The MKZ Concept Will Not Save Lincoln

[Boss444]

What?! You mean they'll have to update all the other models as well?! You could knock me over with a feather! I hope FoMoCo know about this!

 

I know, right!

 

The thing that really annoys me is the short sightedness of the nearly all the journo's when it comes to Lincoln bashing articles - they have no concept that Lincoln can't just magically make all-new cars over night and also with out relying on related Ford products - there just isn't enough money / justification to make completely unique cars!

 

That's a stretch...I don't think any of them actually believe that. But one could look at it that Lincoln has been reinventing itself since 2006...ever since the MKX. New SUV, new name, new engines, etc. That wouldn't be an unreasonable position to have. And then it changed in 2009 with the MKS and a new styling direction for their new car.

[atomcat68]

Its true that a concept will not save Lincoln.

 

It's the production model and the others that will follow.

 

Did the Ford GT save Ford in 2004?

[Boss444]

Its true that a concept will not save Lincoln.

 

It's the production model and the others that will follow.

 

Did the Ford GT save Ford in 2004?

 

Bingo.

[Hugh]

That's a stretch...I don't think any of them actually believe that.

It is grist as far as these articles are concerned. It is written in a typical lack of background and leap of reality. This is not the first and not the last article that leaves a "How hard can it be to build a <insert car make here> that everyone would love and buy." taint.

 

You are probably right it's a stretch but it won't get folks to read their articles. Look at the comments and it's the same old pipe dreams. It's got to be RWD, got to have at least 350-400 hp, it's got get over 30 MPG. Even Ford Social has requests/ideas that frankly are pretty far out.

 

It's not that simple for instant gratification and although the authors point is valid, it fails.

[akirby]

Why does Lincoln need to be "saved" in the first place? It's not dead.

 

Why is it that one car can't save Lincoln but one car did apparently save Cadillac (CTS)?

 

Why would anyone even say such a thing when Lincoln has already announced plans for major dealership revamps and at least 7 new vehicles on the way.

[fou_bleu]

Why does Lincoln need to be "saved" in the first place? It's not dead.

 

Why is it that one car can't save Lincoln but one car did apparently save Cadillac (CTS)?

 

Why would anyone even say such a thing when Lincoln has already announced plans for major dealership revamps and at least 7 new vehicles on the way.

 

Because it's not GM. (I agree with you on all those points, too.)

[RichardJensen]

the MKZ was only a very small part of Lincoln's problems.

Exactly. Lousy dealer experience, vague market positioning, inconsistent design direction.

 

Arguably, for this segment, the vehicles themselves are/were the *least* of Lincoln's problems.

 

Tossing world class product into Lincoln's more or less fossilized distribution channel would be like trying to bake a souffle over a campfire.

[2005Explorer]

Why does Lincoln need to be "saved" in the first place? It's not dead.

 

It's not dead, but it is certainly on life support at the present time. Lincoln does have some major image problems to fix before it is successful once again. One car won't save it, but the MKZ is probably going to be the deciding factor whether it can or cannot be saved. I think it can, but exactly how successful it will be up against the best in the world remains to be seen.

[akirby]

It's not dead, but it is certainly on life support at the present time.

 

Reference?

[calypsocoral]

While I think the author's premise is wrong-- I happen to believe the MkZ concept does help define a direction for Lincoln-- I do understand what he's saying.

 

Many of you have pointed out the Toyota/Lexus connection, but let's examine this: Yes, their SUV's ride on the same basic chassis (the GX is a V8-powered 4Runner, the LX is an upscale Land Cruiser), and the ES is a gussied-up Camry-- this is common knowledge.

 

Look at the rest of the lineup, though. You have the IS, the GS, and the LS. None of them share a chassis with a common Toyota-- they were designed specifically for the Lexus brand. This means that 3 out of 8 (including the new hybrid-- I'm not even counting the LF-A)-- NEARLY HALF-- of their lineup is much more than a re-badged Toyota.

 

Can you truly say that about Lincoln? Honestly?

 

To truly add the necessary "Lux Cred" to the Lincoln line, Lincoln will need at least one, if not two, models that Lincoln does not share with Ford. I realize Ford is still not in the greatest financial shape, but they need to find the money to make this happen.

 

Hey, since Ford is never going to make anything like the Interceptor concept, a RWD, 3.5L EcoBoost V6-powered Continental would be something to experience.

[Hugh]

Look at the rest of the lineup, though. You have the IS, the GS, and the LS. None of them share a chassis with a common Toyota-- they were designed specifically for the Lexus brand. This means that 3 out of 8 (including the new hybrid-- I'm not even counting the LF-A)-- NEARLY HALF-- of their lineup is much more than a re-badged Toyota.

 

Can you truly say that about Lincoln? Honestly?

 

In the beginning of Lexus there was two models: LS and ES. AFAIK, the LX came a year later? Which car made the most profit/unit? I honestly don't know. I'm not sure if IS is unique which is like saying the 2011 Corolla is 'All-New'. GS AFAIK, is based on a JDM chassis.

 

How much money Toyota placed in Lexus to make it self-sufficient? At least less requirement from home office to create the rest of their line up?

 

Yes, I can see similarities here. Lincoln in this case will NOT relaunch with a LS400 style V8 RWD flagship. In 2005, Ford did not have any logical reason to do so. Toyota was profitable and set to take over the world with reliable appliances and decided another market to conquer was in order. I think we can agree on that.

 

Now, in 2012 with Ford in the black, is there a case now? If they said yes tomorrow, we won't see anything for at least another three years.

[calypsocoral]

In the beginning of Lexus there was two models: LS and ES. AFAIK, the LX came a year later? Which car made the most profit/unit? I honestly don't know. I'm not sure if IS is unique which is like saying the 2011 Corolla is 'All-New'. GS AFAIK, is based on a JDM chassis.

 

All of the cars that we know as "Lexus" are sold as "Toyota" in their home market-- but Toyota's home market perceives them differently.

 

In the U.S., we are trained on the "nameplate" perception-- the average American assumes that a Cadillac is more upscale than a Buick, which is more upscale than the "blue collar" Chevrolet. Toyota understood this and launched the Lexus brand in the United States.

 

I can't think of a Toyota in 1990 that shared the original LS 400's chassis, so Lexus did the right thing by launching with something that was markedly-different from the mainstream Toyota.

 

The IS was originally the Toyota Altezza (and had an awesome straight-6 engine) in their home market in Japan, but was not sold in the United States until the launch of Lexus. Again, this car had little-to-nothing in common with the mainstream American Toyota.

 

Now, is the IS completely unique? It doesn't share a common platform with any Toyota sold in the US, if that's what you mean. I think it may be a down-sized version of the platform used for the Lexus GS, but I can't quite remember. Either way, the IS, GS, and LS have NO corresponding Toyota models sold in the United States. Just check the wheelbases and the drivetrain layouts (longitudinally-mounted engine, rear-wheel-drive).

[Kris Kolman]

Look at the rest of the lineup, though. You have the IS, the GS, and the LS. None of them share a chassis with a common Toyota-- they were designed specifically for the Lexus brand. This means that 3 out of 8 (including the new hybrid-- I'm not even counting the LF-A)-- NEARLY HALF-- of their lineup is much more than a re-badged Toyota.

 

First off you forgot about the CT and HS compacts which both are based on Toyota platforms as well... CT on the Corolla and the HS on the international market Avensis. Actually you are wrong about the GS... The GS isn't a unique and bespoke Lexus vehicle, but instead based based off an existing Toyota product. The Lexus GS was based on the Toyota Aristo, an international market sedan that was on the market 2 years before the first GS. And both are based of the Toyota Crown which has a long distingished history in Japan and is still built today as a platform mate to the GS. The Aristo has stopped production as the Lexus brand has gone global.

 

And as for the IS it is highly derived from the Crown/GS platform and market wise takes the place of another Toyota international model, the Toyota Altezza. But as the IS was part of Toyota's strategy to take Lexus global and the the Altezza was only a stop gap until Lexus got in market I'll give you that one.

 

I know its hard to think globally sometimes... But the real ratio of bespoke Lexus's is 3 out of 10. And 2 of those 3 are vehicles in market segments Lincoln isn't wading into (LS and LFA).

[fou_bleu]

^^^ Kris! Stop making sense!!! Geez...

[NickF1011]

Oy, I guess this didn't help matters much.

 

http://jalopnik.com/5874891/embarrassed-lincoln-mkz-concept-goes-up-in-smoke-in-detroit

 

Ah, nothing like a Wu-Tang reference to demonstrate your objectivity. :glare:

[akirby]

Look at the rest of the lineup, though. You have the IS, the GS, and the LS. None of them share a chassis with a common Toyota--

 

So let's look at 2011 Sales (rounded)

 

IS 30K

GS 11K

LS 10K

 

Total 51K

 

ES 41K

RX 83K

CT 15K

HS 3K

 

Total 142K

 

The rest:

SC 18

GX 12K

LX 3K

 

Bespoke platforms or not - Expensive RWD luxury vehicles do not sell in big numbers. If you were tasked with reinventing Lincoln which market would you go after first?

[silvrsvt]

I still can't believe the numbers the RX sells at...its selling extremely well for something that starts at 35k+

Edited January 11, 2012 by silvrsvt

[calypsocoral]

First off you forgot about the CT and HS compacts which both are based on Toyota platforms as well... CT on the Corolla and the HS on the international market Avensis. Actually you are wrong about the GS... The GS isn't a unique and bespoke Lexus vehicle, but instead based based off an existing Toyota product. The Lexus GS was based on the Toyota Aristo, an international market sedan that was on the market 2 years before the first GS. And both are based of the Toyota Crown which has a long distingished history in Japan and is still built today as a platform mate to the GS. The Aristo has stopped production as the Lexus brand has gone global.

 

And as for the IS it is highly derived from the Crown/GS platform and market wise takes the place of another Toyota international model, the Toyota Altezza. But as the IS was part of Toyota's strategy to take Lexus global and the the Altezza was only a stop gap until Lexus got in market I'll give you that one.

 

I know its hard to think globally sometimes... But the real ratio of bespoke Lexus's is 3 out of 10. And 2 of those 3 are vehicles in market segments Lincoln isn't wading into (LS and LFA).

 

When I said "Does not have a Toyota counterpart" I was referring specifically to the American market. I'm not thinking globally, because bringing cars that American buyers CANNOT BUY into the equation is POINTLESS when drawing a comparison between Lincoln and Lexus. The whole tiered-nameplate phenomenon is, for the most part, unique to the American market, which is why Toyota launched Lexus in the first place.

 

So, the GS and IS are sold as Toyotas in other car markets-- it doesn't matter to the American car buyer, because those cars ARE NOT SOLD AS TOYOTAS IN THE UNITED STATES! ...And rightfully-so.

 

So, in the end, my point remains valid.

 

And, if Lincoln wants to be a serious competitor in the luxury car market, then the LS/7-series/S-Class segment would be a good thing to get into. HYUNDAI can do it, for crying out loud!

 

I don't know about you guys, but when I think "Lexus," the first thing that comes to mind is the LS (which is one reason why, I argue, Lexus has been far more successful than Infiniti or Acura). When I think "Mercedes-Benz," the first thing I think of is the S-Class. When I think Jaguar, I think of the XJ-Type and XK-Type. When I think "Audi," the first thing that comes to mind is the A8. The only exception to this rule is when I think "BMW" I think of the 3-series... which is still a prestigious offering. Point being, those marques have all cultivated an upscale image in my mind based on their PRODUCT. Not only do they have the marketing to make the assertion, but they also have the PRODUCT to back it up.

 

If Lincoln wants to cultivate an upscale image, they have to do far more than dress-up an Edge or Fusion and make the assertion "We're a luxury brand." That is, I believe, what the author of the article in question was getting at, and I agree with him whole-heartedly on that.

 

That image must be cultivated by PRODUCT, not marketing, fancy interiors in economy cars, and catch-phrases.

Edited January 11, 2012 by calypsocoral

[NickF1011]

And, if Lincoln wants to be a serious competitor in the luxury car market, then the LS/7-series/S-Class segment would be a good thing to get into. HYUNDAI can do it, for crying out loud!

 

Hyundai is selling ~1000 Genesis sedans a month. The Equus is selling even slower. And both at significant discounts to their competitors. Sure, they are in those segments, but you can't really say they are doing it particularly successfully at this point.

 

Also, based on your logic, if Ford were to export the MKZ to a market where the Fusion is not sold, it would somehow be a more worthy luxury vehicle?

Edited January 11, 2012 by NickF1011

[akirby]

I don't know about you guys, but when I think "Lexus," the first thing that comes to mind is the LS (which is one reason why, I argue, Lexus has been far more successful than Infiniti or Acura). When I think "Mercedes-Benz," the first thing I think of is the S-Class. When I think Jaguar, I think of the XJ-Type and XK-Type. When I think "Audi," the first thing that comes to mind is the A8.

 

I don't think of any of those first - I think of the more commonly seen models first. A8 is the last Audi most people would think of (for me it's R8, A5, A4, TT).

 

If Lincoln wants to cultivate an upscale image, they have to do far more than dress-up an Edge or Fusion and make the assertion "We're a luxury brand."

 

Well duh. This would have been a good point to make 3 years ago. But Lincoln has not only announced plans for unique vehicles and upgraded dealership experiences they've taken actions - like hiring a team of over 100 people dedicated to turning Lincoln around and having a dedicated design staff (and killing Mercury - don't dismiss that commitment).

 

This is akin to a sports team saying "what we used to do isn't working so we're going in a new direction with a new coach and some new players" and having sports reporters say "this team will never go anywhere if they keep doing what they're doing."

 

 

By the way - if you take the MKZ concept and super-size it the new MKS, throw in a base 3.7L DI 330 hp engine with a 400 hp 3.5L ecoboost optional engine and standard AWD - why wouldn't that compete with the S class, LS and other full sized vehicles? Those aren't exactly canyon carvers - they're more about luxury appointments and size than handling.

[MKII]

Wow , Toyota has really done a number on some people in the USA. To say Lexus platforms are not related to Toyota platforms is almost as ridiculous as the dim wit who wrote the

Lincoln article on Jalopnik or whatever the stupid website name is.

 

Amazing that the author of the Lincoln piece was stupid enough to stick his neck out to look like an absolute fool writing what he/she did.

Lets see who is else in the USA car journalist camp is foolish enough to make themselves look stupid, trying to make the old "twins" comparison.

[retro-man]

The influences are obvious. The taillights borrowed from the Rapide, the rear greenhouse lifted by the A7, and the grille modeled after Snidely Whiplash's Mustache — all mashed into the body of a Toyota Camry.

 

I dont care if you agree with the conclusion or not: that's great snarkalism! Personally, I think the car looks great. However, I think the new Fusion looks super hot too from what I've seen so far. If I were out shopping and there were a $10k price differential, which there probably is, I'd be thinking long and hard. I don't think the Toyota / Lexus comparison is exactly on mark, and you can thank generations of broken-springed, pine-tree scented, valve-clicking, airport Towncars for that - as has been pointed out.

[RichardJensen]

Actually, I'm not impressed by it. At least not as the output of an alleged professional.

 

Wert and his ilk justify contempt for the media with nearly every word they type.

 

I mean, seriously, what does that column bring to the table? It's a rant that is barely more erudite than what one finds on forums like this every day.

 

If you're going to get paid to write, for pete's sake, can you please write something worth reading?

[silvrsvt]

If you're going to get paid to write, for pete's sake, can you please write something worth reading?

 

Thats the problem, news doesn't sell... sensationalism does

[RichardJensen]

I know, but even as sensationalism that article sucked.

 

It was a Mattscreed which could've been exchanged with any of the comments posted below it and no one would've noticed.

 

In short, it was amateurish garbage.