2005Explorer Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 We don't just "think" they'll get it right this time - we think they're totally committed to doing it this time. They killed Mercury; they hired a dedicated design team; they hired a team of 85 people to oversee the turnaround. When has Ford EVER put this much effort into Lincoln? When has YOU haven't seen Lincoln's vision yet so how can you critique it? We have seen a little bit of Lincoln's new vision. It's called a new front end on the MKT and a new front and rear on the MKS. Now there is a good chance the interiors will see a little change, however do you really believe these two products are going to be so much better then the ones they replace that they will motivate luxury customers to purchase at a higher rate then the current models? I don't. The upcoming MKZ better be 100% unique next to the Fusion. It needs to be very distinct so that the dealers and customers believe that Ford finally gets it. On top of being distinct, it needs to be a better looking car next to the Fusion. If you just strive for distinct and not care about the outcome then you end up with something like the ugly MKT. I honestly believe the designers were on a mission to do whatever it took to ensure it didn't look like a Flex no matter the outcome. Ford wants dealers to spend big dollars in making their dealerships world class. I think it's going to take more then a face lifted MKS and MKT to really inspire dealers to open their pockets and spare no expense. You claim to be a great business man. If you owned a Lincoln dealership would you be opening your pockets and spending big bucks with products like a face lifted MKS and MKT on the horizon? I think you would want to see more. A lot more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 We have seen a little bit of Lincoln's new vision. It's called a new front end on the MKT and a new front and rear on the MKS. Now there is a good chance the interiors will see a little change, however do you really believe these two products are going to be so much better then the ones they replace that they will motivate luxury customers to purchase at a higher rate then the current models? I don't. MCE != "new vision." They're bringing those two in line with the MKX, especially interior-wise. We have a few years before we find out details on the true next-generation models of anything Lincoln comes out with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) MCE != "new vision." They're bringing those two in line with the MKX, especially interior-wise. We have a few years before we find out details on the true next-generation models of anything Lincoln comes out with. I still believe it is going to take a lot more then bringing a couple of vehicles in line with a current badge engineered (well done I might add) but still badge engineered Edge. If I was a dealer I wouldn't be ready to open my pockets on fancy upgrades until I saw more then new grilles. I feel it is going to all come down to the MKZ. It needs to be a home run hit out of the park then people might start looking at Lincoln differently. Right now no one has much respect for the brand except for older folks who love their Town Cars. Edited October 4, 2011 by 2005Explorer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I still believe it is going to take a lot more then bringing a couple of vehicles in line with a current badge engineered (well done I might add) but still badge engineered Edge. If I was a dealer I wouldn't be ready to open my pockets on fancy upgrades until I saw more then new grilles. I feel it is going to all come down to the MKZ. It needs to be a home run hit out of the park then people might start looking at Lincoln differently. Right now no one has much respect for the brand except for older folks who love their Town Cars. No one's arguing that. But these updates were already programmed for MY '13, with MKZ being the only actual new model. Lincoln's not gonna be reborn on the strength of one new model (see Cadillac CTS). The whole brand needs to turn over before that happens, and we still have some time left before that happens. What am I saying? Don't expect too much too soon. That's not the way Ford has run the past 5 years, and they're not gonna start now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 No one's arguing that. But these updates were already programmed for MY '13, with MKZ being the only actual new model. Lincoln's not gonna be reborn on the strength of one new model (see Cadillac CTS). The whole brand needs to turn over before that happens, and we still have some time left before that happens. What am I saying? Don't expect too much too soon. That's not the way Ford has run the past 5 years, and they're not gonna start now. How long did it take Caddy to get the CTS right? Several years and a major redesign. Same for the SRX. It boggles my mind why people think Caddy is in such better shape than Lincoln. It's ok when Caddy shares a platform with lesser models for the SRX and XTS but it's not ok when Lincoln does it. The MKT hasn't been successful, but they're still building it which is more than can be said for the DTS, STS and XLR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I still believe it is going to take a lot more then bringing a couple of vehicles in line with a current badge engineered (well done I might add) but still badge engineered Edge. If I was a dealer I wouldn't be ready to open my pockets on fancy upgrades until I saw more then new grilles. I feel it is going to all come down to the MKZ. It needs to be a home run hit out of the park then people might start looking at Lincoln differently. Right now no one has much respect for the brand except for older folks who love their Town Cars. All it takes is one home run and the respect will come. Caddy respect is built on ONE VEHICLE - the CTS. And it took them 2 tries to get there. The MKT and MKS are NOT examples of Lincolns vision - they're stop gap MCEs. The MKX is in the same boat - they changed as much as possible but could not change the greenhouse/roof/doors etc. to distance it even further from the Edge. The NEXT versions of the MKS, MKT and MKX will be Lincoln's vision. The MKZ will be the first example. I just don't understand why you whiners think Lincoln can just flip a switch and fix all 7 vehicles at the same time. This will be a 3-4 year journey that's just starting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 The NEXT versions of the MKS, MKT and MKX will be Lincoln's vision. The MKZ will be the first example. I just don't understand why you whiners think Lincoln can just flip a switch and fix all 7 vehicles at the same time. This will be a 3-4 year journey that's just starting. Lincoln is in the same spot Ford was in 2005...well they might be in a better spot since they are at least based off the the better Fords that have come out since then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Caddy has done a much better job targeting new customers than Lincoln...Ford has a spectacular lack of vision and innovation in this field, blame Mulally CADILLAC IS STILL AROUND BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT GAVE GM FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS. CADILLAC IS STILL AROUND BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT GAVE GM FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS. CADILLAC IS STILL AROUND BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT GAVE GM FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS. CADILLAC IS STILL AROUND BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT GAVE GM FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS. CADILLAC IS STILL AROUND BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT GAVE GM FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS. CADILLAC IS STILL AROUND BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT GAVE GM FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS. CADILLAC IS STILL AROUND BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT GAVE GM FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS. CADILLAC IS STILL AROUND BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT GAVE GM FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS. CADILLAC IS STILL AROUND BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT GAVE GM FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS. 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RichardJensen Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 But don't quote me on that. Hell, I'm sure that Ford could turn Lincoln around if the government gave them a $16B slush fund and a 'get out of bankruptcy free' card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 But don't quote me on that. Hell, I'm sure that Ford could turn Lincoln around if the government gave them a $16B slush fund and a 'get out of bankruptcy free' card. Why can't we quote it? Richard, I say give your self POTW for that crappy color! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 We have seen a little bit of Lincoln's new vision. It's called a new front end on the MKT and a new front and rear on the MKS. Now there is a good chance the interiors will see a little change, however do you really believe these two products are going to be so much better then the ones they replace that they will motivate luxury customers to purchase at a higher rate then the current models? I don't. The upcoming MKZ better be 100% unique next to the Fusion. It needs to be very distinct so that the dealers and customers believe that Ford finally gets it. On top of being distinct, it needs to be a better looking car next to the Fusion. If you just strive for distinct and not care about the outcome then you end up with something like the ugly MKT. I honestly believe the designers were on a mission to do whatever it took to ensure it didn't look like a Flex no matter the outcome. Ford wants dealers to spend big dollars in making their dealerships world class. I think it's going to take more then a face lifted MKS and MKT to really inspire dealers to open their pockets and spare no expense. You claim to be a great business man. If you owned a Lincoln dealership would you be opening your pockets and spending big bucks with products like a face lifted MKS and MKT on the horizon? I think you would want to see more. A lot more. You can't call light MCEs on the MKT and MKS true examples of Lincoln's new vision - changes will be so limited it can't possibly fully represent the brand's direction. They're merely stopgap products. MKZ on the other hand, yes, will represent Lincoln's new direction/vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) You can't call light MCEs on the MKT and MKS true examples of Lincoln's new vision - changes will be so limited it can't possibly fully represent the brand's direction. They're merely stopgap products. MKZ on the other hand, yes, will represent Lincoln's new direction/vision. This has happened before and will happen again...again...again...again. I have been a Lincoln customer forever and I have seen more "new directions" at Lincoln than Ford has...and this one is nothing new...it actually started a few years ago with the MKS and MKT, and before that with the MKZ and MKX. And the new MKZ and Fusion share glass and roof metal...nothing has changed at Lincoln because they still haven't committed to true tophat differentiation across the board and assume we won't notice if they blind us with gorgeous design (which is possible). Lincoln design should be so innovative and different than there is NO WAY it could share this much with a Fusion, hard points and all. But don't for a minute believe the Lincoln rhetoric, they've already misled us about the new MKZ and it will almost certainly not go unpunished. Edited October 5, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 And the new MKZ and Fusion share glass and roof metal...nothing has changed at Lincoln because they still haven't committed to true tophat differentiation across the board and assume we won notice if they blind us with gorgeous design (which is possible). I'd like to know where you got your X-ray vision to see past the camo on the Mules driving around :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 I'd like to know where you got your X-ray vision to see past the camo on the Mules driving around :lol: You mean the the parts of the cars not covered by camo, do I need x-ray vision for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 You mean the the parts of the cars not covered by camo, do I need x-ray vision for that? So what if they share the glass on them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) So what if they share the glass on them... Given how dramatic the roofline is on both these cars, sharing this much of the greenhouse makes it pretty easy to identify them as the same car. I'm sure the Lincoln looks awesome, but over time that blinding light fades and everybody will acknowledge this as business as usual at Lincoln. I'm ultimately waiting on to see what they do with the Escape variant, which has the biggest potential to bring in new customers and volume to Lincoln. Edited October 5, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Given how dramatic the roofline is on both these cars, sharing this much of the greenhouse makes it pretty easy to identify them as the same car. I'm sure the Lincoln looks awesome, but over time that blinding light fades and everybody will acknowledge this as business as usual at Lincoln. I'm ultimately waiting on to see what they do with the Escape variant, which has the biggest potential to bring in new customers and volume to Lincoln. If the Fusion and MKZ share a roofline and glass I will be the first to admit it's a disappointment and not what Lincoln has promised. But to base this on a couple of spy shots of "some" vehicle that may or may not be a production Fusion or MKZ and to ignore all of the changes that Lincoln has made the last few years is simply ridiculous. You're nothing but a grouch looking for something to complain about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 The nice part about this for the perpetual doom-and-gloomers is this: Ford's stopgap Lincoln strategy c. 2005-2010 didn't work, and so you've got two lovely options: Bellyache because Ford doesn't take Lincoln in a new direction OR Bellyache because Ford is taking Lincoln in yet another new direction. It's win/win! No matter what, you've got something to grouse about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 The nice part about this for the perpetual doom-and-gloomers is this: Ford's stopgap Lincoln strategy c. 2005-2010 didn't work, and so you've got two lovely options: Bellyache because Ford doesn't take Lincoln in a new direction OR Bellyache because Ford is taking Lincoln in yet another new direction. It's win/win! No matter what, you've got something to grouse about. They are not taking it another new direction..they are taking it in the same direction! That's my point dude! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 They are not taking it another new direction..they are taking it in the same direction! That's my point dude! How can you possibly say that one way or the other if we haven't even seen what the new direction will be yet? Patience, grasshoppah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 the same direction The same direction being what exactly? Cars that share no sheetmetal with any Ford -- e.g. MKT and MKS, or cars that share a great deal of sheetmetal with Ford -- e.g. MKX, MKZ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) The same direction being what exactly? Cars that share no sheetmetal with any Ford -- e.g. MKT and MKS, or cars that share a great deal of sheetmetal with Ford -- e.g. MKX, MKZ? And I suppose "Great Deal" means something different than "Some" since that qualifies the distinction between the Fusion/MKZ relationship in 2006 vs 2013. The point is, Lincoln has failed with the MKZ to completely distance itself from the Ford it's based on. They promised this as evidence of their NEW Lincoln...and they intend to mislead us....all they are doing is changing the message. Whether that makes a difference or not will have to wait for January. I am still very confident than the new MKZ will be sexy enough to excuse it's obvious Fusion bones, but it will not solve Lincoln's re-badging image problem. I JUST WANT LESS COMPROMISE at Lincoln...it just doesn't seem to find an end no matter what they say. The MKS and MKT were done without compromise (sure the MKT is disastrous design, but that's not my point), they were examples of Lincoln's commitment to be a full luxury marque and not a relic of "Good enough, we'll lead on price because nobody shopping with us cares about design anyway" thinking. Edited October 5, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) And I suppose "Great Deal" means something different than "Some" since that qualifies the distinction between the Fusion/MKZ relationship in 2006 vs 2013. The point is, Lincoln has failed with the MKZ to completely distance itself from the Ford it's based on. They promised this as evidence of their NEW Lincoln...and they intend to mislead us....all they are doing is changing the message. Whether that makes a difference or not will have to wait for January. I am still very confident than the new MKZ will be sexy enough to excuse it's obvious Fusion bones, but it will not solve Lincoln's re-badging image problem. I JUST WANT LESS COMPROMISE at Lincoln...it just doesn't seem to find an end no matter what they say. The MKS and MKT were done without compromise (sure the MKT is disastrous design, but that's not my point), they were examples of Lincoln's commitment to be a full luxury marque and not a relic of "Good enough, we'll lead on price because nobody shopping with us cares about design anyway" thinking. Can you not see the Camry's bones in the Lexus ES? Does anybody care? Can we just... WAIT TO SEE THE FINAL PRODUCT FIRST??!?! Edited October 5, 2011 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) Lincoln has failed with the MKZ to completely distance itself from the Ford it's based on.. And you're basing that on what? A January 2011 commitment to unique sheetmetal on Lincolns after the 2013 MKZ was frozen? Look, the MKZ and MKX have hardly been failures for Lincoln, despite the shared sheetmetal, nor have the MKS & MKT been disasters for Lincoln (compare MKT to Q7 & R Class, between the 3, it shakes out to roughly 50% Q7, 33% MKT, 17% R Class, and none of them are doing well this year). I think you need to get a dose of perspective. Especially when you compare Lincoln with, say, Audi a brand that sells fewer units per model stateside than Lincoln. Edited October 5, 2011 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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