RichardJensen Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) It would be nice to see a USA Ford product that could be world class. What was 'world class' about the Model T? You have this narrow and bizarre concept of what constitutes 'world class', and you whine because no Ford product meets that weird little 'Autobahn is the pinnacle of the driving universe and God himself laid out the Nurburgring' standard that you've set. Sorry bub, the Autobahn is no more a universal standard for establishing car superiority than I-90, the PCH, or Park Avenue. If you think it is, you can look at how far that attitude's gotten VW in the US. Edited December 21, 2009 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Keeping up would be a correct way to view the difference between a Taurus and a BMW 5, 6 or 7 Series. I'm not criticizing Ford for not producing a product equal to the worlds best cars, but I do understand that Ford supporters shouldn't pretend that they do. Ford builds excellent cars and trucks for the mass market. And a few products for the lower end of the automotive enthusiasts market. But there is nothing that Ford makes that is a "world class leader". Maybe one day Lincoln will get such a product. BTW, the three vehicles in my driveway are Ford products. did , or has, BMW, Mercedes or Audi made anything that even remotely compares to the Ford GT?.....didnt think so....they HAVE the capability, and that car showed what they ARE capable of....problem is, it comes at a price...there is NO doubt in my mind they could $ for dollar produce a car as good as, if not superior to any of the brands mentioned....question is do they want to venture into the market of "status" and poseurs?....pretty risky if you ask me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one2gamble Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 What was 'world class' about the Model T? You have this narrow and bizarre concept of what constitutes 'world class', and you whine because no Ford product meets that weird little 'Autobahn is the pinnacle of the driving universe and God himself laid out the Nurburgring' standard that you've set. Sorry bub, the Autobahn is no more a universal standard for establishing car superiority than I-90, the PCH, or Park Avenue. If you think it is, you can look at how far that attitude's gotten VW in the US. PCH times should be the new standard all vehicles are held. It provides a perfect mix of high speed straights as well as mind bending turns. Also, if you fuck up you die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 What was 'world class' about the Model T? You have this narrow and bizarre concept of what constitutes 'world class', and you whine because no Ford product meets that weird little 'Autobahn is the pinnacle of the driving universe and God himself laid out the Nurburgring' standard that you've set. Sorry bub, the Autobahn is no more a universal standard for establishing car superiority than I-90, the PCH, or Park Avenue. If you think it is, you can look at how far that attitude's gotten VW in the US. Speaking of a narrowed view. As a car enthusiast, do you only think in terms of the USA? The Interstate idea was brought over here when President Eisenhower wanted the USA to have a highway system similar (for DoD and civilian use), to what he saw in Germany. As such, I do consider the Autobahn the pinnacle highway system in the world. Additionally, the Autobahn roads are made to a higher standard than here in the USA. Richard, I call your bluff... Post a product that Ford makes here in the USA that enthusiast experts consider to be a world class leader in that segment. The GT and LS was close. I do concede that Ford makes excellent products. Unfortunately, they are not made here in the USA. Ford is having to import the their best products from Europe or designs from Mazda and Volvo to America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Speaking of a narrowed view. As a car enthusiast, do you only think in terms of the USA? The Interstate idea was brought over here when President Eisenhower wanted the USA to have a highway system similar (for DoD and civilian use), to what he saw in Germany. As such, I do consider the Autobahn the pinnacle highway system in the world. Additionally, the Autobahn roads are made to a higher standard than here in the USA. Richard, I call your bluff... Post a product that Ford makes here in the USA that enthusiast experts consider to be a world class leader in that segment. The GT and LS was close. I do concede that Ford makes excellent products. Unfortunately, they are not made here in the USA. Ford is having to import the their best products from Europe or designs from Mazda and Volvo to America. ssssssssh, keep it quiet, but their is a certain "little" car right around the corner, that could well be considered world class...oh, and I'll throw out the GT500 a close....as for BMW's, owned three, all three had issues, only thing I would rate as exceptional were handling balance, structural integrity and service bills..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) Speaking of a narrowed view. As a car enthusiast, do you only think in terms of the USA? Irrelevant. Irrelevant. Irrelevant. I am not a car enthusiast. I drive a Mercury Sable, and do not drive it particularly hard. The car business is first and foremost a business. The Interstate idea was brought over here when President Eisenhower wanted the USA to have a highway system similar (for DoD and civilian use), to what he saw in Germany. As such, I do consider the Autobahn the pinnacle highway system in the world. Additionally, the Autobahn roads are made to a higher standard than here in the USA. Ah, so the progenitor is superior to all of its offspring due to its prior status, eh? Sorry, but that's bogus. One might as well claim that the Athenian democracy--with the franchise excluded from slaves and women--was superior to the US iteration, due to its prior status. "Athenian democracy was better than US democracy because US democracy was based on Athenian democracy" Dumb argument there, and a dumb argument everywhere else it's raised. And regarding the alleged superiority of the Autobahn, well, mon ami, what is a road for? The interstate system, is six times longer than the autobahn and provides more services in a more diverse environment to a far less densely populated country. Where's the autobahn equivalent of the 405? Where's the autobahn equivalent of the Eisenhower tunnel? Where's the autobahn equivalent of Wyoming & Nebraska's I-80? In doing what roads must do, the autobahn pales in comparison to the interstate system. But, of course, all of that is irrelevant when your primary focus is your own navel. Richard, I call your bluff... Post a product that Ford makes here in the USA that enthusiast experts consider to be a world class leader in that segment. I'm not going to play your game. You have set yourself up as arbiter of what is 'world class', and I don't respect your standards any more than I find them relevant to the success of Ford as a business. My point isn't that you're wrong. My point is that your argument is stupid. Edited December 21, 2009 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) Here's the thing, mettech. You are obsessed with yourself in this debate. This whole discussion revolves around what you consider to be 'world class'. The debate does not revolve around the difficulties of estimating what is the best product for the broadest range of people (be it the interstate or the Ford Taurus), the debate, as you have constructed it, is quite selfish in concept. The debate you have structured is "why can't Ford make a car that I consider world class?" Frankly the question is entirely irrelevant for a responsible business. Maybe if it was Mettech Car Co, makers of the car for self-absorbed meteorologists your opinions would be valid and worth considering. But as it stands, they are entirely irrelevant to the Ford Motor Company. --- To put the coda to this debate: No one at Ford should care what you think about cars. Edited December 21, 2009 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 in the immortal words of james Coburn, RIP,..."Thats just plain MEAN man....." lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Sssssssh.. were does that car come from and where will it be made? Again.... Name a car made in the USA that is world class. Focus Taurus/MKS (Volvo) Edge/MKX (Volvo) Mustang All I'm saying is I wish that the Ford, the car company that I support would make a USA that is world class. If small European car companies can, why not Ford? I would like to see a Ford USA product that would be equal to a: A4 A6 3, 5, 6, 7 Series SLR CLS I could go on. Take a look at the BMW, Audi, M-B Europe websites. Look at how many cars and engines they have to offer. Why is it that the Germans can design and build so many cars that Americans want, but USA has vertebrally nothing that the world wants. How many USA made cars are exported to Germany? And how many cars are imported to the USA from Germany? You know, Hyundai thinks they are worth the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) Mettech, you're being an idiot. What you choose to call world-class, and why you choose to put so much stress on that point are mysteries that simply do not interest me. Nor should they interest Ford. Edited December 21, 2009 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Not to mention that the Edge/MKX is made in CANADA on a heavily modified MAZDA platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 in the immortal words of james Coburn, RIP,..."Thats just plain MEAN man....." lol Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me this whole debate is about something besides the contents of Mettech's brain pan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Sssssssh.. were does that car come from and where will it be made? Again.... Name a car made in the USA that is world class. Focus Taurus/MKS (Volvo) Edge/MKX (Volvo) Mustang All I'm saying is I wish that the Ford, the car company that I support would make a USA that is world class. If small European car companies can, why not Ford? I would like to see a Ford USA product that would be equal to a: A4 A6 3, 5, 6, 7 Series SLR CLS I could go on. Take a look at the BMW, Audi, M-B Europe websites. Look at how many cars and engines they have to offer. Why is it that the Germans can design and build so many cars that Americans want, but USA has vertebrally nothing that the world wants. How many USA made cars are exported to Germany? And how many cars are imported to the USA from Germany? You know, Hyundai thinks they are worth the effort. so, you are saying if Ford utilizes knowledge from a partner they OWN, or hold a % in, then they are not Fords?....and if they are built other than in the States they shouldnt be considered American? ( enter stupid Mexico argument AGAIN )....hmmm, then please name a world class BMW ,made in the USA....and really mettech, what constitutes "World Class?"...sounds like an individuals opinion no? in which case there are several areas in which I would rate some of fords engineering to be head and shoulders over the german competition...FACT, being german does NOT mean World Class, no vehicle is "perfect"...dont get me started on the BMW warts....each had its own individual flavor of POS...I will NOT own, buy, or recommend another.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me this whole debate is about something besides the contents of Mettech's brain pan. no, I appreciated the blunt candor, why beat around the bush...just this vision of James Coburn jumped into my mind with a hole in his Alligator ( or was it crocodile ) suitcase..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one2gamble Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 met just thinks world class = expensive There is no such thing as "world class". There are simply good cars at various price points the present a value proposition to potential customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97svtgoin05gt Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Sssssssh.. were does that car come from and where will it be made? Again.... Name a car made in the USA that is world class. Focus Taurus/MKS (Volvo) Edge/MKX (Volvo) Mustang All I'm saying is I wish that the Ford, the car company that I support would make a USA that is world class. If small European car companies can, why not Ford? I would like to see a Ford USA product that would be equal to a: A4 A6 3, 5, 6, 7 Series SLR CLS I could go on. Take a look at the BMW, Audi, M-B Europe websites. Look at how many cars and engines they have to offer. Why is it that the Germans can design and build so many cars that Americans want, but USA has vertebrally nothing that the world wants. How many USA made cars are exported to Germany? And how many cars are imported to the USA from Germany? You know, Hyundai thinks they are worth the effort. As with the others, I don't understand your comparison/expectations - you're comparing luxury brands to Ford. Not only are you doing that, you're comparing vehicles designed to American tastes (our Ford lineup) to vehicles designed for Europe. You're telling me that the general public would not want a luxury BMW/Mercedes, Audi over a "Ford?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 The experts in the automobile world are the judges. Magazines Newspapers Consumer Reports Professiional drivers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 The people that matter in the automobile world are the customers. Fixed it for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 The experts in the automobile world are the judges. Magazines Newspapers Consumer Reports Professiional drivers As filtered and sorted by you through your prejudices. You need to apply the advice in your signature, buddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 The experts in the automobile world are the judges. Magazines Newspapers Consumer Reports Professiional drivers and THAt explains the performance bias and scribed lust over cars above and beyond most of their paygrades??????...and FYI.....a MAJORITY of the manufacturers cars lineups youv'e mentioned SUCK when compared to the echelon, so are they world class?.....hmmm, they are more ( mostly ) expensive too....seems there is a common trait....I guess some just have to have that German insignia on their $23000 staus symbol....oh wait....hmmm, what can I get thats considered world class ( as scribed by those stuck on the importance of stats and figures ) for $23k thats dependable, cheap to service, fun to drive and gets 35-40 mpgs?......and please, the ONLY reference you have mentioned that has TRUE credence is the Professional Drivers...and guess where their ideal is squewed..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 As filtered and sorted by you through your prejudices. You need to apply the advice in your signature, buddy. OK Richard. You pick the products and judge. Or is everyone in the world filtered by my prejudices. You can pick the expert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 and THAt explains the performance bias and scribed lust over cars above and beyond most of their paygrades??????...and FYI.....a MAJORITY of the manufacturers cars lineups youv'e mentioned SUCK when compared to the echelon, so are they world class?.....hmmm, they are more ( mostly ) expensive too....seems there is a common trait....I guess some just have to have that German insignia on their $23000 staus symbol....oh wait....hmmm, what can I get thats considered world class ( as scribed by those stuck on the importance of stats and figures ) for $23k thats dependable, cheap to service, fun to drive and gets 35-40 mpgs?......and please, the ONLY reference you have mentioned that has TRUE credence is the Professional Drivers...and guess where their ideal is squewed..... Are you saying that all of the experts are skewed to the point that all of their opinions and data are untrustworthy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Are you saying that all of the experts are skewed to the point that all of their opinions and data are untrustworthy? heres your hall passes...Magazines....ANYTHING BMW, Consumer Reports...anything Honda ( are they world class ) and previously Toyota, Newspapers....anything JAPANESE ( world class? ) Professional Drivers...anything performance oriented/ exotic, expensive and unlivable day to day but great on the track.....great reflection of Reality dont you think....RIDDLED with personal bias and opinions....world class in THEIR eyes, which leads to this question....what actually IS world class? an opinion of a self proclaimed expert?....when you made your list you sure threw affordability and dependability out the door.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 You pick the products and judge Okay. The judge is the American car buyer, and the winners are......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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