Toyota: Pedal or electronic throttle to blame?

[Tico]

All the focus is on the mechanicals of the gas pedal right now. But a few stories mention some still think the problem lies in the electronic throttle system and not the pedal. Also many lawsuites filed site the electronic and not mechnical systems as faulty. Why isn't this getting more attention in the press? If this is true and cars continue to have this issue AFTER haveing the pedal replaced Toyota will be finished.

[KCM1]

I have thought the same thing. Saw the guy that made it to the dealer with the problem on Nightline and he said the car kept accelerating on its own and his foot was off the footfeed. He was sure the footfeed was not stuck. If the car was accelerating, wouldn't this indicate the problem could be in the cruise control system? Don't know if the guy had the cruise on, but if not, maybe it is activating on its own somehow. Hitting the brakes should disengage it, but maybe a glitch or short circuit is ignoring that signal.

[Tico]

I have thought the same thing. Saw the guy that made it to the dealer with the problem on Nightline and he said the car kept accelerating on its own and his foot was off the footfeed. He was sure the footfeed was not stuck. If the car was accelerating, wouldn't this indicate the problem could be in the cruise control system? Don't know if the guy had the cruise on, but if not, maybe it is activating on its own somehow. Hitting the brakes should disengage it, but maybe a glitch or short circuit is ignoring that signal.

 

Not cruise control but electronic control period. There is no physical connection between the pedal and the throttle on the engine. It is all "drive by wire". So this an electronic or even software problem! At least that is what many lawsuits and some supposed "experts" are saying.

[akirby]

Not cruise control but electronic control period. There is no physical connection between the pedal and the throttle on the engine. It is all "drive by wire". So this an electronic or even software problem! At least that is what many lawsuits and some supposed "experts" are saying.

 

The computer controls the throttle directly, so it could be a software glitch, or a bad sensor on the gas pedal or a combination.

[theoldwizard]

All the focus is on the mechanicals of the gas pedal right now. But a few stories mention some still think the problem lies in the electronic throttle system and not the pedal. Also many lawsuites filed site the electronic and not mechnical systems as faulty. Why isn't this getting more attention in the press?

Because electronic throttle control (ETC) (a.k.a.. "throttle-by-wire") is a very complex system that few (especially in the media) understand. The industry as a whole has down played this transition to ETC over the past 7-10 years because they were concerned that customers might have a negative reaction. These systems in general are safe (look how many millions of cars are currently on the road with ETC). Remember that if the "root cause" of the failure is mechanical, you could have a similar situation with mechanical linkage from the pedal to the throttle body.

 

If this is true and cars continue to have this issue AFTER having the pedal replaced Toyota will be finished.

Good point.

 

As the supplier (CTS) has stated, it is not possible for a mechanical failure to cause the car to accelerate (increase in speed). The worst it could do (assuming the driver did not mash the pedal to the floor in an attempt to unstick it) is stay stuck at the last position or slowly to return to closed throttle.

 

The Toyota system uses a contactless sensor inside the pedal assembly. In theory this is better (no wear), but it is more complex.

[theoldwizard]

Not cruise control but electronic control period. There is no physical connection between the pedal and the throttle on the engine. It is all "drive by wire". So this an electronic or even software problem! At least that is what many lawsuits and some supposed "experts" are saying.

The 3 biggest advantage of ETC are

1. Easier to meet emission regulations (quick closing throttles cause spikes)
   
2. Zero cost idle speed control
   
3. Zero cost (except for steering wheel switches) cruise control
   

[jasonj80]

The 3 biggest advantage of ETC are

1. Easier to meet emission regulations (quick closing throttles cause spikes)
   
2. Zero cost idle speed control
   
3. Zero cost (except for steering wheel switches) cruise control
   

 

Better gas mileage is also a big one --

 

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=12326

[svtenthusiast]

OP, I feel the same way. I think Toyota is just feeding the media and public a "bottle" to make everyone think they are doing the right thing by replacing these pedals. While in reality, they are scrambling and engineers are working 24/7 trying to find what the heck is really going on.

[weiweishen]

All the focus is on the mechanicals of the gas pedal right now. But a few stories mention some still think the problem lies in the electronic throttle system and not the pedal. Also many lawsuites filed site the electronic and not mechnical systems as faulty. Why isn't this getting more attention in the press? If this is true and cars continue to have this issue AFTER haveing the pedal replaced Toyota will be finished.

My guess is

1. Electronic parts are mre difficult to repair. They can only be replaced, which means much more cost comparing with the mechanical parts that can be repaired.

2. Toyota wants to blam US suppliers for the defect. I noticed that Toyota and its dealers emphasized several time in the past one week that the camry with VIN starting as JT are much better than other camry. The "JT" were assembled in Japan and used the padel supplied by Japanese company. I think all of the electronic parts were supplied by Japanese companies. Toyoda wants to use this way to convince people that it is American who cause the defect, not Japanese design.

[theoldwizard]

Better gas mileage is also a big one --

 

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=12326

Yeah, sure. That's what the PR people say. At best it might improve mileage by 0.5-1.0 mpg.

[JLaudioF150]

Yeah, sure. That's what the PR people say. At best it might improve mileage by 0.5-1.0 mpg.

 

1 mpg is actually a lot for some.

[Tico]

Yes I am sure many Toyota lovers are pointing out that the pedals were made in North America. If this were a software problem wouldn't there be a chance to fix it by flashing or reprogramming the PCM rather than replacing it? Or is there another black box used for throttle control?

 

Time will tell but if this is electrical or software rather than the pedal Toyota will be doomed. Will be interesting to watch the law suits play out although it will take years. More are being filed each day. At least some of the ones from 2009 allege problem is with electronic throttle control not the mechanics of the pedal. Also many lawsuits involve 2002 to 2006 Toyotas NOT included in the recall as of yet.

 

For now I will simply stay far away from any 2001 + Toyota's I see maneuvering in the same parking lot as me!

[theoldwizard]

Yes I am sure many Toyota lovers are pointing out that the pedals were made in North America. If this were a software problem wouldn't there be a chance to fix it by flashing or reprogramming the PCM rather than replacing it? Or is there another black box used for throttle control?

Many (Most ? All?) systems use more than one microprocessor.

 

On (gasoline powered) Ford products, there is a separate processor in the throttle body itself. It is "commanded" by the PCM.

 

Diesels have had throttle-by-wire (of course diesels actually don't have a "throttle") since they went to electronic fuel injection (PowerStroke 7.3L).

[2b2]

Wozniak cites 'scary' Prius acceleration problem - News.CNet.com

February 1, 2010 5:55 PM PST

by Brooke Crothers

"This is software. It's not a bad accelerator pedal. It's very scary, but luckily for me I can hit the brakes," he said.

 

--------------------

imho nobody but NoBody is going to believe that Wozniak doesn't know what he's talking about!

[Ford Jellymoulds]

TOYOTA CAMRY- NHSTA Mat/pedal Recall details...

LINK

TOYOTA IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2004-2010 PASSENGER VEHICLES. THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL CAN GET STUCK IN THE WIDE OPEN POSITION DUE TO ITS BEING TRAPPED BY AN UNSECURED OR INCOMPATIBLE DRIVER'S FLOOR MAT.

 

A STUCK OPEN ACCELERATOR PEDAL MAY RESULT IN VERY HIGH VEHICLE SPEEDS AND MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO STOP THE VEHICLE, WHICH COULD CAUSE A CRASH, SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

 

TOYOTA CAMRY - NHSTA Stiff Pedal that could turn a Yota owner into a dead stiff, Recall details...

TOYOTA IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2005-2010 AVALON, MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 CAMRY, MODEL YEAR 2009-2010 COROLLA, COROLLA MATRIX, RAV4, MODEL YEAR 2010 HIGHLANDER, MODEL YEAR 2008-2010 SEQUOIA, AND MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 TUNDRA VEHICLES. DUE TO THE MANNER IN WHICH THE FRICTION LEVER INTERACTS WITH THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL INSIDE THE PEDAL SENSOR ASSEMBLY, THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE LEVER MAY BECOME SMOOTH DURING VEHICLE OPERATION. IN THIS CONDITION, IF CONDENSATION OCCURS ON THE SURFACE, AS MAY OCCUR FROM HEATER OPERATION (WITHOUT A/C) WHEN THE PEDAL ASSEMBLY IS COLD, THE FRICTION WHEN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL IS OPERATED MAY INCREASE, WHICH MAY RESULT IN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL BECOMING HARDER TO DEPRESS, SLOWER TO RETURN, OR, IN THE WORST CASE, MECHANICALLY STUCK IN A PARTIALLY DEPRESSED POSITION.

 

THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL MAY BECOME HARD TO DEPRESS, SLOW TO RETURN TO IDLE, OR, IN THE WORST CASE, MECHANICALLY STUCK IN A PARTIALLY DEPRESSED POSITION, INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH.

LINK

 

Toyota turkeys l would steer well clear of them, thank God Yota don't sell the their Camry deathtraps in the UK.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Ford Jellymoulds

[V8-X]

Also many lawsuits involve 2002 to 2006 Toyotas NOT included in the recall as of yet.

This is what I question most. These reports have been going on for years (1999), and started to spike starting in certain 2001 and newer models. So I question how Toyota can simply recall or look into mostly 2007 and newer models. Maybe they are trying to phase in the recall, with the current Toyota models first, then move on to Lexus & Scion models, then move to older models. Couldn't say for sure, but it is interesting and disturbing when looking at the model years that have been reported to have this problem. The biggest one I question is the Tacoma since its remodel in 2005 I believe. Seen them reported as much if not more than other models, but they haven't made a recall list.

[97svtgoin05gt]

TOYOTA CAMRY- NHSTA Mat/pedal Recall details...

LINK

TOYOTA IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2004-2010 PASSENGER VEHICLES. THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL CAN GET STUCK IN THE WIDE OPEN POSITION DUE TO ITS BEING TRAPPED BY AN UNSECURED OR INCOMPATIBLE DRIVER'S FLOOR MAT.

 

A STUCK OPEN ACCELERATOR PEDAL MAY RESULT IN VERY HIGH VEHICLE SPEEDS AND MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO STOP THE VEHICLE, WHICH COULD CAUSE A CRASH, SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

 

TOYOTA CAMRY - NHSTA Stiff Pedal that could turn a Yota owner into a dead stiff, Recall details...

TOYOTA IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2005-2010 AVALON, MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 CAMRY, MODEL YEAR 2009-2010 COROLLA, COROLLA MATRIX, RAV4, MODEL YEAR 2010 HIGHLANDER, MODEL YEAR 2008-2010 SEQUOIA, AND MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 TUNDRA VEHICLES. DUE TO THE MANNER IN WHICH THE FRICTION LEVER INTERACTS WITH THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL INSIDE THE PEDAL SENSOR ASSEMBLY, THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE LEVER MAY BECOME SMOOTH DURING VEHICLE OPERATION. IN THIS CONDITION, IF CONDENSATION OCCURS ON THE SURFACE, AS MAY OCCUR FROM HEATER OPERATION (WITHOUT A/C) WHEN THE PEDAL ASSEMBLY IS COLD, THE FRICTION WHEN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL IS OPERATED MAY INCREASE, WHICH MAY RESULT IN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL BECOMING HARDER TO DEPRESS, SLOWER TO RETURN, OR, IN THE WORST CASE, MECHANICALLY STUCK IN A PARTIALLY DEPRESSED POSITION.

 

THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL MAY BECOME HARD TO DEPRESS, SLOW TO RETURN TO IDLE, OR, IN THE WORST CASE, MECHANICALLY STUCK IN A PARTIALLY DEPRESSED POSITION, INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH.

LINK

 

Toyota turkeys l would steer well clear of them, thank God Yota don't sell the their Camry deathtraps in the UK.

 

I just feel like the conditions required to cause this particular variety of the failure have to be too percise to be happening this frequently. I just believe that we'll see this problem persist even after this smoke screen pedal thing is over.

[Tico]

ABCNEWS: Two congressmen issued a strong statement Tuesday afternoon suggesting that recent statements by Toyota's top U.S. executive to the public about the causes of random acceleration were misleading, and that in private Toyota officials had said that sticky gas pedals were not the problem.

 

Full story here:

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/waxman-toyota-told-us-gas-pedals-problem/story?id=9730328

[Monkey]

Class action lawsuit started in Canada doesn't think it is the pedal either

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20100201/toyota_lawsuits_100201?s_name=&no_ads=

quote from article

"Our concern now is that the fix is not going to the heart of the problem which we allege is a faulty computer system," he told CTV News Channel Monday afternoon.

 

"This problem has been going on for years in the United States primarily, starting in 2002 with a new computer system that was designed to regulate acceleration and braking."