NickF1011 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) So essentially, an AWD car will be a FWD for 99.99% of the time you are driving it. Right there it makes it garbage. That 99% of the time, it doesn't make a hell of a difference which wheels are moving the vehicle and I would love to test anyone who thinks they'd be able to tell which wheels are moving a car when you are on the highway. but the reality is I picked a 4x4 because it sat higher, not for the 4 wheel drive action. Wouldn't a lift kit have been a hell of a lot cheaper? Edited June 17, 2009 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96towncarcartier Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The 500 is dead. So is the Thunderbird, the Escort, the Contour, the Bronco, and the Windstar. Yet, last I looked, Panthers were still being produced. Still winning awards. And still generating a boat load of cash for the company. I'm sorry but the Thunderbird is NOT DEAD....it is slated to return in 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I'm sorry but the Thunderbird is NOT DEAD....it is slated to return in 2012. Scoop please?? Where did you get this info?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 That 99% of the time, it doesn't make a hell of a difference which wheels are moving the vehicle and I would love to test anyone who thinks they'd be able to tell which wheels are moving a car when you are on the highway. Any one that can't does not really now now to properly handle a vehicle. Fwd's do handle diffrently even on the hyway unless your on a biliard table smooth surface and do not have to pass any one or accerate then you may be hard pressed to tell the difference. But other wise it is no brainer. Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Any one that can't does not really now now to properly handle a vehicle. Fwd's do handle diffrently even on the hyway unless your on a biliard table smooth surface and do not have to pass any one or accerate then you may be hard pressed to tell the difference. But other wise it is no brainer. Matthew You're kidding, right? I own both a RWD and a FWD car. On the highway the difference isn't noticable at all. Sure, they both feel different, but only because they are vastly different types of cars. Asking to describe any difference in how a Crown Vic feels when changing lanes at 70 MPH to what a Taurus will feel like doing the same maneuver is silly. I doubt anyone, including yourself, could tell. They might feel like different cars, because they are, but I doubt you or anyone could pin that difference down to being which wheels are propelling the vehicle. Torque steer at highway speed doesn't exist. Oversteer and understeer do not exist at highway speed. What other indicators of drive wheels are you left with? None. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocheese Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 That 99% of the time, it doesn't make a hell of a difference which wheels are moving the vehicle and I would love to test anyone who thinks they'd be able to tell which wheels are moving a car when you are on the highway. Dumb argument. How many times is the average person on the highway? Yeah, while on cruise control, going in a relative straight line, you couldn't tell. But anywhere else would be easy as hell. Wouldn't a lift kit have been a hell of a lot cheaper? Probably. But I don't think it would have helped the same way the 4x4 does when pulling the boat out. Not to mention, I haven't taken it up there yet, but my GF's family has some land up north, and after a few rainy days, it wouldn't be wise to get around the property without 4x4. Plus, like I said, she pushed for the 4x4 because she was worried about winter driving. And I wasn't going to argue with her. Of course, I think lift kits on 2 wheel drive trucks are as stupid as putting cherry bomb mufflers and huge spoilers on the back of a 4 door Civic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Dumb argument. How many times is the average person on the highway? Yeah, while on cruise control, going in a relative straight line, you couldn't tell. But anywhere else would be easy as hell. Easy for you, yes. Go to a mall and grab 100 random people and ask them whether their vehicle is FWD or RWD. At least 80 won't have a clue and 10 more will know but don't care. Most don't accelerate fast enough to experience torque steer and the only thing they know about the steering is how much effort it takes to turn it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefstang Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Dumb argument. How many times is the average person on the highway? Yeah, while on cruise control, going in a relative straight line, you couldn't tell. But anywhere else would be easy as hell. Probably. But I don't think it would have helped the same way the 4x4 does when pulling the boat out. Not to mention, I haven't taken it up there yet, but my GF's family has some land up north, and after a few rainy days, it wouldn't be wise to get around the property without 4x4. Plus, like I said, she pushed for the 4x4 because she was worried about winter driving. And I wasn't going to argue with her. Of course, I think lift kits on 2 wheel drive trucks are as stupid as putting cherry bomb mufflers and huge spoilers on the back of a 4 door Civic. WTF.. From the horse's mouth. You just listed all the advantages of 4wd/AWD over a RWD, and said you purchased it based on those needs. Northern climate, peace of mind in the snow, etc... Just because you like to show your wife what a tough guy you are driving RWD in the snow doesn't mean the average housewife does. It's like "P" shit out a baby "p". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Easy for you, yes. Go to a mall and grab 100 random people and ask them whether their vehicle is FWD or RWD. At least 80 won't have a clue and 10 more will know but don't care. Most don't accelerate fast enough to experience torque steer and the only thing they know about the steering is how much effort it takes to turn it. Exactly. And it's not like the Panthers are geared toward the enthusiast driver who might give a crap about such a thing anyway. If we were arguing about a more sport-oriented car like a Falcon, I'd be on board with the RWD argument. But frankly, for what the Panthers are expected to deliver, it's really not a priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) You're kidding, right? I own both a RWD and a FWD car. On the highway the difference isn't noticable at all. Sure, they both feel different, but only because they are vastly different types of cars. Asking to describe any difference in how a Crown Vic feels when changing lanes at 70 MPH to what a Taurus will feel like doing the same maneuver is silly. I doubt anyone, including yourself, could tell. They might feel like different cars, because they are, but I doubt you or anyone could pin that difference down to being which wheels are propelling the vehicle. Torque steer at highway speed doesn't exist. Oversteer and understeer do not exist at highway speed. What other indicators of drive wheels are you left with? None. Oh come on you mean to tell me you can not tell the differance when aaccelerting to pass ? If you can that says a alot right there. And even at that that the possibly the one time in a 1000 diffferent driving conditons where you may not be able to tell. it does not count the other 99.9% of the time. And the owners and target markt of the cars better belive they know the diffeance if that was not the case then the full size FWDS would have kicked them from the market place 20 odd years ago. Matthew Edited June 18, 2009 by matthewq4b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Oh come on you mean to tell me you can not tell the differance when aaccelerting to pass ? If you can that says a alot right there. If I just step on the accelerator to pass normally? No. If I downshift in an attempt to pass as quickly as possible? Sure. But...most people don't do that. Or shouldn't. And the owners and target markt of the cars better belive they know the diffeance if that was not the case then the full size FWDS would have kicked them from the market place 20 odd years ago. Umm..considering the Panthers are basically the last of the breed, isn't it safe to say fullsize FWD's HAVE kicked them (at least the geriatric body-on-frame pigs) from the market? I would much prefer to see a fullsize RWD like the Falcon than the Panther, that's all. I just don't see why it has to be a Panthers-Or-Nothing argument. They are outdated. That is a fact. What happened to cause them to become outdated is now beside the point and no longer worth debating. It is done and in the past. There is simply no saving them now. Let's all hope Ford has GRWD aspirations so we can get something worthy of replacing it. There is plenty of room in the market for a fullsize Taurus AND a fullsize Falcon. This doesn't have to be an either/or discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Cal Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 It's a shame Ford hasn't had a plan to replace these vehicles. It certainly had enough time; this platform has been in production for 30 years!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxman100 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 According to kbb.com, there will be a retail version of the Grand Marquis available for 2010, so I cautiously optimistic I'll be able to order a new one in 2011. For a model that is supposidely "order only" for 2009, all the dealerships around here stock them. As far as all wheel drive, besides the questionable need for it, it is also needlessly more complicated than rear wheel drive. One other thing a well - I had to replace a tire on my Grand Marquis due to picking up a screw in the tire - with all wheel drive you have to replace tires in pairs due to the need to keep the exact some diameter on an axle. In short, AWD is a nice marketing angle, but not really worth it, especially in a large sedan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 ... One other thing a well - I had to replace a tire on my Grand Marquis due to picking up a screw in the tire - with all wheel drive you have to replace tires in pairs due to the need to keep the exact some diameter on an axle. I call bullshit!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxman100 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I call bullshit!!! I'll admit when I'm wrong, and I'm wrong in this case. Volvo recommends you replace all four tires at the same time, and to use the exact same tires on all four wheels. I knew about the Subaru Impreza having that requirement as well. "Hang On" AWD Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsonlu Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 It will be a cold day in hell before someone convinces me FWD is better then RWD. It all depends on what you mean by "better." While it is obviously possible to build highly fuel-inefficient FWD cars, is there even such a thing as a fuel-efficient RWD car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 If I just step on the accelerator to pass normally? No. If I downshift in an attempt to pass as quickly as possible? Sure. But...most people don't do that. Or shouldn't. The only time you would not do that is on multi lane hyway and even then if some one is on your ass when your passing you liek to get out of the way. So the whole atgument that cna not tell on the Hyway is bogus. You con only not tell if ony cruise at a constant speed on a smooth hyway. Umm..considering the Panthers are basically the last of the breed, isn't it safe to say fullsize FWD's HAVE kicked them (at least the geriatric body-on-frame pigs) from the market? But your argument was not panther specific was it now ! you said "99% of the time, it doesn't make a hell of a difference which wheels are moving the vehicle and I would love to test anyone who thinks they'd be able to tell which wheels are moving a car when you are on the highway" And i called bull shit on it as that is what it is. And BTW in the full size segment total RWD still out sells FWD. And Nick you really do not have the back ground or the experiance to make a call on what is out dated and not when it comes to the mechanics of vehicles. You base your opinon on looks and trends more than the engineering principles of the items. You want out dated the front suspension design on the D3's is out dated and is long over for complete redesign it was out dated when designed and the short commings are showing up in the higher milage D3's already. What you fail to relaize there is basic contentent the panthers that is viable for sevral years yet. This is sort like the detractors of the SRA in the mustang that even now out handles it's IRS competetors. Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) I'll admit when I'm wrong, and I'm wrong in this case. Volvo recommends you replace all four tires at the same time, and to use the exact same tires on all four wheels. I knew about the Subaru Impreza having that requirement as well. "Hang On" AWD Systems Sorry taxman...I still don't "buy" it...until I see it from an automobile manufacturer...I still say BS...someone creates a website based on what...his friends nieghbors cousins brothers bad experience with an AWD system where they blamed a premature failure of the AWD on a tire selection...that reminds me of the days when people were warned about not cross-rotating radial tires and never...ever...mixing regular oil with synthetic oil....only to find that my owners manual now gives a cross-rotation pattern for the radials on my Fusion after I have completed a semi-synthetic oil change as recommended by Ford. Edited June 19, 2009 by twintornados Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) The only time you would not do that is on multi lane hyway and even then if some one is on your ass when your passing you liek to get out of the way. So the whole atgument that cna not tell on the Hyway is bogus. You con only not tell if ony cruise at a constant speed on a smooth hyway. What podunk town do you live in that doesn't have multi-lane highways? I can count the last time I've actually passed someone in a "passing zone" on a two-lane highway in the past year on one hand. And when I've done it in the Mazda, it's not like the torque steer threw me into the guardrail on the opposite side of the road. :rolleyes: But your argument was not panther specific was it now ! you said "99% of the time, it doesn't make a hell of a difference which wheels are moving the vehicle and I would love to test anyone who thinks they'd be able to tell which wheels are moving a car when you are on the highway" And i called bull shit on it as that is what it is. You can call it whatever you want. To most people (including most Panther owners), they wouldn't be able to tell, and if they could, they wouldn't care. And BTW in the full size segment total RWD still out sells FWD. Yes, when you include modern RWD vehicles, which the Panther is certainly not. I've never said the D3's should be a replacement for the Panthers. Why that keeps coming up is beyond me. Maybe because D3 is a convenient scapegoat to make the Panthers look better? I don't know. I want a viable, modern, unit body RWD sedan in Ford's lineup. So any more argument on the topic of D3 vs Panther will be ignored. And Nick you really do not have the back ground or the experiance to make a call on what is out dated and not when it comes to the mechanics of vehicles. You base your opinon on looks and trends more than the engineering principles of the items. You want out dated the front suspension design on the D3's is out dated and is long over for complete redesign it was out dated when designed and the short commings are showing up in the higher milage D3's already. I don't NEED an engineering background to know that the things are outdated. It doesn't matter what is under the skin. Look at the freaking interiors and exteriors. They are outdated. The mechanicals simply DO NOT MATTER. All of the mechanical upgrades in the world aren't going to make the Panthers appeal to the retail market ever again. What you fail to relaize there is basic contentent the panthers that is viable for sevral years yet. This is sort like the detractors of the SRA in the mustang that even now out handles it's IRS competetors. Viable to fleets, yes. Edited June 19, 2009 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Spoken like a true Panther fan who probably hasn't stepped foot behind the wheel of a vehicle that was designed later than 1990. I've stepped into vehicles designed later than 1990 and believe me. They are nothing but disposable junk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I've stepped into vehicles designed later than 1990 and believe me. They are nothing but disposable junk! :rolleyes: The vehicles I own now are put together far better than any of the old heaps I recall my parents ever owning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 :rolleyes: The vehicles I own now are put together far better than any of the old heaps I recall my parents ever owning. Well then what did you parents own Nick? Tell us! I will go on the record and say that every 1970's Chevy that I sat in back in the 1980's was a piece of shit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Well then what did you parents own Nick? Tell us! I will go on the record and say that every 1970's Chevy that I sat in back in the 1980's was a piece of shit! Of the ones I recall from childhood, they had some cruddy old fullsize Buick when I was born, then a Chevy Caprice, a fullsize Chevy van, a Jeep Cherokee, a Ford Taurus, and a Buick Regal. The one and only old car they still have is my dad's '69 Corvette. And well, that only has 46,000 miles on it so it better still be in somewhat decent shape. I can say without a doubt that both my Mustang and Mazda6 are screwed together tighter than any of those vehicles ever were. Of other cars they have told me they have owned were an old Triumph TR4 or TR5 that my dad traded in for the Vette and my mom had a '66 Mustang coupe for a few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Of the ones I recall from childhood, they had some cruddy old fullsize Buick when I was born, then a Chevy Caprice, a fullsize Chevy van, a Jeep Cherokee, a Ford Taurus, and a Buick Regal. The one and only old car they still have is my dad's '69 Corvette. And well, that only has 46,000 miles on it so it better still be in somewhat decent shape. I can say without a doubt that both my Mustang and Mazda6 are screwed together tighter than any of those vehicles ever were. Of other cars they have told me they have owned were an old Triumph TR4 or TR5 that my dad traded in for the Vette and my mom had a '66 Mustang coupe for a few years. Yeah, typical 1970's GM shit. But what I can't understand is that how the hell people can pay top dollar for this GM stuff (especially when it's in good shape or better) when good ol' solid and excellent running 1970's Ford Iron that is still out there in mass numbers can't sell. Believe me, I can't even find a buyer for any of my 1970's Ford's right now. Not just because of the ecomony but if it was a 1970's GM car. It would have been gone yesterday. I just don't understand how fickle and ignorant people can get with cars in general. I just don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Yeah, typical 1970's GM shit. But what I can't understand is that how the hell people can pay top dollar for this GM stuff (especially when it's in good shape or better) when good ol' solid and excellent running 1970's Ford Iron that is still out there in mass numbers can't sell. Believe me, I can't even find a buyer for any of my 1970's Ford's right now. Not just because of the ecomony but if it was a 1970's GM car. It would have been gone yesterday. I just don't understand how fickle and ignorant people can get with cars in general. I just don't. Seems you have to go back a bit further before you start finding a large number of people who appreciate the fullsize Fords. Don't get me wrong through all of this. I appreciate the Panthers. I appreciate what they have done and what they continue to do now. But their days are simply numbered, that's all. I'm just being a realist. I'm ready see the next great fullsize RWD Ford take its place. All of you as fullsize Ford fans DESERVE that. You deserve a fully modern RWD sedan that can again make you proud to get behind the wheel of your Ford every day. Believe me, if a car like the Falcon hit the market here, I'd be one of the first in line!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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