silvrsvt Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 The Zephyr (MKZ) was an emergency action when the RWD plan fell apart. Panic timing and a shrinking budget account for the lack of differentialtion from the Fusion. So they decided to spend even more money for a mild refresh a year after they launched the Zephyr and renamed it to the MKZ? That was a bout stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 So they decided to spend even more money for a mild refresh a year after they launched the Zephyr and renamed it to the MKZ? That was a bout stupid. Without the Zephyr the Lincoln dealers would have only had one car to sell - the TC. The LS and Aviator had already been given the death sentence, so they rushed out the Zephyr and the Mark LT to fill the gap. It was more to support the dealers than to support Ford. Without the Zephyr and Mark LT Lincoln would have been left with just the TC and Navigator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Without the Zephyr the Lincoln dealers would have only had one car to sell - the TC. The LS and Aviator had already been given the death sentence, so they rushed out the Zephyr and the Mark LT to fill the gap. It was more to support the dealers than to support Ford. Without the Zephyr and Mark LT Lincoln would have been left with just the TC and Navigator. That's absolutely correct. Even if management had given the program team more money, there was simply no time to develop a higher level of differentiation. Getting into the market as quickly as possible to shore up the dealers was key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 That's absolutely correct. Even if management had given the program team more money, there was simply no time to develop a higher level of differentiation. Getting into the market as quickly as possible to shore up the dealers was key. In hindsight it probably would have been better to just starve the dealers then so we wouldn't need to be worrying about dealer consolidation now. All of the weaker franchises would be gone by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 In hindsight it probably would have been better to just starve the dealers then so we wouldn't need to be worrying about dealer consolidation now. All of the weaker franchises would be gone by now. Most still had Mercury to prop them up. This was also pre-mulally and Ford had not yet decided that it needed fewer dealers. But I agree - they should have started earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 About the only hard points I would say would need to be changed would be in the greenhouse. So a Lincoln coupe wouldn't look like a carbon copy of a G37 or CTS coupe. So? Isn't that kind of the point? Offer something different, Lincoln! A more svelt, taut skin over the Mustang's current body would look pretty damn good in my opinion. And well, we have no idea where the next gen Mustang will be starting from, so it could be even easier then to develop a different body using the same hard points at that time. You don't get it. the cool leaning forward grille design is integrated into the frontal structure of the mustang. It would look too funky to try to drape a lincoln front end over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) the cool leaning forward grille design is integrated into the frontal structure of the mustang. I really doubt that. If it is, D2C is entirely over-engineered. And once again, we're talking about the next generation Mustang, which I sure as heck hope gets ride of the upright retro grille already. Obviously Ford wouldn't bother to drape a Lincoln skin over a Mustang that is only going to be in production for another couple of years. Edited June 17, 2011 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 Without the Zephyr the Lincoln dealers would have only had one car to sell - the TC. I'm not arguing that point, I'm arguing the point that Ford spent even more money on the Zephyr "updating" it into a MKZ...thats where my about stupid comment came from. They would have been better off just slapping the MKZ badges on it instead...just to save $$$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) I really doubt that. If it is, D2C is entirely over-engineered. And once again, we're talking about the next generation Mustang, which I sure as heck hope gets ride of the upright retro grille already. Obviously Ford wouldn't bother to drape a Lincoln skin over a Mustang that is only going to be in production for another couple of years. I agree, the there is no real changes between the 05 mustang and the 09 redesign when it come to cooling setup 2011 2005 Edited June 17, 2011 by silvrsvt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I'm not arguing that point, I'm arguing the point that Ford spent even more money on the Zephyr "updating" it into a MKZ...thats where my about stupid comment came from. They would have been better off just slapping the MKZ badges on it instead...just to save $$$$ Who knows if it was worth the money or not. I'm sure it was supposed to be part of the "new" Lincoln stable (remember this was pre-mulally). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I'm not arguing that point, I'm arguing the point that Ford spent even more money on the Zephyr "updating" it into a MKZ...thats where my about stupid comment came from. They would have been better off just slapping the MKZ badges on it instead...just to save $$$$ Um, no. One key ingredient was the fact that he 3.5l V6 was not available at Zephyr Job 1, so the Zephyr had to make do with the 3.0l. To repeat, it was all about timing, and the update occurred when there was time to make the changes. The incremental investment of this double move wasn't such a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) I think at this point we should agree to disagree. Even building on the same platform does not mean success. With its anemic volumes, the MKT is most certainly a losing program, so that's not necessarily a good comparison. The initial investment of the MKT was probably close to $250-300 million (and maybe more), and the volumes will never pay back that investment. A Lincoln coupe off of a new Mustang would likely have similar investment and similar volumes; probably not a winner. Unless, like I said, Lincoln's man...agement deems it imperitive to have an image or performance vehicle as one of their methods to "shout" to the consumers that Lincoln is still in business when most people think the brand irrelevant. As I said in a previous post, I can pretty much guarantee you that this has been scoped out inside Ford; all they have to do is keep brushing up the previous studies for current conditions. These studies have been going on for around 10 years when S197 was in development, so I'm sure the planners/engineers know pretty much what it would take. I think the MKT's dismal sales performance can be laid directly at the feet of the moron that signed off on the styling...whilst im all fo pushing envelopes theres a line...it was crossed...hell....it was ignored.....overwraught grill, the kickup is way overdone and the rear end...in the fleash it looks like a caricature....and obviously Im not the only one that thinks so...leads me to this sweeper....its easier to sell a good looking POS, than a shitty looking ringer......Hyundai 101..... Edited June 17, 2011 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03 LS Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I think the MKT's dismal sales performance can be laid directly at the feet of the moron that signed off on the styling...whilst im all fo pushing envelopes theres a line...it was crossed...hell....it was ignored.....overwraught grill, the kickup is way overdone and the rear end...in the fleash it looks like a caricature....and obviously Im not the only one that thinks so...leads me to this sweeper....its easier to sell a good looking POS, than a shitty looking ringer......Hyundai 101..... He ... went back ... to Volvo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 The MKT doesn't have dismal sales for it's class. How many times does that have to be said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 The MKT doesn't have dismal sales for it's class. How many times does that have to be said? well, people arent exactly beating down the doors to obtain them....and sure would be a lot better if it didnt look like......THAT....funny, car actually looked better in photos than in the flesh, usually its the other way around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I don't agree. I think it looks much better in person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) Yes, as I mentioned earlier, Lincoln was looking for a donor platform because D2 was being radically altered. But the detailed study conclusion was that D2c wouldn't work, so Lincoln kept going on their merry way to develop what was essentially an all new platform. At that point, it was easy for some observers to see that that plan was ultimately not going to work. It was doomed because the investment wasn't affordable, even with 2-3 vehicles off the platform, and there was no way any program could make money in the high-cost and inefficient Wixom plant. The Zephyr (MKZ) was an emergency action when the RWD plan fell apart. Panic timing and a shrinking budget account for the lack of differentiation from the Fusion. Thanks Austin for your informative posts, I was wondering about your past suggestions about FoA and FNA sharing on Falcon and Mustang. previously, you've touched on the costs and development work being heavily focused on the front of the cars, engine bay layout, power trains, suspension and steering - all engineered and designed to pass crash testing. Hmm, I was thinking this is where Ford could make the most progress with spreading development costs across Falcon, Territory and Mustang. If we considered all things forward of the B pillar to be shared engineering and the derivatives that cover three different floor pans and top hats, I think we would have a very workable plan and provide sufficient vehicle latitude to cover quite a few contingencies. While a Mustang coupe may not be entirely suitable for Lincoln, it is also possible that a Falcon/Mustang based collaboration as either 4-door sedan or even a 2-door sedan may prove more effective. And I agree entirely that a successful Ford originator in no way guarantees a successful Lincoln product but you can't ever have the latter with out a world class former, the base platform has to have enough high series scope to work otherwise luxury buyers see right through it and you may as well be selling them an Impala..... Whatever happens, I really hope Ford finds a way for the next gen Falcon and territory to survive alongside Mustang, there must be a way of having our cake and eating it too with having a $40,000-$60,000 price point in Australia combined with the anticipated mustang and Lincoln price points in North America, surely something is possible... Edited June 17, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StangBang Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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