I know why Honda's last longer

[Ralph Greene]

Honda Accords have a reputation for long trouble free life. I can attest for their long life, as we have driven numerous Accords for a long time, but wouldn't exactly say they are trouble free or more trouble free than my Fords.

 

But they do have a different type of owner. Judging by the crowd at the very nice Honda dealership this AM (almost a free breakfast), it was a very upscale crowd. This crowd spends money maintaining their vehicles. Service advisors were recommending (and getting permission to do) services that at a Ford dealership would have been considered either not necessary or over servicing. I hadn't been there in a while, and just had forgotten how this group operated.

 

Most Honda owners at this dealership really buy into the idea their cars can run well past 100,000 miles and still run like new. Some this morning were near 200,000 miles, and still running good. But they were servicing every little part of the car. Any car will last a long time if you are constantly rebuilding it. Many were picked up in BMW's and Mercedes.... that crowd.

 

Many Honda owners can afford to drive much more expensive cars, but choose Honda's as a smart choice, then spend the money (like old Volvo owners) to maintain them. I also think it smart.

 

I had my daughter's car there for regular oil/filter service plus a trans fluid change, sticky throttle, brake light on sometime, replace cabin air filter, and light off in the clock. Sound familiar? The service advisor says sure they do that and we have a standard fix...no big deal. It wasn't either $275 later. Car is fixed and runs great. I left there thinking it better last a long time....LOL (with hand on wallet).

 

Maybe the problem with Ford and GM image is not so much their cars but they need different car buyers.

Edited June 13, 2006 by Ralph Greene

[Guest Sixcav]

Good one Ralph. I gotta agree with much of this. Honda makes it a point to press upon the people that buy their cars the importance of maintenance. I guess Ford and GM think it just seems obvious only the problem is to a lot of people it's not obvious. For many people a car is just another home appliance. A four wheeled washing machine if you will. As long as it's working, don't fuck with it. Of course cars are not like that at all. They require maintenance to stay in top running order. Everyone that I have ever known that got 150 or 200 thousand miles out of a car (regardless of brand) all had the same thing in common and that is they made sure the car was well maintained. With respect to this notion that it's only higher income trendy types that buy Honda cars, that may be the case in your area but not so much around here. Here it's a good mix of income levels buying them although I have to agree that the price of a brand new fairly well equipped Accord is just shy of BMW 330 territory these days. For that kind of smack I'd just buy the BMW, but then the problem around here is it seems the only thing that drives BMW's are the little button up shirt and tie types that think their shit don't stink and evreyone else on the road is somehow lesser because they don't drive a european sports sedan. I love those types because the Mustang eats their fuckin lunch, but that's another story. In summation let me just say, yes you're right, a well maintained vehicle is going to last a long time, that's just common sense. An all to rare quality. I think Honda probably does a good job convincing many of their buyers that they need to have good maintenance done and done regularly. Everyone knows that the service department is where the dealership makes all its money anyway, so yeah, I think some Ford dealers need to work that aspect a little better. My own Ford dealer is pittifull about it. When I bought the car they didn't even bother to give me a tour of the service department like they are supposed to. As a result, they get none of my maintenance dollars, I take it elsewhere to have all the maintenance done.

[FAST LS1]

How do you account for used cars, that have had multiple owners, that still drive great?

Example, my roomate in college bought a used 1992 Honda Accord in 2000. The car

had at least two owners before him, and had about 90K miles on it. He bought the

car for $3500, wasn't in great shape, but not beaten on either. He did just the regular

maintenance, oil changes etc and the car lasted to over 150k miles in 2004 when he

sold it for $2800. The interior in the car still looked great, no broke plastic or moldings.

The car still rode and drove fine also. I think the difference between his Accord and

say a Tuaras, Beretta, or comparable DC vehicle is the fact it was still in one piece

after that many miles, and still in great shape when he sold it for $700 less than what

he bought if for after 4 years and 60k miles.

Look at and 1992 family sedan from Ford, GM, or DC and I bet you'll see a pile.

Our neighbor at school had a 1995 Beretta he took very good care of and it was falling

to pieces, same goes for our other neighbors 1998 Tuaras, it was always in the shop

and only 3-4 years old at the time.

[Guest Sixcav]

FastLS1, I've said this before, not to you though and I'll say it again. For every story you can provide about how some friend or family member you know had some Honda or Toyota that was this long lasting car that held up year after year I can provide just as many stories about people I know that had the same experience with a Ford or a GM car. One person's experience in life and who they interact with is far too narrow a scope to base a truly informed decision on. For this you need research data. My own Uncle had a 1994 Taurus that had 250+ thousand miles on it when he sold it. It still looked good and still ran fine and he made sure to keep it well maintained. I can provide story after story about people like that that I know, both import and domestic owners. I've known people that also had import and domestic cars that gave them nothing but trouble. My own sister had a mid 90's Nissan Stanza that was an absolute piece of junk. Her friends Nissan 240 likewise was nothing but trouble from day one, while my Mothers own 240 was a trouble free car. I don't hold all of Nissan and all of Ford accountable because a few of my friends had good or bad cars. Like I said, that persepctive is far to narrow a view to make a truly informed decision. As for your neighbors 1998 Taurus, perhaps you didn't know that 96 through 99 were the most trouble prone Taurus cars ever built. Similarly, you don't know who owned these used cars before your friend bought them, perhaps someone who did the maintenance. It's also possible that when the car dealer he got it from got the car that the first thing they did was put it in the garage and pull a complete tune up on it to make sure it was back in good running condition. Most reputable car dealers will do that with a used car and if by chance the car is in such bad shape that it can't be tuned without spending major dollars they will usually just wholesale it and it never hits the lot. Maybe you didn't know that I don't know. Hope this helps you out.

Edited June 13, 2006 by Sixcav

[4d4evr-1]

How do you account for used cars, that have had multiple owners, that still drive great?

Example, my roomate in college bought a used 1992 Honda Accord in 2000. The car

had at least two owners before him, and had about 90K miles on it. He bought the

car for $3500, wasn't in great shape, but not beaten on either. He did just the regular

maintenance, oil changes etc and the car lasted to over 150k miles in 2004 when he

sold it for $2800. The interior in the car still looked great, no broke plastic or moldings.

The car still rode and drove fine also. I think the difference between his Accord and

say a Tuaras, Beretta, or comparable DC vehicle is the fact it was still in one piece

after that many miles, and still in great shape when he sold it for $700 less than what

he bought if for after 4 years and 60k miles.

Look at and 1992 family sedan from Ford, GM, or DC and I bet you'll see a pile.

Our neighbor at school had a 1995 Beretta he took very good care of and it was falling

to pieces, same goes for our other neighbors 1998 Tuaras, it was always in the shop

and only 3-4 years old at the time.

 

I had a '98 Taurus SE 3.0 Duratec that I traded a year ago with 130,000 miles and had the brake pads replaced one time with rotors turned. Changed oil only after 5,000 miles and never tuned up. Changed the trans fluid @ 120,000 miles. Put two sets of tires on and nothing else except the brake pedal sensor needed adjusting or replacing when traded. I drove the car hard, regularly seeing over 6500 rpms.

 

Don't tell me they won't last..............

[Guest Sixcav]

I had a '98 Taurus SE 3.0 Duratec that I traded a year ago with 130,000 miles and had the brake pads replaced one time with rotors turned. Changed oil only after 5,000 miles and never tuned up. Changed the trans fluid @ 120,000 miles. Put two sets of tires on and nothing else except the brake pedal sensor needed adjusting or replacing when traded. I drove the car hard, regularly seeing over 6500 rpms.

 

Don't tell me they won't last..............

 

 

See what I mean?

[grbeck]

There's only one problem with this thesis...if improving quality were only a matter of getting owners in for regular maintenance and urging them to replace components as frequently as possible, wouldn't GM and Ford have done this by now...at least with their more expensive lines (Buick, Cadillac and Lincoln), who are likely to be as well-to-do as the average Honda customer.

 

After all, enacting a more rigorous service schedule is a much cheaper route to higher quality than redesigning components, reconfiguring factories and upgrading materials (all of which these companies have done over the past two decades in a bid to improve their products).

 

It would also be a boon for the dealers - they could expect regular visits from customers who would be keeping their Fords, Lincolns and Mercurys up to date as far as service is concerned.

 

In one easy move, GM and Ford could strengthen dealers and improve reliability scores while saving lots of money.

Edited June 13, 2006 by grbeck

[FAST LS1]

I drive a GM car, but have to admit Honda's and Toyota large volume cars are just generally better cars for people who treat them like appliances. Granted it's gotten much closer in the last 2-4 years, but I'd feel much more confident buying a 2000 Accord or Camary, than a 2000 Tuaras, Impala, Intrepid etc. There's still a quality gap between the domestics and big runners for the imports IMO. There are 500 people where I work, just looking in the parking lot at comparable domestic vs import cars of the same time period, in

general more of the imports look to be in better shape than the domestics.

[Guest Sixcav]

For the record, 500 people is less than .00001 % of the American population so again, you're looking at the landscape through a drinking straw and tryng to describe the whole thing. Doesn't work.

[RichardJensen]

There's only one problem with this thesis...if improving quality were only a matter of getting owners in for regular maintenance and urging them to replace components as frequently as possible, wouldn't GM and Ford have done this by now...at least with their more expensive lines (Buick, Cadillac and Lincoln), who are likely to be as well-to-do as the average Honda customer.

Actually, Buick, Lincoln, and Cadillac DO have much higher reliability than correpsonding models from lesser brands.

 

I think there is some truth to this, the old concept of "adverse selection" at work. If people are buying Tauruses retail because they can't afford Camries or Accords...

 

...

[matthewq4b]

There is some merit to this. If a vehical is looked after it will last longer no questions. And maybe most Import owners are not as likly to give the same abuse that domestic owners are in some parts.

And in my part of the world imports on avergae have about 5 year shorter life span than equivelant domestics. There are still piles of First Gen taurus's on the road here and piles of Tempo's and even those crap can K cars are still found in decent numbers. But the Civic's, Accords & Camry's of the same vintage are no where to be seen.

 

I think the thing is the imports tend not to get treated the same as the domestics. And abuse for abuse imports will not last as long. Ya the domestic's may have more nit picky shit. But the Imports will tend to see major failers much sooner. (engine tranny ect )

 

I got Over 1,000,000 KM (620,000) Miles on my GM befor the orginal tranny finally bit the dust after being abused in 18"deep wet snow this past winter. And belive me this car was not babied. At least 1/3 of miles were on back and gravel roads. More than once I had it sunk up to axels in that gooey Alberta Clay that is so common here and got it out under it's own power.

 

Yes the imports do last but only if taken care of. If they are treated with anything but the upmost care they tend to grenade way befor equivelent domestics.

 

With temps ranging from colder then -40F to 85f or hotter, equipement gets severe punishment here. And in those conditions the imports generally do not out last some of the worst POS's detroit has pumped out.

 

Domestics that see the same leval of care that the Imports do, tend to always out perform and last them.

 

 

Matthew

Edited June 13, 2006 by matthewq4b

[ANTAUS]

Well I'll share my experience with my dealerships have been great to me, and why my Lincolns last longer...

 

I drive-in, immediately have a technician attend me, they ask questions, I supply answers, and walk me to the lounge where I wait. With coffee, donuts, pastries. While looking at other vehicles coming in for service, I notice how well taken care of the cars are. I mean, what could 65 yr old granny do to her vehicle ya know? Luckily the maintenence for the first year on Lincolns is covered, although I think they are removing that, if not already, but I'm covered.

 

Inside the lounge, I await with a few other people, quality conversation of an older nature, some CNN, UsaToday, Wall Street Journal laying around. Some magazines as well. Ask others what they are in for...One guy "Fred" was noticed while just getitng his oil change, that they heard the vehicle make a certain noise, which was attributed to worn brake pads, and said they would take care of it, no change (even if he was out of warranty). Janice next to me was in because her daughter noticed that one of the speakers was blown in her Navigator, which of course was immaculate...Told me she spent $20 a week on having it hand washed...And I'm sure she didnt notice because she was hard of hearing actually...Since I had to rebat myself a few time.

 

And yes, 15 minutes later, the service staff came to remind me, my car was done already...asked me if I wanted my vehicle washed... I tell them yes, they ask "machine wash, or hand wash"... Being I have black, of course hand washed.

 

Just excellent service all around. Of course, granted, the majority of those there are older, won't ever drive their vehicles as hard as I do, you know 90% of the Navigators there have never seen un-paved roads, and those THX systems will hardly be blasted to their full potential, and those Town Cars are not being tossed aimlessly around...so Yes... I believe there's a certain class and demographic out there, which shows they too take care of their vehicle (much more than I do)

 

BTW, this is my 3rd LS-8. 2000 with 123K when I turned it in and all it had was the re-programming of the tranny then a 2003 which I had for 115K miles troublefree, and now the '05 with 18K (broken cupholder-my fault for getting head inside a vehicle).

Edited June 14, 2006 by ANTAUS

[JLaudioF150]

....(broken cupholder-my fault for getting head inside a vehicle).

 

I re-read that a couple of times to make sure...

 

:bandance: :happy feet:

[Biker16]

Maybe the problem with Ford and GM image is not so much their cars but they need different car buyers.

 

How true I have seen how poorly some ford owners treat thier cars.

 

It is no secret that ford is in general low brow than toyota, and there is a snob factor, involved.

 

My 2000 Focus has just passed the 100k mark, and it is requireing alot of maintenence on wear items.

 

The F'n salt has rust everything under the car. I have broken so many bolts that are frozen.

 

the body is fine its just everything else sub frame, suspension compnents. that are rotting.

 

My list

both axles

struts, springs, and shocks.

sway bar bushings, and sway bars

 

up next the rear lower control arms, the busoing has rotted out and sitcks causing undersired handling. ithe car almost rides like new. almost.

new coolant hoses. old ones getting a bubble

clutch, original still goin strong.

and tune-up, plugs and wires.

I magine honda owners are doing the same things, but most ford owners wouldn't bother, under the false belive that thier cars won't last long enough to to be worth the effort.

 

The killer for ford is resale value, Ford reach the threshold where its cheaper to scrap than to repair.

[MrGarabaldi]

I had a '98 Taurus SE 3.0 Duratec that I traded a year ago with 130,000 miles and had the brake pads replaced one time with rotors turned. Changed oil only after 5,000 miles and never tuned up. Changed the trans fluid @ 120,000 miles. Put two sets of tires on and nothing else except the brake pedal sensor needed adjusting or replacing when traded. I drove the car hard, regularly seeing over 6500 rpms.

 

Don't tell me they won't last..............

 

 

I had a 1997 Taurus that had 248,000 miles on it before the tranny went out. the car ran well until that point. and I did all the maintenance and drove it like I stole it. the car gave me no problems at all, except the usual brakes, tires, maintenance stuff. I swear by Tauruses.

 

Y'all have a good one

[mrballsonya]

BTW, this is my 3rd LS-8. 2000 with 123K when I turned it in and all it had was the re-programming of the tranny then a 2003 which I had for 115K miles troublefree, and now the '05 with 18K (broken cupholder-my fault for getting head inside a vehicle).

 

Sorry To Hijack here... but as a Proud Wixom Assembly Plant worker, I wanted to thank Antaus for his loyalty. I'm glad you've had such good luck with your LS's, I wish more people would've given the LS a shot....maybe we'd still be making them. Speaking of the LS, I had the extreme displeasure of taking the last LS body at WAP out to the scrap yard yesterday ,.... man what a bummer that was. Only Town Cars from here on out

[lfeg]

This is something that I have commented on before. It has a lot to do with the philosophy that the manufacturer has the dealers buy into. Honda and Toyota have done a good job of this - I call it the total ownership experience. The dealers must get the customers to buy into the idea that the best place to get your car serviced is the dealer service department, and that routine maintenance (oil changes, etc.) is a great opportunity to sell PM. (Preventive maintenance) Get the customers to spend some to replace things before they break without warning and the customer will have a better impression of the vehicle. It is a great way to improve impressions of the customers and others, and it ends up costing the the dealers and automakers very little. In fact it can add to the bottom line, as the dealer gets more "customer pay" service work as well as having satisfied customers. Too often going to a Ford dealer for service is looked at as a pain, and this must be changed if Fords fortunes are to improve.

[kach22i]

Good point about maintenance, the other example is a well used Ferrari. Repairs are so expensive they are often put off causing additional problems and or the car just sits. Not a lot of high mileage Ferraris out there as a rule.

[Roadrunner]

I think there is some truth to this, the old concept of "adverse selection" at work. If people are buying Tauruses retail because they can't afford Camries or Accords...

 

Quite possibly. I don't know where you find used Camries or Accords, but you find used Tauruses in the lower-class neighborhoods here.

 

I suppose you find the used Camries among the college kids who got hand-me-down vehicles.

 

 

I had the extreme displeasure of taking the last LS body at WAP out to the scrap yard yesterday

 

They didn't even build a car under that body? For shame...

 

 

Too often going to a Ford dealer for service is looked at as a pain, and this must be changed if Fords fortunes are to improve.

 

True. Ford dealers are to be looked at with suspicion when they walk up to you and say, "hey we can fix this as a preventative measure"

Sure... you just want a quick buck.

 

Only with a trusting mechanic would that sort of discussion work in favor of the dealership to get the part replaced.

[Project-Fairmont]

Part of the issue may be the preceived value of cars today. Generally the so-called Big Three are in most cases being sold for wholsale. While the first owner may be very dilengent in terms of maintence, the subsiquint 2nd and 3rd owners are picking up a car with much less residule value and of low preceived quality. Thus maintence gets the short shift down the road.

 

I am hopeful though that the "certified" (10 yr warrenty) arrangement can help create value for second hand Fords. We purchased a Certified Avaiator and while it only has 32k miles it is flawless and drives like new as it was serviced by the first owner and now very dilegently by us.

 

BTW, Honda dealers are arrogent: We traded in a very depedable '96 EB Explorer on a '01 CRV (mistake!) and even though it was done deal he felt compelled to tell us how "Honda's don't break down like domestics" That almost broke the deal, the nerve! I have had virtually nothing but Fords for over 20 years and never had major issues! Pity the brain washed...

 

It is very frustrating to see the masses buy foreign makes so readily now (me included), even old timers in Avalons who should be in a re-designed Grand Marquis (if there were such a thing).

Edited June 14, 2006 by Project-Fairmont

[Aqeel Mahesri]

For the record, 500 people is less than .00001 % of the American population so again, you're looking at the landscape through a drinking straw and tryng to describe the whole thing. Doesn't work.

 

Actually, it does work. The accuracy of a statistical sample depends on the size of the sample and is independent of the size of the population, provided the population is sufficiently larger than the sample. A sample of 500, provided it is randomly selected, is equally good whether you are looking at a small town or a large nation.

[jaydez]

I think the probelm doesnt come back to the customer, it come back to the Manufacturer. I am in the market for my first new car ever. At the top of my list will most likely bee a 2006 or 2007 (if it takes me that lonmg to sell my truck) Honda Civic. I have been a pro domestic my while life and owned 7 GMS or Fords, mostly fords.

 

When talking tot he salesman one of the things he stressed was taking a free class called Honda 101. THey hold it at the dealership for new owners a few times a month and provide free dinner to everyone that attends. It is held in the service department and it a class on why it is important to maintain your vehicle. They also throw in the forst 3 oil changes free of charge to get you in the habbit of having ti serviced regularly. Theys showroon is new, their service department is clean and their employees are firendly. They also have a free shuttle to take you to work or home any time your car is in for service. Even if its for only an oil change. Everyhting gets fixed right the first time.

 

The ford dellership down the road is old. the peoople in there are rude and unresponsive to customers. They dont teach their customer to service the vehicle or give them a ride to work when they bring their car in for service. If you have something wrong with yuor car (and all the fords my family had had may in the warranty) you always get "we cant replicate what you are talking about so we didnt fix it." I do all my own car work cus I never wanted to go though what my mom did with the local ford dealer. It is enough for anyone not to maintain their car jsut to they dont have to deal with the rude, obnoxious people in the dealership.

 

Again. It comes down to tratting your customers as a customer, not someone who bought someting fromy ou now wantas to complain. Every company should educate their custmers on why they should maintain their purchase. Too many cusmtomers in every industry get neglected after the sale. Only the companies who treat their past custmers right have people who are loyal enough to take care of their purchase.

 

 

.... end rant.

[bri719]

I re-read that a couple of times to make sure...

 

:bandance: :happy feet:

 

 

there is such thing as having "too much" fun with your car...even a Lincoln, lol

[Guest Sixcav]

Ageel, it doesn't work. There are about 300 people in the building where I work and the vast majority of them drive either Ford or GM. There are at least 12 Mustangs of various years. There are of course some Hondas and a few Suzuki's. Surprisingly only 1 Toyota and it's a truck. So that directly counters what LS1 observes at his job place. So which one of us is right? The answer is neither one. It all depends on the local culture in the area you live. In some places such as up near Virginia Subaru is extremely popular, while around here, you might see 1 every couple days or so. Just south of Nashville is Springhill, Tennessee where they build Saturns. If you drive through there, guess what, you see a boat load of Saturns on the road. So no, just observing the local conditions doesn't work. It's going to be skewed by the local culture because most people are of the crowd following herd mantality. They buy the same kind of car so they don't have to risk standing out. It's a boring, drab and shitty way to live your life, but there it is. lol

[Roadrunner]

When talking tot he salesman one of the things he stressed was taking a free class called Honda 101. THey hold it at the dealership for new owners a few times a month and provide free dinner to everyone that attends. It is held in the service department and it a class on why it is important to maintain your vehicle. They also throw in the forst 3 oil changes free of charge to get you in the habbit of having ti serviced regularly.

 

Except for having a new showroom, the local Ford dealer did that when we picked up a Mercury. (Although, I don't think they offered free oil changes.)

 

Don't know what happened at the meetings, we didn't need them.

Edited June 14, 2006 by Roadrunner