lquidspine Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Just incase anyone was interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louie Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Spine The 2007 agreement was concessionary including entry level, veba, etc. In return we got billions in investment (UAW facilities). The company provided the investment over and above the original location specific agreement (OHAP still waiting). So the company invested and the VEBA started in 2010 and LTSs will become Entry Level within the next few months. Among other things the agreement has been followed. At this point, with the investments kept here in America and not in Canada or Mexico as agreed the 20% entry level is part of the investment guarantee and will be implemented. When you attend this Entry Level meeting, cover the following: 1) Entry Level is a part of our Labor Wage figure to keep investing in American plants. What is the plan to keep our wages in the competitive range? 2) If you are going to make an argument for equal pay, something must be deleted from our labor rates. What would that be? 3) To demand something, there must be an alternative plan to implement. What is the plan? 4) If there is no alternative plan then how can the union take your position? 5) Many dissident groups such as this one never have a resolution, just platforms that cannot be attained because of the lack of a good resolution. Have these dissident groups met to fix problems with real problem solving or just get together and complain finger point and never resolve anything? 6) Identify the path back to the $70 per hour rate. Now within your group, work down to $55 per hour as to spur huge investments, save jobs and keep our rate of pay and benefits in UAW facilities…………….. Now I ask you to take the task of the UAW and the huge responsibility of protecting 40,000 jobs and families. Failure to do so and to sit on the $70 per hour rate will result in investments going to Canada and Mexico……. Only a border away in either location.I can take a guess right now that your group will not have an answer for any of the 6 topics. Although this dissident group has identified a problem with entry level, and one I am sure the UAW could not work around. There is a difference between Leaders. Real Leaders get things done and protect the best interest of all involved. The dissident group (with no plan) if in a leadership position would have our investments and jobs going to Canada and Mexico and our numbers easily could have fallen to 25,000 to 30,000 members and falling without being proactive.Please if going to this meeting…………… Bring a resolution back to keep our rates at $55 per hour without entry level............................... If nothing can be agreed to the $55 per hour rate then the UAW did what they had to do……. Again my guess is this group will be unable achieve this monumental task and responsibility 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len_A Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 $28 an hour to build parts,that is not good business sense..................... Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back-Glass-Ass Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) these types of posts gnaw at me. First of all, my background is 19 years seniority, all at Assembly (wixom, AAI, DTP) Trim, Chasis, and Chasis. Everyone knows in one way or another how easy some of our brothers and sisters had it at some of the parts plants, maybe not all of the jobs there were gravy but most were compared to Assembly work. The days of making 28 bucks an hour doing those jobs is over. The bottom line is that if some fella from another county will do it for minimum wage then there is no way on gods green earth that Ford will continue paying us to do it. It just does not make sense. You can not run a business and be competitive like that. That being said, the UAW and Ford have made leaps and bounds leveling the competitive edge that imports had on us, and we have seen results in profits that Ford has been posting. I think it is time that we get something back. Something. Not the kitchen sink, but something tangible. Don't throw some crap 5k signing bonus at me, give me something that can be built upon, a 3-5 % raise would be nice. Those kids at Burger King and McDonalds have been catching up to my pay rate these last 8 years and it would be nice to widen the gap a bit. I mean, they flip burgers and we are hooking up your Air Bags... Just my opinion, I could be wrong. Edited July 22, 2011 by Back-Glass-Ass 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightsout Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Tier One employees could take a pay cut. Why does all of the sacrifice have to on the part of the entry level workers? It's really hard to make it on 14.00. You guys could spare 3.00 and hour and bring us up to 17.00 or 18.00 an hour- Brother. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdw1 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Tier One employees could take a pay cut. Why does all of the sacrifice have to on the part of the entry level workers? It's really hard to make it on 14.00. You guys could spare 3.00 and hour and bring us up to 17.00 or 18.00 an hour- Brother. If memory serves me correctly, we did take a pay cut in the form of COLA, Performance Bonus, & Christmas Bonus. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordguy61mi Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 It seems to me that something has to be done to make things more equal between 1st and 2nd tier workers. If not, then our future retirement will be in jeopardy. The incentive for 2nd tier to give up retiree benefits in the future for increased pay/benefits for themselves while still working is too great. I believe we're going to fuck ourselves if we don't give them an incentive NOT to screw us to better themselves and their families. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 If memory serves me correctly, we did take a pay cut in the form of COLA, Performance Bonus, & Christmas Bonus. And don't forget our loss of break time, time and half after 8 hours, day after Easter, increase in co-pay for doctor's visits, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordd Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Just incase anyone was interested. Whoever attends this please post what solutions they came up with. My guess is it will just be alot bitching and moaning and go a little something like this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik Edited July 22, 2011 by fordd 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kel25 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Whoever attends this please post what solutions they came up with. My guess is it will just be alot bitching and moaning and go a little something like this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik That is exactly what is going to sound like !!! LOL!!! I love that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdw1 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Spring, you are correct. I was only listing "pay" lost not benefits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightsout Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 We didn't see any of the stuff you guys "gave up." It went straight to Ford's bottom line. The thing is that companies have successful broken the union. As soon as everyone though it would be a good idea to save money on the backs of future workers. Now its us vs. you. How can we be as one? You want to keep what you have and we want to get what you have. RIP UAW 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usedtobe898 Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 We didn't see any of the stuff you guys "gave up." It went straight to Ford's bottom line. The thing is that companies have successful broken the union. As soon as everyone though it would be a good idea to save money on the backs of future workers. Now its us vs. you. How can we be as one? You want to keep what you have and we want to get what you have. RIP UAW you said it right there but you forgot to say, thanks alot joel great job on that last contract-----really glad i voted for you again so you can fuck me again,and again 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lquidspine Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Spine The 2007 agreement was concessionary including entry level, veba, etc. In return we got billions in investment (UAW facilities). The company provided the investment over and above the original location specific agreement (OHAP still waiting). So the company invested and the VEBA started in 2010 and LTSs will become Entry Level within the next few months. Among other things the agreement has been followed. At this point, with the investments kept here in America and not in Canada or Mexico as agreed the 20% entry level is part of the investment guarantee and will be implemented. When you attend this Entry Level meeting, cover the following: 1) Entry Level is a part of our Labor Wage figure to keep investing in American plants. What is the plan to keep our wages in the competitive range? 2) If you are going to make an argument for equal pay, something must be deleted from our labor rates. What would that be? 3) To demand something, there must be an alternative plan to implement. What is the plan? 4) If there is no alternative plan then how can the union take your position? 5) Many dissident groups such as this one never have a resolution, just platforms that cannot be attained because of the lack of a good resolution. Have these dissident groups met to fix problems with real problem solving or just get together and complain finger point and never resolve anything? 6) Identify the path back to the $70 per hour rate. Now within your group, work down to $55 per hour as to spur huge investments, save jobs and keep our rate of pay and benefits in UAW facilities…………….. Now I ask you to take the task of the UAW and the huge responsibility of protecting 40,000 jobs and families. Failure to do so and to sit on the $70 per hour rate will result in investments going to Canada and Mexico……. Only a border away in either location.I can take a guess right now that your group will not have an answer for any of the 6 topics. Although this dissident group has identified a problem with entry level, and one I am sure the UAW could not work around. There is a difference between Leaders. Real Leaders get things done and protect the best interest of all involved. The dissident group (with no plan) if in a leadership position would have our investments and jobs going to Canada and Mexico and our numbers easily could have fallen to 25,000 to 30,000 members and falling without being proactive.Please if going to this meeting…………… Bring a resolution back to keep our rates at $55 per hour without entry level............................... If nothing can be agreed to the $55 per hour rate then the UAW did what they had to do……. Again my guess is this group will be unable achieve this monumental task and responsibility While entry level got us product placment in 2007, yours and a few other post bring up good arguments louie. I am not even suggesting that all associated against 2nd tier have all the answers, they may have none. I posted this for those that would be interested to see what they have to say and people can make up their own minds if they wish to attend or not. Will I be going ? no I have to work saturdays I guess what worries me is right now is we are in a competitive range without hiring one tier two employee, so what is gonna happen when they actually hire many of they people the company has been allowed to string along for so many years ? What will happen to that gap once they actually have to pay these people some benefits they currently do not have too since they are tagged LTS, eventually they will need to hire these people and the rates they have gotten away with since 2007 will go up slightly. Will that outprice us again ? I do not have the answers, I understand why UAW leadership took the steps they took. The questions now would be how do we earn gains for the future workers without killing the companie and ourselves. This really is a bigger issue than just automotive. Just in the posts here and they come everyday on these boards with the upcoming contract, traditional workers want their COLA back, they want their breaks back their Christmas bonus and so on and so on. Meanwhile our future workers , our family members or our friends will suffer in the long run. Eventually it will effect traditional works on future contracts, but like i said I do not have the answers but there can be no good resolution without a discussion. For once we need to look further than 3 or four years down the road and try to do the best we can for the next generation of auto workers, current workers had that luxury of having people fight for what we have today. Why should future employees not be given the same chances. Go or don't go it does not matter to me, those that want to go and at least hear what some of these people have to say find out for yourselves the information has been provided. Edited July 23, 2011 by lquidspine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Empire Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Spine The 2007 agreement was concessionary including entry level, veba, etc. In return we got billions in investment (UAW facilities). The company provided the investment over and above the original location specific agreement (OHAP still waiting). So the company invested and the VEBA started in 2010 and LTSs will become Entry Level within the next few months. Among other things the agreement has been followed. At this point, with the investments kept here in America and not in Canada or Mexico as agreed the 20% entry level is part of the investment guarantee and will be implemented. When you attend this Entry Level meeting, cover the following: 1) Entry Level is a part of our Labor Wage figure to keep investing in American plants. What is the plan to keep our wages in the competitive range? 2) If you are going to make an argument for equal pay, something must be deleted from our labor rates. What would that be? 3) To demand something, there must be an alternative plan to implement. What is the plan? 4) If there is no alternative plan then how can the union take your position? 5) Many dissident groups such as this one never have a resolution, just platforms that cannot be attained because of the lack of a good resolution. Have these dissident groups met to fix problems with real problem solving or just get together and complain finger point and never resolve anything? 6) Identify the path back to the $70 per hour rate. Now within your group, work down to $55 per hour as to spur huge investments, save jobs and keep our rate of pay and benefits in UAW facilities…………….. Now I ask you to take the task of the UAW and the huge responsibility of protecting 40,000 jobs and families. Failure to do so and to sit on the $70 per hour rate will result in investments going to Canada and Mexico……. Only a border away in either location.I can take a guess right now that your group will not have an answer for any of the 6 topics. Although this dissident group has identified a problem with entry level, and one I am sure the UAW could not work around. There is a difference between Leaders. Real Leaders get things done and protect the best interest of all involved. The dissident group (with no plan) if in a leadership position would have our investments and jobs going to Canada and Mexico and our numbers easily could have fallen to 25,000 to 30,000 members and falling without being proactive.Please if going to this meeting…………… Bring a resolution back to keep our rates at $55 per hour without entry level............................... If nothing can be agreed to the $55 per hour rate then the UAW did what they had to do……. Again my guess is this group will be unable achieve this monumental task and responsibility good post The investments gained in 2007 were well negotiated and yes it was concessionary. We all benefited with solid job security, something that was quite dire before the 2007 agreement. I do agree if there was a way to keep our rates competitive without entry level one of these "labor groups" would have suggested it. These groups fall way short in offering an alternate plan and would have us on the path to losing jobs to mexico and canada. Job Security would be hard to find. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lquidspine Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 good post The investments gained in 2007 were well negotiated and yes it was concessionary. We all benefited with solid job security, something that was quite dire before the 2007 agreement. I do agree if there was a way to keep our rates competitive without entry level one of these "labor groups" would have suggested it. These groups fall way short in offering an alternate plan and would have us on the path to losing jobs to mexico and canada. Job Security would be hard to find. Again Ford has not hired one entry level employee so please xplain to me how this has helped the companies ? The labor rate was brought down to current levels when VEBA took over and COLA was eliminated, nothing more nothing less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Empire Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Again Ford has not hired one entry level employee so please xplain to me how this has helped the companies ? The labor rate was brought down to current levels when VEBA took over and COLA was eliminated, nothing more nothing less. Current labor rates for product and investments in USA/UAW facilities Chrysler $51 per hour - Higher entry level utilization than Ford entry level GM $55 per hour - Higher entry level utilization than Ford entry level but less than Chrysler Ford $58 per hour - Entry Level just under 100 members, LTS negotiated in 2007 around 800. Dropped our labor rates substantially from the 2007 $70 per hour rate as well as the VEBA and COLA. Transition ALL LTS to entry level plus fill the CAP 3rd shift ( 1,100 people), LAP shortages with 3 shifts (1,200 people), MAP 3rd shift (manning shortfall 200 people). Once the 2007 investment windfall takes full effect these entry level needs will be hired ------> 2,500 new jobs>>>>>> Lowering our rates (closer to GM and Chrysler) again to get even more product in our under utilized Engine, Transmission and Stamping plants with another 4 year commitment of assembly cycle plans. I am thoroughly impressed with the vision of the UAW and the ultimate success in job security for our entire UAW-Ford membership in the worst economic conditions this country has ever seen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lquidspine Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 Current labor rates for product and investments in USA/UAW facilities Chrysler $51 per hour - Higher entry level utilization than Ford entry level GM $55 per hour - Higher entry level utilization than Ford entry level but less than Chrysler Ford $58 per hour - Entry Level just under 100 members, LTS negotiated in 2007 around 800. Dropped our labor rates substantially from the 2007 $70 per hour rate as well as the VEBA and COLA. Transition ALL LTS to entry level plus fill the CAP 3rd shift ( 1,100 people), LAP shortages with 3 shifts (1,200 people), MAP 3rd shift (manning shortfall 200 people). Once the 2007 investment windfall takes full effect these entry level needs will be hired ------> 2,500 new jobs>>>>>> Lowering our rates (closer to GM and Chrysler) again to get even more product in our under utilized Engine, Transmission and Stamping plants with another 4 year commitment of assembly cycle plans. I am thoroughly impressed with the vision of the UAW and the ultimate success in job security for our entire UAW-Ford membership in the worst economic conditions this country has ever seen. Please excuse me I forgot CAP announced they where going to hire some entry level last year, so the 100 or so figure seems about right. Your last staement is right on as well. I still fail to understand how hiring entry level workers lowers the rate when they are not droping any traditional workers at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uawfactoryrat Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Tier One employees could take a pay cut. Why does all of the sacrifice have to on the part of the entry level workers? It's really hard to make it on 14.00. You guys could spare 3.00 and hour and bring us up to 17.00 or 18.00 an hour- Brother. The big difference is I have spent 20 years working here at ford, and hired in at full wage you knew what you were going to get and took the job. Stop your whining. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tapper Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I still fail to understand how hiring entry level workers lowers the rate when they are not droping any traditional workers at the same time. First off, its all on averages: (examples used are rounded numbers, and arnt actual numbers, just being used as an example) example A: If tier 1 worker makes $29.00hr wage + cost of healthcare + pension payments = $58.00 per hour example B: If tier 2 woker makes $15.51hr wage + cost of 80/20 healthcare plan (tier 2 has a different plan) + 401(k) contribution ((no pension for tier 2 employees)) = $28.00 per hour A + B / 2 = per hour cost. $58 + $28 = $86 / 2 = $43 Simple to figure out. As for why do we have tier 2? Its easy, those in Kentucky, Tennessee, Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama & Mississippi have all agreed to do the same type work we do for half the wage and benefits. Its called the UAW sat on its butt in the 80's and didnt put a real effort to organizing the transplants. The UAW as did the Big 3 thought those companies wouldnt last as long as they have (go to the wayside like VW did in Pennsylvania). When the UAW saw that the transplants were here to stay, it was too late as the Japs had made wages and benefits so close to those of UAW represented workers, the transplant workers didnt feel the need for the UAW. Also, when you take the folks from the mountains and fields, pay them $14 - $18hr to work in a factory when they have grown up generation after generation of farming and coal mining, they dont want to rock the boat to try to have UAW representation. they are the first generation of their bloodlines to move out of the shack-trailors and into real homes, send their kids to decent schools/colleges and get real health care as opposed to a charity clinic that shows up once a month at the local fire department. Also, the towns and cities where these plants are located now have streets lined with gold, where they have never been able to have street lights, actual asphalt, businesses popping up. I undestand why politicians are they way they are about the jap plants (although I theorectically disagree) Tapper 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lquidspine Posted July 24, 2011 Author Share Posted July 24, 2011 First off, its all on averages: (examples used are rounded numbers, and arnt actual numbers, just being used as an example) example A: If tier 1 worker makes $29.00hr wage + cost of healthcare + pension payments = $58.00 per hour example B: If tier 2 woker makes $15.51hr wage + cost of 80/20 healthcare plan (tier 2 has a different plan) + 401(k) contribution ((no pension for tier 2 employees)) = $28.00 per hour A + B / 2 = per hour cost. $58 + $28 = $86 / 2 = $43 Simple to figure out. As for why do we have tier 2? Its easy, those in Kentucky, Tennessee, Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama & Mississippi have all agreed to do the same type work we do for half the wage and benefits. Its called the UAW sat on its butt in the 80's and didnt put a real effort to organizing the transplants. The UAW as did the Big 3 thought those companies wouldnt last as long as they have (go to the wayside like VW did in Pennsylvania). When the UAW saw that the transplants were here to stay, it was too late as the Japs had made wages and benefits so close to those of UAW represented workers, the transplant workers didnt feel the need for the UAW. Also, when you take the folks from the mountains and fields, pay them $14 - $18hr to work in a factory when they have grown up generation after generation of farming and coal mining, they dont want to rock the boat to try to have UAW representation. they are the first generation of their bloodlines to move out of the shack-trailors and into real homes, send their kids to decent schools/colleges and get real health care as opposed to a charity clinic that shows up once a month at the local fire department. Also, the towns and cities where these plants are located now have streets lined with gold, where they have never been able to have street lights, actual asphalt, businesses popping up. I undestand why politicians are they way they are about the jap plants (although I theorectically disagree) Tapper Look bro I am done argueing for arguments sake, the only reason we are currently competative is because VEBA took over retiree health care plain and simple. Entry level will help in the future but right now it has not saved the company shit. VEBA and abuse of LTS employees currently have us within range of none unionized atuomakers, you can argue all you want but with around 100 entry level employees currently you will not convince me that entry level has saved the company much money. From 2007 *link* Need more ? *link* Do I really need to post more ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Empire Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Look bro I am done argueing for arguments sake, the only reason we are currently competative is because VEBA took over retiree health care plain and simple. Entry level will help in the future but right now it has not saved the company shit. VEBA and abuse of LTS employees currently have us within range of none unionized atuomakers, you can argue all you want but with around 100 entry level employees currently you will not convince me that entry level has saved the company much money. From 2007 *link* Need more ? *link* Do I really need to post more ? I really dont understand why you continue to ignore the fact that the higher the entry level the lower out labor rates to gain job security and the fact we have nearly 3,000 entry level waged members now. As stated below we are pattern with GM and Chrysler on hourly rate of pay and health benefits yet their labor rates are much lower than ours. (not healthy) Why???? Because they are in the hiring mode bringing shifts of entry level on and blowing us out of the water on wages and investment. Ford is high on labor rates..... $58 per hour is troublesome, yes better than $70 per hour but I am hopeful the IUAW will negotiate more product and investments based on hiring more entry level to get us competitive with GM and Chrysler. An impossible task to even hit 20%.( A hiring frenzy of 7,500 new people will not happen in 4 years to hit the 20% anyways) Also add the shift at TCAP to the numbers below that are mostly reloaded temorary full timers. You will quickly see that we are closer to 3,000 people at entry level wages. A benefit to gain a lower wage rate. The current $58 per hour is not attainable by VEBA alone. The close to 3,000 Entry Level waged currently working knocks down our labor rates substantionally. _________________________________________ Current labor rates for product and investments in USA/UAW facilities Chrysler $51 per hour - Higher entry level utilization than Ford entry level GM $55 per hour - Higher entry level utilization than Ford entry level but less than Chrysler Ford $58 per hour - Entry Level just under 100 members, LTS negotiated in 2007 around 800. Dropped our labor rates substantially from the 2007 $70 per hour rate as well as the VEBA and COLA. _________________________________________ Transition ALL LTS to entry level plus fill the CAP 3rd shift ( 1,100 people), LAP shortages with 3 shifts (1,200 people), MAP 3rd shift (manning shortfall 200 people). Once the 2007 investment windfall takes full effect these entry level needs will be hired ------> 2,500 new jobs>>>>>> Lowering our rates (closer to GM and Chrysler) again to get even more product in our under utilized Engine, Transmission and Stamping plants with another 4 year commitment of assembly cycle plans. I am thoroughly impressed with the vision of the UAW and the ultimate success in job security for our entire UAW-Ford membership in the worst economic conditions this country has ever seen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louie Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Did anyone go to this meeting??? Was there any resolution to keep our labor rates at the current competitive level and not have entry level??? Did any one offer resolution to any perceived problems that the Negotiators may need to know??? Was the meeting all complaining with no resolution??? I am hopeful some formidable resolutions were achieved at this meeting but I'm not holding my breath. These dissident groups can point out every ill in this world but offer no real solutions. I am hopeful to hear just one REAL resolution from this group. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lquidspine Posted July 24, 2011 Author Share Posted July 24, 2011 Did anyone go to this meeting??? Was there any resolution to keep our labor rates at the current competitive level and not have entry level??? Did any one offer resolution to any perceived problems that the Negotiators may need to know??? Was the meeting all complaining with no resolution??? I am hopeful some formidable resolutions were achieved at this meeting but I'm not holding my breath. These dissident groups can point out every ill in this world but offer no real solutions. I am hopeful to hear just one REAL resolution from this group. Reading comprehension 101, It has not happened yet the date is August 13th. Maybe that is part of the problem we are having here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louie Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Reading comprehension 101, It has not happened yet the date is August 13th. Maybe that is part of the problem we are having here. LOL............... Obviously I didnt look at the date,,, hehehehe, lol,,,,, Good response Actually I was excited to hear of any possibility of problem solving,,,,,,, Guess i will have to wait and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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