Versa-Tech Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Ford Performance Racing in OZ has a great picture gallery: http://www.fpr.com.au/category/photo-gallery/ Wow, real opening doors; NASCAR hasn't done this in 50+ years. Just an observation; I think the differences is marketing between AV8SC and Nascar quite ironic, the former using homologated "SuperCars" which are nothing more than race modified street sedans, the latter using purpose-built "StockCars" that are vynil-wrapped with faux headlights to appear as if they're based on street sedans. Does anybody remember when the dodge crew goofed up on the transition from the charger to the challenger car... LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 The big issue is the greenhouse: The last big change to the green house was nearly 12 years ago...and the update in 2000 wasn't a huge change from what was found on the 1990 Falcon (IMO) The greenhouse/shell was changed in 2008, the hrear roof section was extended further rearwards, increasing rear passenger head room and at this time Falcon was given EUCD slim door tech and rraming courtesy of Ford Europe while they were developing the new Mondeo. The current Falcon and Mondeo live side by side on Australian show rooms, they are coherent and well suited for that market, trying to put that Falcon styling on US showrooms won't work but I have a feeling that those opinions might change drastically when the 20014 update is revealed... Sure Falcon is a car built on a tight budget for a small market, but tie its evolution into other vehicles and suppliers and the game changes completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionel Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 "Sophisticaed" is still a qualitative term; without objective criteria, it's all opinion. Language semantics aside, I think you knew what I meant. Its suspensions are of a newer design and offer several quantitative benefits. Happy? That's a neat trick, inventing something nine years after Ford started producing it... My mistake, I meant the Coupe Utility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 The current Falcon and Mondeo live side by side on Australian show rooms, they are coherent and well suited for that market, trying to put that Falcon styling on US showrooms won't work but I have a feeling that those opinions might change drastically when the 20014 update is revealed... Sure Falcon is a car built on a tight budget for a small market, but tie its evolution into other vehicles and suppliers and the game changes completely. Thats the issue, does Ford commit to the program and spend the money to make it a world beater? Can the platform be made into a world class platform that can sell for another 10-15 years with just updates to it? I'm not sure how old the Falcon platform is..but the Mustang does have an advantage of having a platform that is less then 10 years old and will get a major update in the next 2 years that fixes the "issues" that it has that where artificially put back into it because of cost. How does a Falcon fit into the North American showroom...or even China or EU? A Lincoln based off it would be nice, but would it make money? I see the Falcon platform only doing about 75K between Ford and Lincoln in NA, if the economy is good etc. Would be the basis of a Lincoln flagship (Continental) and a Ford flagship sedan that would slot in above the Taurus, call it a Thunderbird? Maybe even offer a fully retractable roof? Or at the least a roof like the MKZ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 How does a Falcon fit into the North American showroom...or even China or EU? A Lincoln based off it would be nice, but would it make money? I see the Falcon platform only doing about 75K between Ford and Lincoln in NA, if the economy is good etc. Would be the basis of a Lincoln flagship (Continental) and a Ford flagship sedan that would slot in above the Taurus, call it a Thunderbird? Maybe even offer a fully retractable roof? Or at the least a roof like the MKZ? WIth the Taurus pushing $50K at the top end, there really isn't any room for a sedan above it in the Ford line-up, IMHO (yeah, they sell $60K trucks, but those are a different beast entirely). Lincoln could, eventually, use a flagship sedan over the MKS, but there's probably not enough volume to justify the development costs. The only way I could see that working would be to move the Taurus itself to a RWD architecture. (Besides, Thuderbird is a coupe, not a sedan, the Town Landau notwithstanding. ) A Mustang-based coupe for Lincoln makes more sense, as it could, in theory, co-exist in the price ranges of the MKZ and MKS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 WIth the Taurus pushing $50K at the top end, there really isn't any room for a sedan above it in the Ford line-up, IMHO (yeah, they sell $60K trucks, but those are a different beast entirely). Lincoln could, eventually, use a flagship sedan over the MKS, but there's probably not enough volume to justify the development costs. The only way I could see that working would be to move the Taurus itself to a RWD architecture. (Besides, Thuderbird is a coupe, not a sedan, the Town Landau notwithstanding. ) A loaded SHO is about 47K or so...not 50K...and you can get a nice Taurus for 30-35K with no problems. The "Thunderbird" would start from there and top out at 55K or so. Theres also been plenty of 4 seat T-birds to show precedent into making it a Sedan type car (thus the suggestion of the roof like the MKZ has)...not to mention the Thunderbird is too good of a name Not to be using. Doesn't have to sell in huge numbers either...maybe 25-40K a year...coupled with Lincoln Flagship sales it would be around 50-60K units a year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 A loaded SHO is about 47K or so...not 50K...and you can get a nice Taurus for 30-35K with no problems. The "Thunderbird" would start from there and top out at 55K or so. Theres also been plenty of 4 seat T-birds to show precedent into making it a Sedan type car (thus the suggestion of the roof like the MKZ has)...not to mention the Thunderbird is too good of a name Not to be using. Well, it's closer to $48K, which is "pushing $50K," IMHO. The SHO starts at just under $40K (not counting incentives), so you're going to have a lot of overlap in the large performance sedan if you start pricing an RWD at that point. And this is 2012, not 1941--a "coupe" is a two-door car, whether it has two or four seats. I agree with it being too good of a name to waste, but it doesn't belong on a sedan (four-door), IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Well, it's closer to $48K, which is "pushing $50K," IMHO. The SHO starts at just under $40K (not counting incentives), so you're going to have a lot of overlap in the large performance sedan if you start pricing an RWD at that point. And this is 2012, not 1941--a "coupe" is a two-door car, whether it has two or four seats. I agree with it being too good of a name to waste, but it doesn't belong on a sedan (four-door), IMHO. I'm not sure what the market is for a car like that, but I'm looking at the Thunderbird sedan as a halo car...your pointing out the issues WHY a Falcon wouldn't be a good fit in the US market. I'm trying to be creative to show how it could possibily fit into the lineup How about a 4 door coupe ala the VW CC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Here's another Oz Falcon V-8. This one's a 7.3 Powerstroke diesel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 seeing the car in its heroic livery might engender some excitement towards it You have to understand, the US is, by population, the third largest in the world, behind China and India. It is roughly fifteen times more populous than Australia. This event offers almost zero opportunity for traction for the Falcon nameplate or the idea of a RWD Ford in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) I'm trying to be creative to show how it could possibily fit into the lineup Well, here's a question--what if they replaced the MKS with something built on an updated Falcon platform? Would the sales volume be enough to help the Falcon, and, conversely, would the loss of sales volume be enough to hurt the D4/CD4/whichever platform? Heck, what would happen if both the Taurus and MKS ended up on this magical RWD platform? Edited September 12, 2012 by SoonerLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionel Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Well, here's a question--what if they replaced the MKS with something built on an updated Falcon platform? Would the sales volume be enough to help the Falcon, and, conversely, would the loss of sales volume be enough to hurt the D4/CD4/whichever platform? Heck, what would happen if both the Taurus and MKS ended up on this magical RWD platform? Would make more sense than a bloated, blunter, dowdier stretch-Fusion. Hopefully someone has the cajones to put RWD Taurus forward. The big issue is the greenhouse: 1990 Falcon: 1995 Falcon 2000 Falcon 2005 Falcon 2012 Falcon The last big change to the green house was nearly 12 years ago...and the update in 2000 wasn't a huge change from what was found on the 1990 Falcon (IMO) I like the greenhouse, you can actually SEE out the windows, and the visibilty is great, unlike the stupid wedge trend with the upwards tapering beltline. J Mays has recently said that trend is dying anyhow. Edited September 13, 2012 by Lionel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Hopefully someone has the cajones to put RWD Taurus forward. Why? There is ZERO prescient for a RWD Taurus. Anyways....Falcon isn't that much larger inside then the upcoming Fusion/Modeno Falcon Front - Head room 1,012 Front - Hip room 1,486 Front - Leg room 1,073 Front - Shoulder room 1,523 Rear - Head room 989 Rear - Leg room 989 Rear - Shoulder room 1,518 Mondeo/Fusion Front - Head room 995.68 Front - Hip room 1397 Front - Leg room 1125.22 Front - Shoulder room 1468.12 Rear - Head room 1381.76 Rear - Leg room 960.12 Rear - Shoulder room 1445.26 There only about an inch (~25mm) or 1 1/2 inch difference...if that between them Either one of them would have to be extended/widened up to become a D car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionel Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 Why? There is ZERO prescient for a RWD Taurus. Anyways....Falcon isn't that much larger inside then the upcoming Fusion/Modeno There only about an inch (~25mm) or 1 1/2 inch difference...if that between them It shouldn't be ANY roomier, with the supposed packaging benefits of an FWD platform! Pretty sure its roomier than Taurus too! Having said that, if Ford has no choice but use an FWD platform, then I hope they make it as much of a drivers car as possible (and I say that through gritted teeth), and make it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Why? There is ZERO prescient for a RWD Taurus. Why does there need to be a precedent for that? T-Birds are 2-doors and SHOs are Taurii, but those are vehicles with fanatical followers to be alienated. There's nothing that says a Taurus has to be FWD. And what happened to being creative in finding a way to fit it into the lineup? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 and I say that through gritted teeth You know what you need to do? You need to look at how Toyota has eaten Ford's lunch in Australia with FWD non-drivers cars, and then ask yourself whether *your* priorities are representative of the market as a whole in Australia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I see room for a CD4 FWD/AWD Taurus family car and a RWD performance sedan. Two different audiences and you can even keep the SHO Taurus based. Now whether the RWD performance sedan should be a Ford or a Lincoln or both and whether there is enough of a market to make it viable depends on a lot of variables including the platform strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 You know what you need to do? You need to look at how Toyota has eaten Ford's lunch in Australia with FWD non-drivers cars, and then ask yourself whether *your* priorities are representative of the market as a whole in Australia. The point is that Toyota's dominance in Australia has to more with offering a complete range of vehicles It's less to do with Falcon and Territory and more to do with lack of supply of all the other vehicles needed to compete with Toyota's range. In those segments that are popular, Ford struggles to get decent supply of vehicles from Thailand or FoE. It's really frustrating because Falcon and Territory are still valuable income streams but getting new imported products to dealers in the right product mix and quantities seems to be a logistical nightmare.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 That's pretty much my point. Focusing on the Falcon, and what Ford needs to do to it, and not do to it, ignores the real, overarching problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I see room for a CD4 FWD/AWD Taurus family car and a RWD performance sedan. Two different audiences and you can even keep the SHO Taurus based. Now whether the RWD performance sedan should be a Ford or a Lincoln or both and whether there is enough of a market to make it viable depends on a lot of variables including the platform strategy. Here's a clue, Falcon already uses EUCD slim door and frame technology, if Falcon kept evolving towards CD4 by adopting a version of its wiring harness, it could pick up all the neat features currently available in the US. Unseen things like HVAC systems, suspensions and shared power trains from other Ford vehicles would make Falcon a viable collaboration of parts. Some look at the body work and write Falcon off but that current styling was heavily influenced by last generation European Kinetic design, with new styling coming for 2014, the Falcon's look will change completely and could sit alongside Fusion on the showroom floor - that's the key in all of this, the next falcon has to take into consideration a much broader audience and also all the existing engineering systems already available that can be used to keep costs down. A Ford Performance Vehicles chief was recently quoted as saying LHD version of Falcon would cost around $80 million, I'm sure our government would be prepared to pick up most of that check if it meant establishing a viable export market... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) That's pretty much my point. Focusing on the Falcon, and what Ford needs to do to it, and not do to it, ignores the real, overarching problem. Exactly, the fans knee jerk at FoA's change of emphasis towards, Focus and Ranger and Territory as an abandonment of Falcon but that's not true, Ford has commited to Falcon for another four years, don't know if any other division would make such a pledge that far in front. More than ever, the concept of "One Ford" is making Falcon and Territory viable for Australia. Would you build new plants for low numbers? no but managing existing facilities with smaller volumes is quite possible and worst case, switching production to that new big plant in Thailand could keep them alive. FoA is a small market, so long as the books remaining in the black, I think head office will allow them to continue offering different types of vehicles, it's interesting to see upgrades continuing at the assembly plant when so much negativity abounds, the actions don't match the words... Edited September 13, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Anyways, no one that matters in Ford is talking imported Falcon, the best we can hope for is regional Asia replacing Mondeo. 2.0 Ecoboost Falcon gets almost identical fuel economy to 2.0 Ecoboost Mondeo, now if we can use more CD4 bits in Falcon it may become Asia's regional large car...fingers crossed.. Edited September 13, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainp4 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I know I've said this plenty of times on here, but I don't see why the platform can't underpin a whole range of RWD Lincolns and/or Fords. Medium to large cars for Lincoln, medium to large Lincoln SUVs, and one of each for Ford (car/suv) could replace Taurus and Explorer eventually, for police duty and civilian versions. Couldn't possibly be any heavier than d3/4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) I know I've said this plenty of times on here, but I don't see why the platform can't underpin a whole range of RWD Lincolns and/or Fords. Medium to large cars for Lincoln, medium to large Lincoln SUVs, and one of each for Ford (car/suv) could replace Taurus and Explorer eventually, for police duty and civilian versions. Couldn't possibly be any heavier than d3/4. One possible thought is a parallel development with next gen Taurus where Falcon remains RWD but uses "One Ford" suspension and power trains while the upper body structure becomes a blending of Taurus CD4 components from electrical wiring and switches down to trim and glass. This is only a theory but would enable Ford Asia Pacific to access a vehicle in their own region that fill their big car needs. Edited September 14, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Amazing how one insignificant race in Texas next year can raise a storm and bring out such polarizing views on the Falcon ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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