fordmantpw Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 Hmmm.... 1999 and 2000, we sold over 330,000 Rangers. Since 2000 the Tacoma has been holding a steady 150,000 ish with a minor rise in '05='07 while Ranger sales fell off a cliff. What you said right there is the key that Ranger buyers aren't leaving for Tacomas. If Ranger sales have fallen off a cliff, and Tacoma sales have stayed steady, seems to reason Ranger buyers aren't buying Tacomas, otherwise Tacoma numbers would have gone up with the fall of Ranger sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 What you said right there is the key that Ranger buyers aren't leaving for Tacomas. If Ranger sales have fallen off a cliff, and Tacoma sales have stayed steady, seems to reason Ranger buyers aren't buying Tacomas, otherwise Tacoma numbers would have gone up with the fall of Ranger sales. I think what he's trying to say is that the Tacoma's sales have stayed steady in a declining segment because potential Ranger buyers are migrating to the Tacoma due to the lack of an updated/all new Ranger. Is he right? The world may never know, but a sound theory none the less. But I seriously doubt is getting out of a truck segment permanently. I wouldn't be surprised to see a sub-F150 "concept" during this show season. Something that will redefine the smaller than full size truck market for years to come. Something neither Honda could do with their Ridgeline nor what even Ford could do with their own Sport Trac. I think this rumored D3 Explorer based pickup has some potential to be a real segment buster. It may not sell in huge numbers, but should be more profitable. But I guess we will all have to wait & see. I also think the Transit Connect will pickup (pun intended) many of the commercial Ranger sales that were being used as delivery trucks. Especially when the electric versions are more widely available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 I think what he's trying to say is that the Tacoma's sales have stayed steady in a declining segment because potential Ranger buyers are migrating to the Tacoma due to the lack of an updated/all new Ranger. Is he right? The world may never know, but a sound theory none the less. Good point...we will never know for sure. But I seriously doubt is getting out of a truck segment permanently. I wouldn't be surprised to see a sub-F150 "concept" during this show season. Something that will redefine the smaller than full size truck market for years to come. Something neither Honda could do with their Ridgeline nor what even Ford could do with their own Sport Trac. I think this rumored D3 Explorer based pickup has some potential to be a real segment buster. It may not sell in huge numbers, but should be more profitable. But I guess we will all have to wait & see. I also think the Transit Connect will pickup (pun intended) many of the commercial Ranger sales that were being used as delivery trucks. Especially when the electric versions are more widely available. I agree, and think a D3 pickup would serve the needs of what a high percentage of Ranger users (if not all of them) use their truck for. And using an existing chassis makes it feasible, and profitable at a smaller number of sales. Honestly, I would love such a vehicle as a daily driver. I would use it for taking the kids to daycare/school, running errands, going to work when I have to go to the office, as well as hunting. I would tow my utility trailer and SUV easily. If we don't go the motor home route, this would save wear and tear on my SD diesel. If we do go the MH route, this would be a perfect vehicle for me since I would really no longer have a need for a full-size pickup. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 Good point...we will never know for sure. I agree, and think a D3 pickup would serve the needs of what a high percentage of Ranger users (if not all of them) use their truck for. And using an existing chassis makes it feasible, and profitable at a smaller number of sales. Honestly, I would love such a vehicle as a daily driver. I would use it for taking the kids to daycare/school, running errands, going to work when I have to go to the office, as well as hunting. I would tow my utility trailer and SUV easily. If we don't go the motor home route, this would save wear and tear on my SD diesel. If we do go the MH route, this would be a perfect vehicle for me since I would really no longer have a need for a full-size pickup. I don't think a D3 pickup would go after Ranger owners that much, I really think Ford's plan for ex-Ranger owners is the V6 F150 & TC. I really think the D3 pickup would go after a new market for people that want a truck like vehicle, but not too truck like. Basically what Honda attempted to but failed with that abortion of a vehicle. Ridgeline sales are crap, but the people that own them, really love them. As long as a D3 pickup has a separate bed & cab and is not as ugly as the Ridgeline, I really think it would do well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 I don't think a D3 pickup would go after Ranger owners that much, I really think Ford's plan for ex-Ranger owners is the V6 F150 & TC. I really think the D3 pickup would go after a new market for people that want a truck like vehicle, but not too truck like. Basically what Honda attempted to but failed with that abortion of a vehicle. Ridgeline sales are crap, but the people that own them, really love them. As long as a D3 pickup has a separate bed & cab and is not as ugly as the Ridgeline, I really think it would do well. I agree that D3 wouldn't go after Ranger owners, but I think that is largely due to the cost of entry. How many Ranger buyers buy the truck because of the low cost? I think the D3 will be priced higher than a Ranger, and will be perfect for those "not to trucky" folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 I think what he's trying to say is that the Tacoma's sales have stayed steady in a declining segment because potential Ranger buyers are migrating to the Tacoma due to the lack of an updated/all new Ranger. Is he right? The world may never know, but a sound theory none the less. Yes, that is what I was trying to say, only you did it more clearly, lol. Look, I think that an efficient V6 in an F150 is a great thing. I just feel that the leap to an F150 is overkill in both the size and cost department. I have an '08 FX4 Ranger that cost $25,0000ish on A-Plan; I would have gladly paid $30g if it had reasonable seating for 4 people, an updated more fuel efficient engine but otherwise the same capablities. Gas here in Canada has shot up another 4 cents a litre, a gallon here cost $4.26 a gallon as it is, with it projected to hit $4.50 by Christmas. As good as the V6 F150 will be on gas, obviously a smaller truck can do much better. And that's where Ford is missing the boat IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 (edited) You don't know that for certain, that's only your theory without research on Tacoma owners. As the segment decreases and some buyers move to other vehicle types for their needs, it is just as easily plausable that the declining Tacoma numbers were tempered by ex-Ranger owners or prospective Ranger owners defecting. If you look at these numbers (what I can easily find): http://en.wikipedia...._(North_America) Max Ranger Sales: 348,358 (1999) Min Ranger Sales: 55,600 (2008) Ratio: 84% drop http://en.wikipedia....i/Toyota_Tacoma Max Tacoma Sales: 178,351 (2006) Min Tacoma Sales: 144,655 (2008) Ratio: 19% drop Big difference. As a matter of fact, let's look at the sales trend. When did the Ranger really start dying off? Hmmm.... 1999 and 2000, we sold over 330,000 Rangers. Since 2000 the Tacoma has been holding a steady 150,000 ish with a minor rise in '05='07 while Ranger sales fell off a cliff. Why do you think that is? LOL, Tacoma has not been holding steady , so here's an update, So far this year Tacoma sales are around 90,000 versus 102,000 the same time last year, 2009, the year when the ass fell out of everything, so yes Tacoma sales are definitely falling maybe not as quickly as Ranger but certainly trending down. Ford is getting out of Ranger small truck market because that is what buyers are doing. Edited December 3, 2010 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 LOL, Tacoma has not been holding steady , so here's an update, So far this year Tacoma sales are around 90,000 versus 102,000 the same time last year, 2009, the year when the ass fell out of everything, so yes Tacoma sales are definitely falling maybe not as quickly as Ranger but certainly trending down. Ford is getting out of Ranger small truck market because that is what buyers are doing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_F-Series F150 Yearly American sales Calendar Year - Total American sales 1999 - 869,001 2000 - 876,716 2001 - 823,681 2002 - 813,701 2003 - 845,586 2004 - 939,511 2005 - 901,463 2006 - 796,039 2007 - 690,589 2008 - 515,513 2009 - 413,625 By the same argument, Ford should be getting out of the half ton truck market too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 (edited) By the same argument, Ford should be getting out of the half ton truck market too. It's not the same argument, F truck has significantly increased sales this year over 2009. This year F truck is trending back up to over 500,000 and looks set to exceed 600,000 in 2011. If you can show me an upward trend with Tacoma or Ranger or even Colorado then I will concur with your logic. Edited December 4, 2010 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 What you said right there is the key that Ranger buyers aren't leaving for Tacomas. If Ranger sales have fallen off a cliff, and Tacoma sales have stayed steady, seems to reason Ranger buyers aren't buying Tacomas, otherwise Tacoma numbers would have gone up with the fall of Ranger sales. Tacoma sales are not steady, they dropped to just over 100,000 this time last year and are now around 90,000 - that another 10,000 down in a freshening market... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stpatrick90 Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 (edited) http://en.wikipedia....i/Ford_F-Series F150 Yearly American sales Calendar Year - Total American sales 1999 - 869,001 2000 - 876,716 2001 - 823,681 2002 - 813,701 2003 - 845,586 2004 - 939,511 2005 - 901,463 2006 - 796,039 2007 - 690,589 2008 - 515,513 2009 - 413,625 By the same argument, Ford should be getting out of the half ton truck market too. As per wikipedia COMPACT/MIDSIZE TRUCKS Colorado / Canyon 2004 - 144,668 2005 - 163,204 2006 - 117,855 2007 - 96,604 2008 - 69,320 2009 - 42,520 From 2004 to 2009 71% down Tacoma 2000 - 147,295 2001 - 161,983 2002 - 151,960 2003 - 154,154 2004 - 152,933 2005 - 168,831 2006 - 178,351 2007 - 173,230 2008 - 144,655 2009 - 111,824 From 2000 to 2009 24% down Ranger 1999 - 348,358 2000 - 330,125 2001 - Wikipedia has no info 2002 - 226,094 2003 - 209,117 2004 - 156,322 2005 - 120,958 2006 - 92,420 2007 - 72,711 2008 - 65,872 2009 - 55,600 From 1999 to 2009 84% down Dakota 1999 - 144,148 2000 - 177,395 2001 - 154,479 2002 - 130,712 2003 - 111,273 2004 - 105,614 2005 - 104,051 2006 - 76,098 2007 - 50,702 2008 - 26,044 2009 - 10,690 From 1999 to 2009 93% down FULLSIZE TRUCKS Tundra 2000 - 100,445 2001 - 108,863 2002 - 99,333 2003 - 101,316 2004 - 112,484 2005 - 126,529 2006 - 124,508 2007 - 196,555 2008 - 137,249 2009 - 79,385 From 2000 to 2009 21% downs Ram 1999 - 428,930 2000 - 380,874 2001 - 344,538 2002 - 396,934 2003 - 449,371 2004 - 426,289 2005 - 400,543 2006 - 364,177 2007 - 358,295 2008 - 245,840 2009 - 177,268 From 1999 to 2009 59% down Silverado/Sierra 1998 - 698,809 1999 - 844,843 2000 - 831,026 2001 - 926,205 2002 - 854,691 2003 - 880,991 2004 - 894,524 2005 - 935,468 2006 - 846,805 2007 - 826,500 2008 - 633,609 2009 - 428,386 From 1998 to 2009 39% down FSeries 1999 - 869,001 2000 - 876,716 2001 - 823,681 2002 - 813,701 2003 - 845,586 2004 - 939,511 2005 - 901,463 2006 - 796,039 2007 - 690,589 2008 - 515,513 2009 - 413,625 From 1999 to 2009 52% down Fullsize Pickups on average are down 43% over the last decade Compact/Midsize Pickups on average are down 68% over the last decade However as noted Fullsize pickup sales are on the upswing this year and Compact/Midsize Pickup sales aren't Edited December 4, 2010 by stpatrick90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 2009 - 413,625 By the same argument, Ford should be getting out of the half ton truck market too. Nope. 500K is enough volume to support a dedicated platform and factory. If Ranger had that type of volume it wouldn't matter if it was trending downward. When you're under 100K it does matter. I'm still not convinced Ford is giving up on the market. They're just giving up on the current Ranger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 They're just giving up on the current Ranger. Where have you been? They gave up on the current Ranger 10 year ago, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 (edited) Where have you been? They gave up on the current Ranger 10 year ago, So why has Tacoma also collapsed so spectacularly in the past 4 years, could it be that most of those sales were linked to entry level work trucks? 2006 - 178,351 2007 - 173,230 2008 - 144,655 2009 - 111,824 Nov 2010 - 90,000 Edited December 4, 2010 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 (edited) So why has Tacoma also collapsed so spectacularly in the past 4 years, could it be that most of those sales were linked to entry level work trucks? 2006 - 178,351 2007 - 173,230 2008 - 144,655 2009 - 111,824 Nov 2010 - 90,000 Actually, if you project the 2010 numbers I would guess that Toyota will still break 100,000 units by years end. At any rate, in my opinion, it's 3 things The first is obviously directly or indirectly related to the economy -- both retail and fleet buyers are going to cut back on spending, and seeing that in many cases a Tacoma/Ranger is a "secondary" household vehicle that is usually the first household budget item to get hacked. The second issue is the problem starting in '07 with Tacoma buybacks and rusted, collapsing frames; that Jap engineering just isn't there compared to domestics (yet) which was reinforced by collapsing tailgates and severe ass-wobble in the Tundra, That would jade a few buyers. The third is all of Toyota's SUA problems. Yeah, I know the first thing Toyota apologists are going to say is that the issue was overblown; but truck buyers tend to be men, and to be quite frank we're an egotistical, conceited bunch. Not as many guys are going to want to be the butt of runaway car jokes if front of other men, especially when the news and TV were constantly making fun of Toyota owners (ie Jay Leno and Letterman). So while it didn't seem to affect cars purchases severely (which are usually appliance purchases really, because who gets excited about buying a Camry), I think the impact on truck sales was much more severe as both Tundra and Tacoma sales numbers bear out. That said, it doesn't make a solid representation for the small truck market. The top two contenders, Toyota and Ford, square off. So you have a choice between a weakly engineered fully featured truck that may or may not stop VS a brick shithouse that drinks gas like a fish and is still stuck in the 90s -- is it any wonder the segment is shrinking? Edited December 4, 2010 by OAC_Sparky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGolden Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 FWIW, A large truck parts company in my area had a whole fleet of 2wd rangers for deliver vehicles. Nine of the 19 rangers are now replaced with the transit connect. They absolutely love them and plan to make that the vehicle of choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 Actually, if you project the 2010 numbers I would guess that Toyota will still break 100,000 units by years end. Yes they will because Toyota have already sold 8,616 in November for a year to date of 95,228 compared to 7,633 in Nov 2009 when the YTD was 102,327...a fall of 6.6% LINK to Toyota sales chart Not trying to start an argument but most sectors are clearly on the rise this year but the light truck segment is not, Tacoma sales are less than in 2009 horror year. Toyota is clearly not advancing on Ranger's diminishing sales and that is because the whole light truck segment is shrinking year on year. F Truck sales have increased approx 100,000 this year alone and look to do that again in 2011, that's why Ford is all for F Truck. Unfortunately, they realize that the small truck market is waning and have chosen to put funds in other products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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