NickF1011 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 The MKX compares well enough with the SRX and RX350, but that isn't translating into sales. It is still an Edge with fancy make-up. The MKS is at least $5K overpriced, it's no nicer than the much cheaper Lacrosse, 300, or Genesis. Even the Taurus compares well enough against it. I recently test drove an MKS AWD, I wasn't impressed with anything outside of the seats. Keep in mind this is coming from a Ford fan. Are the MKX and MKS selling 10,000 units a month? No. Do they lead their respective classes in sales? No. Are they competitive within their respective segments? Absolutely. Just because they aren't #1 or #2 doesn't mean they are last and should be considered failures. The MKX outsells several other midsize luxury CUVs, as does the MKS outsell several other fullsize luxury sleds. You are comparing the sales of Lincolns to the exceptions in the market, not the average. Saying the MKX and MKS are failures based on their sales numbers (aka -- at least middle of the pack) is like saying the Fusion and Focus are failures because there are a couple vehicles in each of those segments that continue to outsell them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Asking dealers - who to the average customer is "Lincoln" - to step it up goes against the Auto Dealer business model - extract as much as you can while adding as little value as you can. I have said it before; this is an unsustainable business model. Let the fireworks begin! When will the "average guy" dealership experience change? My good friend who regularly tows a 4000lb trailer was recently looking at a local dealer '10 Explorer, listed as used - with 6k miles. Nice truck, ended up being not exactly what he wanted. The sales guy ran out and started telling him about the truck, and how much it can tow, it was apparent he didn't have a clue. Now, we knew that the class III hitch receiver on this generation V6 Explorer is only included with proper towing rear end gearing. 3.50 rear gears get the class II receiver. Of course, the sales guy did not know this. He told us that the hitch (this one was class II equipped) is randomly determined by what they have on hand when it is going down the line being assembled, and it should be able to tow just fine (not so, as Ford controls this at time of manufacture by matching the hitch receiver with the proper rear end gearing). My buddy said, he would be more interested if it had the V8 - 4.6 3V for towing 4k lbs. in the mountain west. The sales guy then said; “would you be interested in a new 2011 with a V8?” Duh! We explained that we knew the 2011 has a robust tow capacity, but it only comes with a 3.5 V6 - and he should know that too - but he didn't. Why do we have to deal with this? Can't it at least be a customer’s expectation that the sales person knows their product? My gosh - we are being asked to hand over the better part of $40k and to deal with this? Any more we like to just go walk around on Sunday where we can find what we want without being asked to consider something we don’t want. Why on earth would anybody try to sell something to a customer that they really don’t want (or in this case, Ford does not want you to sell because it is not properly equipped)? Doesn’t that ultimately leave a bad taste in the customer’s mouth? Is that not bad for business? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I'm curious about BMW's cost structure. I know that they're in talks with Daimler to share platform development................. Too often the 'must be unique' crowd ignores the advantage that shared platforms give companies in terms of feature integration. For instance, the next MKS will offer 7-Series level appointments power and space for $20-$30k less. If done well, this will cause headaches for BMW & MB, even as those on this board assume that BMW & MB are giving Ford headaches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 The MKS is at least $5K overpriced, it's no nicer than the much cheaper Lacrosse, 300, or Genesis. Bunkie, I didn't ask about the MK S, I asked about the EcoBoost MK S. There is NO Buick that comes close, except in your dreams, maybe. So, again, what is the EcoBoost MK S competition that makes it uncompetitive? How's that Genesis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 When will the "average guy" dealership experience change? This reminds me of people I know who are perpetually seeing bad or incompetent doctors. "And then he said I had............" "She gave me a _________, and told me to forget about it." etc. I really don't know why it is that you can't find competent salespeople or competent dealers, because they do exist. And just as they say with doctors: "What do you call the guy who graduates last in his class at med school?" "Doctor", so it goes with dealers. There will always be bad car dealers. Just as there are bad lawyers, bad doctors, bad plumbers, and bad tuba players. Here's a tip: Don't deal with dumb salesmen, and don't go to bad car dealers. When you find yourself talking to a stupid salesman, politely excuse yourself and leave. When you find yourself at a crooked car dealer, leave. It's that simple. Don't deal with them and then cry about it afterward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 This reminds me of people I know who are perpetually seeing bad or incompetent doctors. "And then he said I had............" "She gave me a _________, and told me to forget about it." etc. I really don't know why it is that you can't find competent salespeople or competent dealers, because they do exist. And just as they say with doctors: "What do you call the guy who graduates last in his class at med school?" "Doctor", so it goes with dealers. There will always be bad car dealers. Just as there are bad lawyers, bad doctors, bad plumbers, and bad tuba players. Here's a tip: Don't deal with dumb salesmen, and don't go to bad car dealers. When you find yourself talking to a stupid salesman, politely excuse yourself and leave. When you find yourself at a crooked car dealer, leave. It's that simple. Don't deal with them and then cry about it afterward. I don't deal with these guys, but when you go look at a truck they come running out. Again - answer the real question: Should it not be at least the minimum expectation of a customer spending that much money to have each and every sales guy that makes contact with a person to at least know enough about the product to explain it? Defending a bad business model is not going to make it better. This happens more than not. - Let the fireworks continue, but at least answer the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Should it not be at least the minimum expectation I answered the question: Incompetence is everywhere. Expect it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I don't deal with these guys, but when you go look at a truck they come running out. Again - answer the real question: Should it not be at least the minimum expectation of a customer spending that much money to have each and every sales guy that makes contact with a person to at least know enough about the product to explain it? Defending a bad business model is not going to make it better. This happens more than not. - Let the fireworks continue, but at least answer the question. Should the customer expect the salesperson to know what he/she is talking about? Of course. That doesn't mean that's what you're going to get though. People also expect to get to work without getting a flat tire, but it happens sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 And what about wrong limb amputations? Caveat emptor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I answered the question: Incompetence is everywhere. Expect it. Just seems like 80% of car salesmen are incompetent vs. say 10-15% of doctors...plus the weeding out process for doctors is far better before you even have to deal with them... Not to mention there seems to be a huge turnover in car salesmen vs other jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I answered the question: Incompetence is everywhere. Expect it. So, your answer is no, a customer is not entitled to a technically correct explanation of how a vehicle is equipped to perform safely, and if you don’t do every detail of your own research, then you should expect a product that does not meet your needs, even to the point where it is not considered safe (class II vs class III). So, the question begs: what is the purpose of a car salesman? New question to answer… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 So, your answer is no, a customer is not entitled Caveat emptor. What you're 'entitled' to and what you get are two different things, always have been, always will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Not to mention there seems to be a huge turnover in car salesmen vs other jobs. There's a huge turnover rate in the sales force pretty much regardless of the industry. Just the nature of sales jobs. Having done it myself for awhile (and predictably not for long), I can tell you it's pretty easy to get burned out or bored with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Caveat emptor. What you're 'entitled' to and what you get are two different things, always have been, always will be. Richard, I know this is your show...so resistance is futile. But can't you see that defending bad business is complacent, and archaic in thinking. Business has to re-invent itself all the time, all businesses...Maybe it time for the Auto Dealership business to think about re-inventing itself. And - again, if they can't get someone in the right truck - what is the purpose...? Oh I think I answered that in my first post: Extract as much as you can from the customer without adding any value. Time to re-invent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) defending bad business It's like this: Say you're thinking about opening up a tanning salon in beautiful downtown Kandahar. If I told you that was a bad idea, would I be 'defending' the status quo? No. Caveat emptor. ----- If you want to go out and waste your life trying to fundamentally change a deeply entrenched multibillion dollar industry that employs hundreds of thousands of people in tens of thousands of locations, go right ahead. Just don't hound me because I'm not signing up for the revolution. Edited February 8, 2011 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 And what about wrong limb amputations? what DOES that remind me of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) I don't deal with these guys, but when you go look at a truck they come running out. Again - answer the real question: Should it not be at least the minimum expectation of a customer spending that much money to have each and every sales guy that makes contact with a person to at least know enough about the product to explain it? Defending a bad business model is not going to make it better. This happens more than not. - Let the fireworks continue, but at least answer the question. its real simple really....you get what you pay for...and dealers DONT pay good enough money sometimes to retain good sales people....and the markup between Retail and invoice is constantly becoming smaller, meaning commission sales people ultimately make less money...would you work for close to minimum wage and make the effort expected from a potenntial customer???? Edited February 8, 2011 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Richard, I know this is your show...so resistance is futile. But can't you see that defending bad business is complacent, and archaic in thinking. Business has to re-invent itself all the time, all businesses...Maybe it time for the Auto Dealership business to think about re-inventing itself. And - again, if they can't get someone in the right truck - what is the purpose...? Oh I think I answered that in my first post: Extract as much as you can from the customer without adding any value. Time to re-invent! I always seem to answer this statement with the same of my own...Walk in and pay retail then, you'll be treated like royalty ( dependent on the car of course, theres $400 profit in a Fiesta and then ford expects the sales people to absolutely jump through hoops on the delivery ) So, will we ever become an MSRP paying society??? so, sword, meet your double edge.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Walk in and pay retail game, set, match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 game, set, match. As if paying more will instantly inform the clueless, untrained, parking lot sales guy that Class III hitch receivers are only found on vehicles equipped with proper drive trains. These people represent a local business (the dealer) as well as Ford or other mfg. to a potential customer, and they don't know their job. Inexcusable! Deeply entrenched, yes, but still inexcusable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 As if paying more You pay retail, you buy 'off the rack', you get your class 3 hitch in 6-8 weeks, FOB. Maybe. With the 2011 Explorer, more like 3 months or more. You want to deal that way, do so. You can do that right now. ----- But if you want to negotiate, and you want to buy off the lot, caveat emptor, caveat emptor, caveat emptor. You can't assume that the person you're talking to knows anything other than the approximate difference between his backside and a nearby hole in the ground. Do otherwise at your own risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 As if paying more will instantly inform the clueless, untrained, parking lot sales guy that Class III hitch receivers are only found on vehicles equipped with proper drive trains. These people represent a local business (the dealer) as well as Ford or other mfg. to a potential customer, and they don't know their job. Inexcusable! Deeply entrenched, yes, but still inexcusable. I invite you to join a sales force making close to minimum wage and justify the 30 odd written tests you are expected to take yearly, appese stringent customer CSI and attempt to memorize Fiesta, Focus, Fusion, Taurus Crown Vic, Ranger, 26 page F-150 ordering guide, Superduty , Transit Connect and Econoline along with upfit ordering guides. Now, what exactly was the Tongue weight in the trailer you are expecting to tow, how much do your passengers and their luggage weigh, and what type of brakes does your trailer have.....bottom line, the skilset is directly reflective of ones ability to make a living good enough to stay in the business....then agin i could always work for Caltrans and make more money, have retirement and a pension along with a 401k with emplyee participation....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 You pay retail, you buy 'off the rack', you get your class 3 hitch in 6-8 weeks, FOB. Maybe. With the 2011 Explorer, more like 3 months or more. You want to deal that way, do so. You can do that right now. ----- But if you want to negotiate, and you want to buy off the lot, caveat emptor, caveat emptor, caveat emptor. You can't assume that the person you're talking to knows anything other than the approximate difference between his backside and a nearby hole in the ground. Do otherwise at your own risk. Now, what I would pay to watch is someone using these words in a meeting with Alan Mulally: But Alan, what you're 'entitled' to and what you get are two different things, always have been, always will be. But Alan, I answered the question: Incompetence is everywhere. Expect it. But Alan, if you want to go out and waste your life trying to fundamentally change a deeply entrenched multibillion dollar industry that employs hundreds of thousands of people in tens of thousands of locations, go right ahead. Just don't hound me because I'm not signing up for the revolution. Love to be a fly on the wall in that room! Yes, all businesses must re-invent themselves and do it again and again and again… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Now, what I would pay to watch is someone using these words in a meeting with Alan Mulally: You're not Alan Mulally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Now, what I would pay to watch is someone using these words in a meeting with Alan Mulally: But Alan, what you're 'entitled' to and what you get are two different things, always have been, always will be. But Alan, I answered the question: Incompetence is everywhere. Expect it. But Alan, if you want to go out and waste your life trying to fundamentally change a deeply entrenched multibillion dollar industry that employs hundreds of thousands of people in tens of thousands of locations, go right ahead. Just don't hound me because I'm not signing up for the revolution. Love to be a fly on the wall in that room! Yes, all businesses must re-invent themselves and do it again and again and again… heres a side note...think the dealers negotiate with ford on an individual basis for what they pay for their inventory?.....sorry Kev, but the practice will be here to stay as long as their is room for negotiation....and believe me, being able to get on the internet and find out approx Dealer cost on items I hold responsible for an awful lot of the consumer "entitlement: we are expected to tolerate...weird business for sure, but exceedingly educational when it comes to evaluating Human psyche......as for the incompetance everywhere comment...yes it is...lets put in in Sports terms...think the bKnicks can get Carmelo Anthony for 500k a season?....you have to pay for "talent"...if you dont they go elsewhere...and with the ever decreasing margins of which sales people work with, I beleive the "talent pool" will continuously dry up....so next time you buy a car, just pay MSRP and know you could be part of a revolution that leads to better sales personnel and practices.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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