theoldwizard Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) I know there are fewer HR salaried jobs because most are now in India. So the question is who are the 20K and how many are truly needed. Only a small percentage of the white collar work force actually works in any of the the plants (guessing 10-20% ?). Engineering, accounting, marketing, sales, customer service, etc etc. HR is almost 100% outsourced. Most of IT is also outsourced. US white collar has been reduced by more than 30% since 2006 and most of that happened in 2007. Remember, this reduced workforce has brought you the new Explorer as well as the new 5.0L and 6.2L engines in about the same time frame. The Fiesta and Focus were engineered overseas, but the Powertrain calibration and emission controls were the responsibility of US Powertrain Engineering. Edited January 28, 2011 by theoldwizard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marginal Economist Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Did anyone else notice this? http://www.detroitne...-to-average-$5K 20k salaried to 40k hourly? Is it me or is that 2:1 ratio seriously too high. Our profit sharing would have been much higher if Ford hadn't taken a $2.5 Billion hit in the fourth quarter, and especially if they would get rid of some of the dead weight salaried folks. Salaried does not equal management. The majority of salaried folks are General Salary Roll (GSR) and do not have direct reports. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcatswon1 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Your statement just shows how little you know about how salaried personnel get paid ! Salary, bonus and profit sharing are 3 separate items and very few "white collar" employees get "bonus" (only LL4 and above) once you get to Director/VP level, your bonus is "negotiated", meaning not every VP get the same as every other VP. Bonuses are also only paid if certain performance levels are meet (negotiated at the beginning of the year). Depending on the persons salary level these may be personal goals and/or group goals. Also, for VPs and above, some of their bonus may be in stock or stock options which can not be sold for several years. Most (if not all) the the "white collar" that you see/interface with are much lower (probably SG7-LL6). I am retired, but I know there was a lot of talk about converting their "profit sharing" into more of a bonus which could only be collected if certain objectives were meet. So the company might make profit and group might not get anything if its objectives were not met, and vice versa. Personally, I think ALL top level executives in ALL US companies are overpaid (especially when compared to their overseas counterparts) as are professional athletes and movie/television actors. Which is exactly what I was saying.........OVERPAID! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcatswon1 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Your statement just shows how little you know about how salaried personnel get paid ! Salary, bonus and profit sharing are 3 separate items and very few "white collar" employees get "bonus" (only LL4 and above) once you get to Director/VP level, your bonus is "negotiated", meaning not every VP get the same as every other VP. Bonuses are also only paid if certain performance levels are meet (negotiated at the beginning of the year). Depending on the persons salary level these may be personal goals and/or group goals. Also, for VPs and above, some of their bonus may be in stock or stock options which can not be sold for several years. Most (if not all) the the "white collar" that you see/interface with are much lower (probably SG7-LL6). I am retired, but I know there was a lot of talk about converting their "profit sharing" into more of a bonus which could only be collected if certain objectives were meet. So the company might make profit and group might not get anything if its objectives were not met, and vice versa. Personally, I think ALL top level executives in ALL US companies are overpaid (especially when compared to their overseas counterparts) as are professional athletes and movie/television actors. I am glad that I can be enlightened by such and old far....umm I mean old wizard like you. I was talking about their bonus compensation that they WILL be receiving for last year. It will be huge. As for anyone else who thinks that they deserve it, you are an unstable mind. There is no justification for ridiculous, inflated salaries and bonuses for the guys who cost more to employ (minus pay) than any hourly worker will be paid in compensation. i.e. company cars, company jets, fringe benefits, etc. I can only imagine how much it actually costs the company for Alan and Mark to work for it. Then you add the pay and bonuses and stock options. Especially when they add very little value if any to the products that we produce. Anybody can say yes or no. Why don't we try to put a monkey up there, pay him in bananas and see how much money we can save. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereswaldo Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 $5000 this year, should be higher in 2012, 2013, etc. Then stock dividends shold be rte-instated next year. $32/ share on 1/26/12 dont count on it. Read the latest...Ford says our profit share should have been more like $3,000. But they have big hearts. So next yr bigger profits could mean a lower payout then even this yrs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcatswon1 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 dont count on it. Read the latest...Ford says our profit share should have been more like $3,000. But they have big hearts. So next yr bigger profits could mean a lower payout then even this yrs. Where did you read that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereswaldo Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Where did you read that? Freep.com ...top of opening page........so much for really reaping the benefits of prosperity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagan Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) Our Union officials told us yesterday that Ford was not going to include the profits made overseas in the formula for profit sharing and that we would be getting about half what was originally announced. Thanks again Ford for thinking about us! THIS JUST IN!!! http://www.freep.com/article/20110128/BUSINESS01/110128044/0/BUSINESS0102/UAW-Ford-agreed-raise-profit-sharing?odyssey=mod_sectionstories We are getting $5,000!!! Edited January 28, 2011 by Pagan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budlight Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 $5000 this year, should be higher in 2012, 2013, etc. Then stock dividends shold be rte-instated next year. $32/ share on 1/26/12 profit sharing for next couple of years na lower cuz contract they will add more varables to profit sharein so they can keep it low good bargainin tool for ford at contract time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twincam Harley Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 dont count on it. Read the latest...Ford says our profit share should have been more like $3,000. But they have big hearts. So next yr bigger profits could mean a lower payout then even this yrs. Well, that settles the Equity in Sharing grievance!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Well, that settles the Equity in Sharing grievance!!! More like Ford management is buttering us up for contract talks. It's no secret that Ford wants more of our compensation to come from profit sharing and quality goals. To give us a small check now, with record earnings, it would jeopardize getting what they want to accomplish in September. Brilliant move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justme Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 5k average, biggest i've had since i've been in the company. i heard stories of good profit sharing, didnt think i'd see one like this. yeah, that's a pretty good one..Too bad they tax them, what? 42%? So, I figure it'll be more like $2,900.00 or $2,800.00 but hey I'll take it. Too bad all those tax dollars on bonuses aren't helping the American deficit like Ex-president Willy Clinton said it would. I mean this "is" a bonus right? or is it considered a gift? Either way they tax it out the butt and yet our deficit continues to grow...go figure.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Why don't we try to put a monkey up there, pay him in bananas and see how much money we can save. Things didn't work out to well when when Billy was sitting in that chair. I have already stated, I think ALL top tier management in ALL US companies are overpaid. So are most (all?) US professional athletes. Things have not worked out well for other, much smaller US companies when they tried to limit top executive pay, From Wikipedia Ben & Jerry's used to have a policy that no employee's rate of pay shall exceed seven times that of entry-level employees. In 1995, entry-level employees were paid $8 hourly, and the highest paid employee was President and Chief Operating Officer Chuck Lacey, who earned $150,000 annually. When Ben Cohen resigned as Chief Executive Officer and Ben & Jerry's announced the search for a new CEO in 1995, the company ended the seven-to-one-ratio policy What was not stated was that they simply could not find a CEO experienced at running a billion dollar company who would accept that low of a salary. From Limits on Executive Pay: Easy to Set, Hard to Keep Whole Foods Market Inc. limits compensation for top executives to a multiple of the average Whole Foods worker's pay. The cap, which covers salaries and bonuses but not stock options, started at eight times average pay in the 1980s, and was raised to 14 times in the early 1990s as the company grew and went public. In 2006, as sales hit $5.6 billion and rivals tried to poach Whole Foods managers, the board of directors raised the cap to 19 times average pay, or $607,800. The increase was needed "to help ensure the retention of our key leadership," Chief Executive John Mackey wrote in a Nov. 2 message to employees. Mr. Mackey said every top executive, except him, had been repeatedly approached by search firms seeking to lure them to rivals. Whole Foods's move underscores the strong tug of rising executive pay -- even on companies like Whole Foods that try to buck the trend. The gap between CEOs and other workers has been growing since the late 1970s. The average big-company CEO made $11.6 million in 2005, or 411 times the typical U.S. worker, according to the Institute for Policy Studies, a progressive think tank cited by Whole Foods. The CEO pay figure includes salary, bonuses, stock grants and gains from stock options You may not like it, but that is the way it is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereswaldo Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 More like Ford management is buttering us up for contract talks. It's no secret that Ford wants more of our compensation to come from profit sharing and quality goals. To give us a small check now, with record earnings, it would jeopardize getting what they want to accomplish in September. Brilliant move. Actually its one of the last compensatory items that are relatively intact (except for exclusion of FMCC). We get no more raises, no more lump sum bonuses (that were in place of raises to save Ford $$), no Christmas $$,no more carry over of vacation time if so desired, no COLA (not even the $1.04/hr that was already earned b-4 deflation of 2008), not the 3% that went to our brothers VEBA.............So dont let them fool you into thinking they want MORE of our compensation to come from pro sharing. Its the only thing directly monetary that they havent changed radically. I do not consider this "buttering us up"... With UAW's statement that Ford only figured pro sharing to be +/- $3000... I consider it more a concession like the others items above. Ford makes nearly as much now, as when we got $8000 in pro sharing 10 yrs ago and Ford says we should have gotten $3000 ?? Yes like most , we should be thankful for what we do get. But as we go forward.......Keep your eye on the bigger picture.....GM has less debt than us and still was going to force 40% of Orion Assembly to take 50% pay cuts . These were up to 11yr seniority 1st tier GM-UAW employees. With I-UAW's blessings. So be thankful but beware...the concession train hasnt stopped yet. ACHers may be the ones to find out 1st hand soon enough. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1993Stang Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Actually its one of the last compensatory items that are relatively intact (except for exclusion of FMCC). We get no more raises, no more lump sum bonuses (that were in place of raises to save Ford $$), no Christmas $$,no more carry over of vacation time if so desired, no COLA (not even the $1.04/hr that was already earned b-4 deflation of 2008), not the 3% that went to our brothers VEBA.............So dont let them fool you into thinking they want MORE of our compensation to come from pro sharing. Its the only thing directly monetary that they havent changed radically. I do not consider this "buttering us up"... With UAW's statement that Ford only figured pro sharing to be +/- $3000... I consider it more a concession like the others items above. Ford makes nearly as much now, as when we got $8000 in pro sharing 10 yrs ago and Ford says we should have gotten $3000 ?? Yes like most , we should be thankful for what we do get. But as we go forward.......Keep your eye on the bigger picture.....GM has less debt than us and still was going to force 40% of Orion Assembly to take 50% pay cuts . These were up to 11yr seniority 1st tier GM-UAW employees. With I-UAW's blessings. So be thankful but beware...the concession train hasnt stopped yet. ACHers may be the ones to find out 1st hand soon enough. Good post Waldo, I love when people point out exactly what has been lost...another loss since 2006 47,600 hourly have taken some kind of buyout whether retired or off the books completely. Leaving the hourly with only 40K plus people.In March of 2008 a bonus of $1000.00 was given out to the remaining for reaching the companies goals of restructuring. So if the elimination of thousands of jobs during a crappy year yielded a bonus of $1000.00, I guess the question remains. Back in the day someone posted a profit of 7.2 billion (1999) and gave 88,000 people a avg profit of $8,000.00 - $10,000 each, what is the math about giving only 5K to a remaining 40,600 people with a profit over 6 billion in 2011?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ffamily Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Good post Waldo, I love when people point out exactly what has been lost...another loss since 2006 47,600 hourly have taken some kind of buyout whether retired or off the books completely. Leaving the hourly with only 40K plus people.In March of 2008 a bonus of $1000.00 was given out to the remaining for reaching the companies goals of restructuring. So if the elimination of thousands of jobs during a crappy year yielded a bonus of $1000.00, I guess the question remains. Back in the day someone posted a profit of 7.2 billion (1999) and gave 88,000 people a avg profit of $8,000.00 - $10,000 each, what is the math about giving only 5K to a remaining 40,600 people with a profit over 6 billion in 2011?? What are you talking about ? Out of the goodness of their hearts they're giving us five thousand dollars . Bob King said they only had to give us three thousand . You need to get with the new math Buddy . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lquidspine Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Good post Waldo, I love when people point out exactly what has been lost...another loss since 2006 47,600 hourly have taken some kind of buyout whether retired or off the books completely. Leaving the hourly with only 40K plus people.In March of 2008 a bonus of $1000.00 was given out to the remaining for reaching the companies goals of restructuring. So if the elimination of thousands of jobs during a crappy year yielded a bonus of $1000.00, I guess the question remains. Back in the day someone posted a profit of 7.2 billion (1999) and gave 88,000 people a avg profit of $8,000.00 - $10,000 each, what is the math about giving only 5K to a remaining 40,600 people with a profit over 6 billion in 2011?? Great post Waldo. Stang you are correct as well, but the difference really boils down to the loss of Ford Motor Credit from the formula. 5.4 billion profit in North America but how much of that was from FMCC ? That would be the reason why such a small average compared to 2000, well thats the only reason I can see anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereswaldo Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Good post Waldo, I love when people point out exactly what has been lost...another loss since 2006 47,600 hourly have taken some kind of buyout whether retired or off the books completely. Leaving the hourly with only 40K plus people.In March of 2008 a bonus of $1000.00 was given out to the remaining for reaching the companies goals of restructuring. So if the elimination of thousands of jobs during a crappy year yielded a bonus of $1000.00, I guess the question remains. Back in the day someone posted a profit of 7.2 billion (1999) and gave 88,000 people a avg profit of $8,000.00 - $10,000 each, what is the math about giving only 5K to a remaining 40,600 people with a profit over 6 billion in 2011?? When you read the stories over the next week , keep in mind the UAW will claim that they convinced Ford to up it to $5k. Methinks the union feared an uprising of sorts if they came out with $3k. Chairman Kouttalis at DTP , pointed out that a pro share less than $8,000 would not be thought of satisfactorily by many of his members. Ford will not be satisfied with present concessions. Permanent 2nd tier $14/hr is not enough for them. The pressure will be turned up and Bob King is already sitting on their side of the table. Good luck ........... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereswaldo Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 What are you talking about ? Out of the goodness of their hearts they're giving us five thousand dollars . Bob King said they only had to give us three thousand . You need to get with the new math Buddy . Which math are you talking about ? His mention of the $1,000 bonus in a crappy year in relation to this yr I think was more rhetorical. As for his math for 1999 vs. 2010(2011)...its interesting that in '99 Ford paid out +/- $704 million in pro share and in 2010... they are paying out +/- 203 million. Almost 3.5 times less payout now. Even as Ford does rebound now, our leaders conceded in 2007, so we wouldnt be able to rebound with our company. You'd have thought they would've made the formula stronger due to a smaller , leaner, more efficient workforce who conceded at the table big time but was willing to wait for the ultimate sign of life-----------PROFITS. But no...they allowed that to be weakened also. Shame,Bob, shame...... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lquidspine Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 When you read the stories over the next week , keep in mind the UAW will claim that they convinced Ford to up it to $5k. Methinks the union feared an uprising of sorts if they came out with $3k. Chairman Kouttalis at DTP , pointed out that a pro share less than $8,000 would not be thought of satisfactorily by many of his members. Ford will not be satisfied with present concessions. Permanent 2nd tier $14/hr is not enough for them. The pressure will be turned up and Bob King is already sitting on their side of the table. Good luck ........... Lol Waldo my Chairman did actually say the company wanted to give 3k, I would have thought by now he would know that I actually read the contract and I do not need to go to him for ever little question or gripe I may have. The only way we would not get what has been agreed upon in accordance of the Profit Sharing Plan in Volume III , would be if our leadership gave in. Even then I am fairly confident that would be an issue that would have to be ratified by the membership, maybe they remembered how well that went in October 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Great post Waldo. Stang you are correct as well, but the difference really boils down to the loss of Ford Motor Credit from the formula. 5.4 billion profit in North America but how much of that was from FMCC ? That would be the reason why such a small average compared to 2000, well thats the only reason I can see anyway. Spine, The Ford Credit portion of the formula was removed because, if you remember we ratified/settled in 2007 after GM and Chrysler. They both were selling their financial arms during negotiations’ which they did do. Because of this GM and Chrysler removed their credit arms from the profit sharing formula and for reasons of pattern the UAW followed with Ford. Since Ford did not sell the Ford Motor Credit like GM and Chrysler, Bob King has knew this was a large portion of our profit sharing and he was pushing Ford over the last 2 months into using Ford Credit into the formula. So, the 3,000 was correct for the per actual 2007 language (minus the Ford Credit equation.) The 5,000 was including credit which King pushed over the past 2 months. If you remember his messages in the press “the company must share in the good times”. Thank you Bob King God bless the UAW Grimshaw 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len_A Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Things didn't work out to well when when Billy was sitting in that chair. I have already stated, I think ALL top tier management in ALL US companies are overpaid. So are most (all?) US professional athletes. Things have not worked out well for other, much smaller US companies when they tried to limit top executive pay, From Wikipedia What was not stated was that they simply could not find a CEO experienced at running a billion dollar company who would accept that low of a salary. From Limits on Executive Pay: Easy to Set, Hard to Keep You may not like it, but that is the way it is. True and dead-on accurate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Wahrheit Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Great post Waldo. Stang you are correct as well, but the difference really boils down to the loss of Ford Motor Credit from the formula. 5.4 billion profit in North America but how much of that was from FMCC ? That would be the reason why such a small average compared to 2000, well thats the only reason I can see anyway. OK ENOUGH! I've had it will all you bickering bastards! Be happy you got what you got and if most of you guys would show up for work more and stay off medical than your check might be a little bigger. Ford gave you more than what they had to. So write a letter and thank FOMOCO. Go to work everyday and do your job. Support the UNION and be thankful for your job. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leo1737 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 There are always gonna be the employees who are gonna complain about $5,000 not being enough after all we sacrificed. It is still $5,000 more in my pocket. After years for small profit sharing or no profit sharing, it is a positive for me. It's great we are getting $5,000. Think about the retired workers that they took away 25000 in life insurance, kicked us into medicare where there is no vision.or dental coverage. Be happy with 5,000. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberdman Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I know I am probably going to regret posting here, but here goes. Reading this thread depresses me and goes to show me of how truely delusional many of you are. Ford has had a tough road, and the road will remain even tougher in the near future while the other automakers are improving and do not have he debt load that Ford is currently working to manage. That being said I would be so thankful if I was getting as a bonus what you are getting for profit sharing. First of all, probably 80% of salaried folks are what are called GSR, general salary roll and are graded SG1-SG8. Not one of those single people are managers. The next 20% or so are Leadership Level and earn LL6-LL1. I would guess 13% or so of those LL salarieds are middle managment and are LL6-LL5. VPs, Presidents and all the top tier executive, the rest of the 7% or so are LL4-LL1. Theoldwizard was pretty close in what he was talking about. Bonus and profit sharing are totally different. Salary folks get what they call Performance Bonuses and do not get profit sharing. Bonuses are only paid when the company does certain things in certain key areas and not just profittable. The bonus is performance based - meaning you have a small amount of influence on your bonus payment depending on how good your performance reviews were in the prior year. That gives you incentive to work harder for a little more money and to help the company improve. That being said though, usually on average you only get up to +/- 5% band performance influence. The key is is that there are minuses too. If you don't do so good that will take away from your bonus. Here is the key though. At the beginning of the year, March or so they set you a target amount of what your bonus will be. If the company does good AND is profittable you will earn your bonus. If either of the two aren't met or several other factors - you won't get it. That is that. You may find this hard to believe, but GSRs for 2010 had a bonus target amount of only $2500. LL6-LL5 target amount was a little higher that that. All upper level executives are negotiated differently with different formulas and are negotiated based on their own personal contracts. So, while many of you are complaing about your average $5000 that a lot of you are getting more than that, I'll be very happy with my bonus of $2500. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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