akirby Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Right now the Fusion has 0%, the Flex has $3,000 on the hood and so on. Someone already claims the Escape is a fleet queen...please post a link of YTD retail vs fleet stats...just interested. Guess it doesnt matter how well the old Escape sold, sounds like chapter one in the book of excuses for the new one starts with Ford making a lot more money selling fewer units...but at the same base price as the old one...neet trick. That's the new One Ford though, sell fewer vehicles at the highest price possible...Lincoln must be rolling in cash then! Ironically this is the exact opposite of how Henry built the company but I'm sure the current executives are much smarter than he was... Ford can't outcheap the Koreans and to try would simply result in bankruptcy or everything outsourced to Korea. Just because you don't like it personally doesn't mean it's a bad business decision. Ford isn't overpricing their vehicles - they're just offering better vehicles that don't have to be heavily discounted to sell. And they're selling more options. I just don't understand why you can't comprehend such a simple mathematical concept. If you keep the base price the same but you lower the incentives, your profit increases. If you sell more options with the newer model than you did with the older model then your profit increases. If you totally eliminate one of two redundant platforms, your profit increases. If your profit increases then you can easily make more money from less volume. I mean seriously - if someone offered to sell you 10,000 Camrys that you could sell at an average profit of $1K OR 8,000 Fusions that you could sell at an average profit of $1500 - which would you choose? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I just don't understand why you can't comprehend such a simple mathematical concept. If you keep the base price the same but you lower the incentives, your profit increases. If you sell more options with the newer model than you did with the older model then your profit increases. If you totally eliminate one of two redundant platforms, your profit increases. If your profit increases then you can easily make more money from less volume. I mean seriously - if someone offered to sell you 10,000 Camrys that you could sell at an average profit of $1K OR 8,000 Fusions that you could sell at an average profit of $1500 - which would you choose? And now, the 200 level course: If you replace 2 (or 3) region-specific models with one global model, you reduce your development and manufacturing costs exponentially. :reading: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Someone already claims the Escape is a fleet queen...please post a link of YTD retail vs fleet stats...just interested. http://www.automotive-fleet.com/Statistics/StatsViewer.aspx?file=http%3a%2f%2fwww.automotive-fleet.com%2ffc_resources%2fstats%2fAFFB11-14-top5.pdf&channel= The Escape was the Top Commercial (not as bad) and Rental SUV.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 http://www.automotive-fleet.com/Statistics/StatsViewer.aspx?file=http%3a%2f%2fwww.automotive-fleet.com%2ffc_resources%2fstats%2fAFFB11-14-top5.pdf&channel= The Escape was the Top Commercial (not as bad) and Rental SUV.... So a total of 51,507 fleet Escapes in 2010 (26,283 Commercial and 25,224 Rental), of 191,026 total Escapes sold. In 2010, the Escape was about 27% fleet. About 13-14% of all sales were to rental agencies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) So a total of 51,507 fleet Escapes in 2010 (26,283 Commercial and 25,224 Rental), of 191,026 total Escapes sold. In 2010, the Escape was about 27% fleet. About 13-14% of all sales were to rental agencies. So what I gather from all of this is the new Escape will not be sold as a fleet vehicle (or in extremely small percentages) and will not have hardly any incentives and still sell at about the same rate as the current Escape? This is going to have to be one heck of a vehicle to manage all of that. Arguing that Escape's success is due to its design is like saying Ford sells many Rangers because of its classic evergreen looks Do you realize that the current Escape is actually a very modern and state of the art design compared to the Ranger? The only vehicle that compares to the Ranger is the Panthers for being outdated. I'm not arguing that the Escape isn't in need of being redesigned because it is, but to put it in the same league as the Ranger is doing a disservice to the vehicle. Edited September 20, 2011 by 2005Explorer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 So what I gather from all of this is the new Escape will not be sold as a fleet vehicle (or in extremely small percentages) and will not have hardly any incentives and still sell at about the same rate as the current Escape? This is going to have to be one heck of a vehicle to manage all of that. Who said that was definitely happening? What is being said here, the best I understand it, is that a properly redesigned, modern, compact crossover utility vehicle should allow Ford to rely less on incentives and fleet sales. When you couple this with the conjoining of the Escape and Kuga programs, the more sound fiscal outlook is difficult to deny. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Who said that was definitely happening? What is being said here, the best I understand it, is that a properly redesigned, modern, compact crossover utility vehicle should allow Ford to rely less on incentives and fleet sales. When you couple this with the conjoining of the Escape and Kuga programs, the more sound fiscal outlook is difficult to deny. You and I both know that the current Escape is a cash cow regardless of fleet percentage or incentives and to be honest the incentives on the current Escape aren't really out of line compared to some other Ford offerings right now. Sorry maybe I just feel like it's an old friend getting killed off and being replaced by something so radically different I am having a hard time warming up to it. You know I have owned a 93 Tempo, 00 Sable with the D30, 02 Explorer V8, 05 Explorer V6, 08 Fusion AWD and last an 11 Escape. Out of all of those vehicles BY FAR the Escape is my favorite. I even prefer it over the Fusion I owned even though it's a little higher so it doesn't handle quite as well. It's roomy for it's size and the visibility is great. It's quick around town and easy to park. I know a lot of you are big fans of the look alike rounded off - pinched back little wagons, but I'm not. I guess I will just have to live through this little styling fad and hopefully in the future they will start to put larger windows and a decent roofline on these vehicles again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 You and I both know that the current Escape is a cash cow regardless of fleet percentage or incentives and to be honest the incentives on the current Escape aren't really out of line compared to some other Ford offerings right now. I know that it is, but how much longer can a 15-ish year old platform and 10 year old greenhouse carry it? They've done a good job keeping the Escape "fresh", without having to invest major capital (considering the age of the product). It's time for a clean-sheet redesign no matter what. You object to the styling direction they're taking, and that's fair. They're obviously aiming more at the meat of the market in giving the 2013 a more modern (though, IMHO, still aggressive) style, abandoning the squared off front and rear of the current model. They wouldn't do that on a whim, and with their recent successes I certainly have faith they've done their homework. While the blocky front and rear blended decently with the circa-2001 greenhouse, it's very easily to get "blocky" styling wrong (see: GMC Terrain). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I know a lot of you are big fans of the look alike rounded off - pinched back little wagons, but I'm not. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure whether I like the new exterior better than the current one (personally). The difference is I don't take my personal preferences and try to apply them to Ford global product decisions nor do I think that Ford has to build every vehicle the way I want it. You say "I don't like it therefore nobody else will like it." You also seem to think that Ford has to win the sales race. You're wrong on both counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 ...something so radically different I am having a hard time warming up to it... ...I know a lot of you are big fans of the look alike rounded off - pinched back little wagons, but I'm not... ...abandoning the squared off front and rear of the current model... ...the blocky front and rear blended decently with the circa-2001 greenhouse, it's very easily to get "blocky" styling wrong (see: GMC Terrain). quickie chop just imho but the blocky front goes pretty good with the new sheetmetal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure whether I like the new exterior better than the current one (personally). The difference is I don't take my personal preferences and try to apply them to Ford global product decisions nor do I think that Ford has to build every vehicle the way I want it. You say "I don't like it therefore nobody else will like it." You also seem to think that Ford has to win the sales race. You're wrong on both counts. So therefore you don't have any opinions and basically will drive anything Ford pushes down the line. As far as winning the sales race I do believe that Ford should want to continue to be one of the best selling compact SUVs. You say sales numbers don't matter. Well they might not matter if we are talking a $50,000+ Lincoln, but sales matter a lot when we are talking a small mainstream SUV. I think you of all people would understand that volume matters in small and midsize mainstream vehicles if you want to make big profit. Claiming that sales don't matter at all is just insurance for your argument in case the new Escape can't post the same sort of sales volume. Who knows maybe people will just go nuts for this thing and it will sell at MSRP for every single transaction and Ford will be able to sell even more then they can of the current Escape. I don't know, but I can tell you if sales fall when a vehicle is completely redesigned that is never a good sign or something that a company wants to happen even though you seem to think that Ford likes coming out with new designs that sell poorer then the vehicles they replace. Edited September 20, 2011 by 2005Explorer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I owned a 2006 Escape Limited. It was a love-hate relationship. I'm on the fence about the new one. I'm just going to wait until they release it to form an opinion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 So therefore you don't have any opinions and basically will drive anything Ford pushes down the line. If I don't like it then I won't buy it. Take the Camry e.g. - hate it. Would never buy one. But it's the best selling midsized sedan in America so who am I to argue that Toyota screwed up because they didn't make a car that I like. As far as winning the sales race I do believe that Ford should want to continue to be one of the best selling compact SUVs. You say sales numbers don't matter. Well they might not matter if we are talking a $50,000+ Lincoln, but sales matter a lot when we are talking a small mainstream SUV. I think you of all people would understand that volume matters in small and midsize mainstream vehicles if you want to make big profit. Claiming that sales don't matter at all is just insurance for your argument in case the new Escape can't post the same sort of sales volume. I didn't say sales don't matter - I said they don't have to be #1 to be successful. Ford could reduce the price of the Fusion by $10K and easily outsell the Camry (if they could build enough of them). But they'd be losing money. Apparently you don't understand how much money Ford stands to save by combining the Kuga and Escape onto one platform. Apparently you don't understand how making a more desirable vehicle reduces incentives and raises ATPs and therefore profit per vehicle. Apparently you don't understand that selling fewer vehicles with less overhead but more profit per vehicle can increase overall profitability. You don't like it. Fine. Get over it and move on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I'm just going to wait until they release it to form an opinion. You'll get nowhere around here thinking like that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 You'll get nowhere around here thinking like that! It's radical thinking, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I owned a 2006 Escape Limited. It was a love-hate relationship. I'm on the fence about the new one. I'm just going to wait until they release it to form an opinion. STOP BEING LOGICAL! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 STOP BEING LOGICAL! Must..........stay...............illogical...........aaaaaarrrrrrgggghhhhhhh!!!!!! Sorry, I can't do it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) You and I both know that the current Escape is a cash cow regardless of fleet percentage or incentives..... Would you care to explain how you know the margins for the Escape? Nobody in this entire room even has an inkling of the margins on the Escape, unless there is a Ford executive in here and wishes to speak up! I could just as easily tell you that Ford will make more on the new Escape..it doesn't mean anything because you and I don't know that. It's an educated guess based on observable facts that development is shared globally and will therefore sell in higher collective volume than the orphaned models spread across the planet. Not to mention that shared parts across the entire Ford lineup mean better quality control and development expenses. It's a beautiful thing to see the Escape joining the greater order and will now be on a sustainable path for constant development. Edited September 20, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Would you care to explain how you know the margins for the Escape? Nobody in this entire room even has an inkling of the margins on the Escape, unless there is a Ford executive in here and wishes to speak up! actually i would have a tendency to think shes a good money maker for Ford. Its not like they have plonked a bunch of $ into updates of any significance. Its actually one of the Escapes virtues...in the Ford lineup, I would consider its honest and simple, almost ( dare I say it ) Panther-esque.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Would you care to explain how you know the margins for the Escape? Nobody in this entire room even has an inkling of the margins on the Escape, unless there is a Ford executive in here and wishes to speak up! Borg, this is actually Alan, I frequent here under a pseudonom, to answer your question, we make a shit load.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Would you care to explain how you know the margins for the Escape? Nobody in this entire room even has an inkling of the margins on the Escape, unless there is a Ford executive in here and wishes to speak up! I could just as easily tell you that Ford will make more on the new Escape..it doesn't mean anything because you and I don't know that. It's an educated guess based on observable facts that development is shared globally and will therefore sell in higher collective volume than the orphaned models spread across the planet. Not to mention that shared parts across the entire Ford lineup mean better quality control and development expenses. It's a beautiful thing to see the Escape joining the greater order and will now be on a sustainable path for constant development. That is funny because it seems that everyone else around here seems to know how much money they are making on the new Focus right now. Supposed to be mega bucks on every unit sold from what I have heard some say. You say platform sharing means better quality control. If that is correct why have we seen such poor examples in fit and finish of the Focus being pushed down the line and ending up at the dealerships? That should not be happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) That is funny because it seems that everyone else around here seems to know how much money they are making on the new Focus right now. Supposed to be mega bucks on every unit sold from what I have heard some say. You say platform sharing means better quality control. If that is correct why have we seen such poor examples in fit and finish of the Focus being pushed down the line and ending up at the dealerships? That should not be happening. I don't understand the correlation between quality control over parts and the F*ck-ups at the Wayne assembly plant. If you remember, the Escape had a VERY rough launch with steering wheels falling off and premature brake failures and loads of recalls. I don't seem to recall that happening with the Focus yet do you? Edited September 20, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I don't understand the correlation between quality control over parts and the F*ck-ups at the Wayne assembly plant. If you remember, the Escape had a VERY rough launch with steering wheels falling off and premature brake failures and loads of recalls. I don't seem to recall that happening with the Focus yet do you? Well I expect more out of them in 2011 then what they did in 2000. Don't you? You claimed that platform sharing would ensure much higher levels of quality. All I was saying is that I haven't seen that yet in the new Focus. I'm sure it will get better, but in this day and age launches should be smooth if you want to jump to the front of the class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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