limiting the sales a bit at a time they hope to build justification for ending production of the entire panther line due to declining sales. The plan is to stop producing the entire panther platform (CV/GM/TC) all at once, in one location sometime in 2011. The economic life span of the panther cars lasts to long for Ford to keep producing them. They want you to buy their other cars that will wear out faster require more frequent maintenance and need replacing sooner! Henry Ford would have been proud to see how durable, reliable and safe the panthers have become today. So much talk today about making cars safer yet no one at Ford recognises or ever advertises the standout safety feature of Body-On-Frame construction that makes all the panther's so durable and reliable and safe. It will be a sad day when the final decision to end the panther line is announced. It will bring to an end yet another chapter of one of Henry Ford's vision of creating a truly durable rock solid automobile for the thrifty working class. It seems that Henry's vision won't survive into the next generation.

 

Ah yes. It's all a conspiracy!

 

C-O-N-.....spiracy!!!