My comparison: 2010 small SUVs

[DC Car Examiner]

Unless you measure it against other compact cars.

 

One of these days I'll crunch VW's losses over their annual US sales, as compared to Ford's, to give you some idea how much money they've lost in the US.

 

Or better yet, you could do it and write an article about it.

 

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Whatever may be said about the Jetta, I doubt that VW is satisfied with its sales figures: look no further than their ambitious goal of hitting 400k per year in a year and a half if you want evidence.

 

VW knows it's in a niche right now because of its high prices. The Jetta isn't the best-selling compact car because it's so expensive -- but it was in the top five last year, above Nissan or GM. It's basically what keeps VW afloat in the U.S. right now.

 

And wait for the new VW compact and midsize cars to hit the market before you're so confident they can't increase sales. (Not saying they will, but I think they'll come closer than you think.)

[RichardJensen]

And wait for the new VW compact and midsize cars to hit the market before you're so confident they can't increase sales.

 

Oh yeah?

 

I DID crunch those numbers.

 

Chew on this:

 

Over a six year period (2004-2009) Ford lost $21.1 billion in North America on volume of 17.2 million units, for a net loss of $1,230 per unit over that time period.

 

Over a four year period (2004-2007) VW lost $3.86 billion in North America on volume of 2.16 million units, for a net loss of $1,780 per unit over that time period.

 

VW no longer reports income/loss on a geographic basis--but NA revenues declined in both 2008 and 2009.

 

IN order for VW to reduce its losses to Ford's on a per unit basis, it would have needed to break even for both 2008 & 2009.

 

I can guarantee you that they did not. Not in 2008 & 2009 in North America. If they had significantly improved performance in '08/'09, they would almost certainly have said SOMETHING about it in their annual reports for those years. Instead, the annual reports are mum on the subject of NA performance.

 

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So there you have it, VW lost more money per unit in North America over the last six years than Ford. Their North American operations were WORSE than Ford's over that time period.

 

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How that's relevant to VW's predictions of future growth:

 

Ford reacted to shrinking volumes by taking drastic capacity actions, and reducing structural costs.

 

VW has done none of that. They aim for 400k sales in the US because they have 400k units of capacity for the US. In fact, they are STUPIDLY adding capacity in the US.

 

VW's attitude would be akin to Ford saying in 2007, "We're going to sell 4M units in 2010, therefore we're not going to close ANY factories. In fact we're building a NEW factory."

Edited May 13, 2010 by RichardJensen

[silvrsvt]

Just kind of find it funny that your picking on the Escape for its door pull handles....I never noticed them nor did they "feel" cheap.

[DC Car Examiner]

Oh yeah?

 

I DID crunch those numbers.

 

Chew on this:

 

Over a six year period (2004-2009) Ford lost $21.1 billion in North America on volume of 17.2 million units, for a net loss of $1,230 per unit over that time period.

 

Over a four year period (2004-2007) VW lost $3.86 billion in North America on volume of 2.16 million units, for a net loss of $1,780 per unit over that time period.

 

VW no longer reports income/loss on a geographic basis--but NA revenues declined in both 2008 and 2009.

 

IN order for VW to reduce its losses to Ford's on a per unit basis, it would have needed to break even for both 2008 & 2009.

 

I can guarantee you that they did not. Not in 2008 & 2009 in North America. If they had significantly improved performance in '08/'09, they would almost certainly have said SOMETHING about it in their annual reports for those years. Instead, the annual reports are mum on the subject of NA performance.

 

----

 

So there you have it, VW lost more money per unit in North America over the last six years than Ford. Their North American operations were WORSE than Ford's over that time period.

 

----

 

How that's relevant to VW's predictions of future growth:

 

Ford reacted to shrinking volumes by taking drastic capacity actions, and reducing structural costs.

 

VW has done none of that. They aim for 400k sales in the US because they have 400k units of capacity for the US. In fact, they are STUPIDLY adding capacity in the US.

 

VW's attitude would be akin to Ford saying in 2007, "We're going to sell 4M units in 2010, therefore we're not going to close ANY factories. In fact we're building a NEW factory."

 

You're looking at the situation from a perspective that ignores upcoming product. There will soon be a new Jetta and a new Passat, and you're assuming too early that won't make a difference.

[Chester]

I love the Jetta Sportwagon TDI. Name another vehicle in it's class that get's anywhere near it's MPG that actually feels like you are driving a car.

 

In fact, it's the only car I would consider besides a Ford right now. I'm hoping the new focus comes close, but we will see. The interior on the Jetta wagon is very nice, way nicer than other compact wagon's I've seen. Plus it has the interior volume of the above listed SUV's, only it averages in the high 30's in mpg's, and handles like a nice sedan.

[DC Car Examiner]

I love the Jetta Sportwagon TDI. Name another vehicle in it's class that get's anywhere near it's MPG that actually feels like you are driving a car.

 

In fact, it's the only car I would consider besides a Ford right now. I'm hoping the new focus comes close, but we will see. The interior on the Jetta wagon is very nice, way nicer than other compact wagon's I've seen. Plus it has the interior volume of the above listed SUV's, only it averages in the high 30's in mpg's, and handles like a nice sedan.

 

Yeah, it's hard to imagine someone walking past the Jetta wagon to pay more money for a front-drive Tiguan. At least with AWD is has the all-weather advantage, but at least in the D.C. area it's the FWD model that's overwhelmingly stocked.

[DC Car Examiner]

Sixth place: 2010 Kia Sportage

 

 

There's room in every market class for an unremarkable but splendidly inexpensive vehicle, offering something that's roughly competitive with the pricier class leaders at a much lower price.

 

The 2010 Kia Sportage, in its final months before a fully redesigned 2011 model – which will be mechanically identical to the new Hyundai Tucson, just as this Sportage is related to the older version of the Hyundai – comes close to that in many ways...

 

Continued at link: http://www.examiner.com/x-1017-Autos-Examiner~y2010m5d14-Comparison-review-2010-compact-SUVs-sixth-place

[FordBuyer]

Sixth place: 2010 Kia Sportage

 

 

 

 

Continued at link: http://www.examiner.com/x-1017-Autos-Examiner~y2010m5d14-Comparison-review-2010-compact-SUVs-sixth-place

 

Rating a terrible Kia Sportage above the Escape is quite a stretch. I can't even get by the terriblly cheap looking exterior of the Sportage let alone bring myself to climb into one. The Escape is much better looking just at a glance and has much better visibility out of it once inside. Add in the convenience of a Ford Dealer probably being much closer by and the better residual values Ford vehicles have now and no way is that piece of junk better than an Escape. You completely lost me on this ranking.

[DC Car Examiner]

Rating a terrible Kia Sportage above the Escape is quite a stretch. I can't even get by the terriblly cheap looking exterior of the Sportage let alone bring myself to climb into one. The Escape is much better looking just at a glance and has much better visibility out of it once inside. Add in the convenience of a Ford Dealer probably being much closer by and the better residual values Ford vehicles have now and no way is that piece of junk better than an Escape. You completely lost me on this ranking.

 

So, you know all about a car you've never even been inside?

 

The Sportage and Escape are quite similar in many ways: the ride quality and the handling are pretty close, an interior that's well assembled but cheap-feeling is shared between the two, the seats feel similar. The differences are that the Escape did better in a couple of crash tests (though it's no champ in that category either) and gets better gas mileage and the Sportage costs $3,500 less...and that's a victory to the Kia in my book.

 

If you live far from a Kia dealer, of course, that's a different story. Most people don't.

[FordBuyer]

So, you know all about a car you've never even been inside?

 

The Sportage and Escape are quite similar in many ways: the ride quality and the handling are pretty close, an interior that's well assembled but cheap-feeling is shared between the two, the seats feel similar. The differences are that the Escape did better in a couple of crash tests (though it's no champ in that category either) and gets better gas mileage and the Sportage costs $3,500 less...and that's a victory to the Kia in my book.

 

If you live far from a Kia dealer, of course, that's a different story. Most people don't.

 

A two year old Escape with moderate miles is worth $20,000 around here, more than what a Sportage is worth new. The whole outside design of the Sportage is class uncompetitive. And you can tell by looking at the pinched rear windows on both sides visiblity to rear is not good. I'm not saying the Escape is a world beater, but it's easily mid pack in your test. 20,000/month are buying the Escape for some reason. The Sportage doesn't even belong on your list, it's that bad. Kia may be making some better vehicles as of late, but that dated looking vehicle is not one of them.

[FordBuyer]

I believe you also rated a V6 Sportage aginst an I4 Escape which is not a fair comparison. The V6 Escape has 70 more hp and is flex fuel. The Sportage also uses a dated 4 spd. auto which you didn't mention. Both engines of the Escape offer a modern 6 spd. auto. One weakness Ford needs to address though is better fuel mileage out of its AWD version. With 2wd, Ford is fine to way above average, but with AWD they are below average and probably lose sales because of it.

[DC Car Examiner]

I believe you also rated a V6 Sportage aginst an I4 Escape which is not a fair comparison. The V6 Escape has 70 more hp and is flex fuel. The Sportage also uses a dated 4 spd. auto which you didn't mention. Both engines of the Escape offer a modern 6 spd. auto. One weakness Ford needs to address though is better fuel mileage out of its AWD version. With 2wd, Ford is fine to way above average, but with AWD they are below average and probably lose sales because of it.

 

The Sportage V6 against the Escape I4 is a big disadvantage to the Kia, not the other way around. The Kia 6 is negligibly quicker or quieter than the Ford 4 and gets much worse mileage. It's just the only version of the car available with 4WD and an automatic.

[DC Car Examiner]

A two year old Escape with moderate miles is worth $20,000 around here, more than what a Sportage is worth new. The whole outside design of the Sportage is class uncompetitive. And you can tell by looking at the pinched rear windows on both sides visiblity to rear is not good. I'm not saying the Escape is a world beater, but it's easily mid pack in your test. 20,000/month are buying the Escape for some reason. The Sportage doesn't even belong on your list, it's that bad. Kia may be making some better vehicles as of late, but that dated looking vehicle is not one of them.

 

So your big complaints are visibility (valid) and styling (subjective). That just doesn't make a generally pleasant vehicle last place to me.

 

I outlined in my Escape review why people buy them: because it's a recognizable name, not ridiculously expensive, and good enough to stand up well for someone who does little or no cross-shopping. The same things that keep the Camry and Corolla selling well. Sales say next to nothing about whether one car is better than another.

[FordBuyer]

So your big complaints are visibility (valid) and styling (subjective). That just doesn't make a generally pleasant vehicle last place to me.

 

I outlined in my Escape review why people buy them: because it's a recognizable name, not ridiculously expensive, and good enough to stand up well for someone who does little or no cross-shopping. The same things that keep the Camry and Corolla selling well. Sales say next to nothing about whether one car is better than another.

 

Oh really? Sales don't mean anything? Buyers plopping down or financing $25,000 for these vehicles don't count? I would suspect most cross shop to some extent and are at least aware of what is out there. The Escape is a CUV based upon a car chassis that actually looks like a small truck based SUV. The V6 Escape in 2wd form is very peppy, smooth, flex fueled, and will pull a 3,500 pound boat or travel trailer. And it has the classic SUV looks that people love, but is more green than big SUV's. It's also available in full hybrid mode which makes the Escape an even better look see. The Sportage can't compare. Add in much better residual value, over 3,000 Ford dealers to Kia's maybe 700, and again no contest. Easy to see why Escape sells so well, and new Escape is not that far away.

[DC Car Examiner]

Oh really? Sales don't mean anything? Buyers plopping down or financing $25,000 for these vehicles don't count? I would suspect most cross shop to some extent and are at least aware of what is out there. The Escape is a CUV based upon a car chassis that actually looks like a small truck based SUV. The V6 Escape in 2wd form is very peppy, smooth, flex fueled, and will pull a 3,500 pound boat or travel trailer. And it has the classic SUV looks that people love, but is more green than big SUV's. It's also available in full hybrid mode which makes the Escape an even better look see. The Sportage can't compare. Add in much better residual value, over 3,000 Ford dealers to Kia's maybe 700, and again no contest. Easy to see why Escape sells so well, and new Escape is not that far away.

 

If you feel the Escape is a great car because it sells well, do you also feel the Corolla is a great car because it sells well?

[RichardJensen]

You're looking at the situation from a perspective that ignores upcoming product. There will soon be a new Jetta and a new Passat, and you're assuming too early that won't make a difference.

 

You're kidding, right?

 

They'll increase their volume with better product---but their goals are...... unreasonable.

[RichardJensen]

So your big complaints are visibility (valid) and styling (subjective). That just doesn't make a generally pleasant vehicle last place to me.

The weight you assign visibility is subjective.

 

Don't let's pretend that there's anything about these tests of yours that ISN'T subjective.

 

And I'm not just picking on you because you're trying to earn some money off a website. I despise C&D even more for attempting to paint their subjectivity as somehow objective through the use of a baseless scoring system.

[FordBuyer]

If you feel the Escape is a great car because it sells well, do you also feel the Corolla is a great car because it sells well?

 

Let's put it another way.....The Sportage doesn't sell as well as the Escape and the Sportage has a cheaper price as you say. And the V6 Escape with 6 speed auto is a much better vehicle than the Sportage V6 which is comparing apples with apples. Again, I'm not arguing with you that Escape is anything more than mid pack, but the Sportage is not worthy to the Escape. No way.

[DC Car Examiner]

Let's put it another way.....The Sportage doesn't sell as well as the Escape and the Sportage has a cheaper price as you say. And the V6 Escape with 6 speed auto is a much better vehicle than the Sportage V6 which is comparing apples with apples. Again, I'm not arguing with you that Escape is anything more than mid pack, but the Sportage is not worthy to the Escape. No way.

 

Why you're doing "apples to apples" as cylinder count rather than performance and price, I'm not sure. But if you want to do V6 to V6, the price difference grows even more.

 

But more to the reason the Sportage outranks the Escape is that because of its low price, there's a unique advantage to the Kia. If you're willing to give up a few qualities to get the cheapest car, there's a reason to buy the Sportage. There's no major characteristic unique to the Escape.

[DC Car Examiner]

You're kidding, right?

 

They'll increase their volume with better product---but their goals are...... unreasonable.

 

I don't think they'll meet their goals, but I think they'll come much closer than you think. You're writing them off way too early.

[Deanh]

Why you're doing "apples to apples" as cylinder count rather than performance and price, I'm not sure. But if you want to do V6 to V6, the price difference grows even more.

 

But more to the reason the Sportage outranks the Escape is that because of its low price, there's a unique advantage to the Kia. If you're willing to give up a few qualities to get the cheapest car, there's a reason to buy the Sportage. There's no major characteristic unique to the Escape.

so you are saying a cheaper price is a characteristic unique to the Sportage?.....I'm not a huge fan of the escape...but it SERIOUSLY trumps the Sportage in numerous areas, and the fact you are placing so much significance on ONE ( price ) confuses me.....so what you are saying if Ford de-contented ( gave up a few qualities ) to lower the sticker price they would have perhaps been veiwed in your eyes more favorably?......thats an interesting corner you are backing yourself into...say hello to MHLM5 when you get there, easy to spot...he wearing a TDI FOREVER shirt and his face is blue from holding his breath

[Deanh]

I don't think they'll meet their goals, but I think they'll come much closer than you think. You're writing them off way too early.

nope...theyre German remember.....

[sullynd]

Rather, despite underpinnings that are nearly a decade old, this SUV drives pleasantly and has a space-efficient interior.

 

Please be sure to mention that the underpinnings are nearly a decade old when you review the Equinox.

[RichardJensen]

You're writing them off way too early.

 

I don't think so.

 

I've demonstrated that on a financial basis, per unit sold, their NA operations are worse than Ford's were, even during the dark years of '07/'08.

 

What are VW's problem areas?

 

- Reliability

- Marketing

- Price

- 'SmartCar' Features

 

What is VW doing to solve them?

 

- They've moved up significantly from 2004's basement showing, but are still below average.

- Going from bad to worse

- We'll have to see

- No announcements, no predictions

 

So far, the only thing -on the ground- that VW has done to improve its fortunes is fix its horrendous initial quality. It remains to be seen if their VDS scores hold up. VW's abysmal '07 IQS was reflected in their '10 VDS score, so there's reason for some hope there.

 

Hopes for VW turning around in the US hinge on them being able to deliver something that they have NEVER before delivered to the US customer: an affordable and reliable family sedan.

 

And to top it off, they're spending over a billion dollars to build a plant for this sedan. A plant that's going to have a nameplate capacity of about 200k or so.

Edited May 15, 2010 by RichardJensen

[twintornados]

I have a question DC....how do they do on E85??