akirby Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I'd be a fool Well you got that part right. Look - nobody here is saying that what Lincoln is doing will be successful. But if you don't see what's different and how it *could* be successful then you simply don't want to see it. When Fordbuyer is the only one agreeing with you - you should be very worried. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) I think what people want to hear is that Lincoln is developing a RWD platform and building everything off of that platform and is now its' own independent car-maker taking on the world. They do not want to hear Lincoln is being fiscally conservative and incremental and essentially carrying-on with what appears to be business as usual (badge engineering with better marketing). I don't know what is going to happen this time, but I have a hard time believing the new MKZ is the wrong direction when it's so innovative and unique in a me-too segment. Lincoln is hardly phoning this in, they aim to standout . Edited November 5, 2012 by BORG 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) Instead of focusng on what Lincoln did wrong in the past, how about we look at all the proper preparatory moves that Ford is agreeing to like design studios, dedicated financing, improving dealership presentation and customer service - the whole Lincoln experience. Yes, new vehicles are the last step in that transformation but if Ford is serious about changing Lincoln's image, a ground up change is needed. It's probably the reason why every other half baked attempt failed, Ford either does this with 100% committment and financing or not at all. I have a hunch that somewhere down the track, that Ford is going to realize that more money and dedicated platforms will be needed to complete the evolution to true Luxury status but that "One Ford" is still essential to making that happen. Edited November 5, 2012 by jpd80 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) ..... Edited November 5, 2012 by 2b2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Frankly, I think those who fail to see any difference in Fords commitment to Lincoln, are lazy. At this juncture, sagacious would be a more accurate adjective to describe such folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 At this juncture, sagacious would be a more accurate adjective to describe such folks. Absolutely not. There is nothing keen or mentally astute about ignoring all of the differences in how Ford is handling Lincoln now vs in the past. It's ok to be skeptical as to whether it will work or not - that remains to be seen. To say that Ford is doing the same thing they've always done is ignorant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Ah. It's a new month. Time for everyone to say exactly what they think about Lincoln all over again. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Well you got that part right. Look - nobody here is saying that what Lincoln is doing will be successful. But if you don't see what's different and how it *could* be successful then you simply don't want to see it. When Fordbuyer is the only one agreeing with you - you should be very worried. And you're already there. I can put up facts and examples for everything I've said. The responses are speculation and criticism for essentially not being a drool-soaked bobble-headed yes man. Ford is greatly improved, but they killed their entry-lux brand and have historically been overly conservative with what's supposed to be the true luxury brand. They've recently put out press stating that they're going to stay conservative rather than trying to create buzz with halo products. Until the MKZ reviews are in-and unless they're stellar-it's a repackaging of all that's failed before, regardless who was stolen from Cadillac and how many stylists are in the new building. Until it's newsworthy, in the metal, and in the dealers...nothing has changed for the people actually buying the vehicles. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 And you're already there. I can put up facts and examples for everything I've said. The responses are speculation and criticism for essentially not being a drool-soaked bobble-headed yes man. Ford is greatly improved, but they killed their entry-lux brand and have historically been overly conservative with what's supposed to be the true luxury brand. They've recently put out press stating that they're going to stay conservative rather than trying to create buzz with halo products. Until the MKZ reviews are in-and unless they're stellar-it's a repackaging of all that's failed before, regardless who was stolen from Cadillac and how many stylists are in the new building. Until it's newsworthy, in the metal, and in the dealers...nothing has changed for the people actually buying the vehicles. Mercury was never entry-lux - it was just Fords with a different grille. Lincoln may never be what you want them to be but that doesn't mean they won't be successful. Lexus sold 13K FWD based luxury vehicles last month across 2 models. They only sold 6K RWD split across 6 vehicles. Lincoln is going after the high volume, high profit vehicles first. Why don't you just admit that you don't like Lincolns and move on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Why don't you just admit that you don't like Lincolns and move on? As a Ford investor, a greater concern to me than whether ZanatWork likes Lincolns or not is the fact that Ford Motor Company management does not like Lincoln and refuses to move on, based on the company's schizophrenic strategies for the brand historic and current. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 As a Ford investor, a greater concern to me than whether ZanatWork likes Lincolns or not is the fact that Ford Motor Company management does not like Lincoln and refuses to move on, based on the company's schizophrenic strategies for the brand historic and current. After Mulally took over there was only one focus - Ford. That continued until they made the decision to go ahead with a Lincoln revitalization which started with killing Mercury and hiring a dedicated design and other staff. That only happened recently and they have not waivered from that plan yet. So I don't understand the reference to previous plans because they were not nearly the same as the new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) the company's schizophrenic strategies for the brand historic and current. What is the company's 'current schizophrenic strategy'? Also, if uncomfortable with Ford's strategy, why not sell out, rather than continuing to hold and worry. Edited November 5, 2012 by RichardJensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Also, if uncomfortable with Ford's strategy, why not sell out, rather than continuing to hold and worry. Just gives him a reason to complain about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Also, if uncomfortable with Ford's strategy, why not sell out, rather than continuing to hold and worry. F still has good upside potential overall so that's why my net position in it is long, although I am ready to go short if appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 ...Until it's newsworthy, IN THE METAL, and IN the DEALERS...nothing has changed for the people actually buying the vehicles. ...It's ok to be skeptical as to whether it will work or not - that remains to be seen. To say that Ford is doing the same thing they've always done is ignorant. now this^ sounds like we agree more than anything else just pretending that I'm (also) from Missouri, I've got to see it on sale before it 'counts' As a Ford investor, a greater concern to me than whether ZanatWork likes Lincolns or not is the fact that Ford Motor Company management does not like Lincoln and refuses to move on, based on the company's schizophrenic strategies for the brand historic and current. What is the company's 'current schizophrenic strategy'?... ex: the grilles all 4 generations of them concurrently on sale soon (note: right now it's only 3 generations....doesn't count until the new Z arrives) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 What you see in Lincoln dealerships right now is not "the strategy". Even the MKZ doesn't fully represent the new "strategy". We haven't seen any vehicles developed yet under the "new strategy". So how can you proclaim the "new strategy" schizophrenic or the same old same old when you haven't even seen it yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Wash.................. rinse................... repeat. :rolleyes: Richard is right. It's a new month, and time for the same tired arguements to be heard. If/when MKZ is a success (you know, over 2000 per month, LOL), then the arguement will be "well, that is one car, where are the rest?? Until _________ gets here, it is business as usual for Lincoln and I don't believe any of it." This same arguement will then appear over and over, with every new vehicle, because Ford will not have Lincoln trying to be a BMW copy. Thank God. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) Wash.................. rinse................... repeat. :rolleyes: Richard is right. It's a new month, and time for the same tired arguements to be heard. If/when MKZ is a success (you know, over 2000 per month, LOL), then the arguement will be "well, that is one car, where are the rest?? Until _________ gets here, it is business as usual for Lincoln and I don't believe any of it." This same arguement will then appear over and over, with every new vehicle, because Ford will not have Lincoln trying to be a BMW copy. I'm so glad someone understands except/btw the Z averaged practically 2300 per month for 2011 over 2500pm for 2012 so far cough*reachhigher*cough btw2 a while ago Lincoln said they'd go for the Lux segment with the highest volume... ...that's the 3er & company just saying Edited November 5, 2012 by 2b2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 What you see in Lincoln dealerships right now is not "the strategy". Even the MKZ doesn't fully represent the new "strategy". We haven't seen any vehicles developed yet under the "new strategy". So how can you proclaim the "new strategy" schizophrenic or the same old same old when you haven't even seen it yet? How can you claim anything at all about it, with the very reasoning you have above? How can you even complain, at all, about naysaying Lincoln when the past is unimpressive and the future is all, again, speculation? You're arguing without any backable information. That's a stance born to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Wash.................. rinse................... repeat. :rolleyes: Richard is right. It's a new month, and time for the same tired arguements to be heard. If/when MKZ is a success (you know, over 2000 per month, LOL), then the arguement will be "well, that is one car, where are the rest?? Until _________ gets here, it is business as usual for Lincoln and I don't believe any of it." This same arguement will then appear over and over, with every new vehicle, because Ford will not have Lincoln trying to be a BMW copy. Thank God. Pretty sure I've repeatedly stated that if the MKZ gets reviews worthy of optimism, reviews showing it does have its own worthwhile personality compared to the Fusion...then I'd soften my stance, at the very least. Until then, it's the "same old tired points"...because it's the same old "new Lincoln strategy" until it bears tangible fruit. It's that whole desire for facts and real results, thing. I know some find it horribly unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 How can you claim anything at all about it, with the very reasoning you have above? How can you even complain, at all, about naysaying Lincoln when the past is unimpressive and the future is all, again, speculation? You're arguing without any backable information. That's a stance born to lose. Because it's not all speculation. It's a FACT that they killed Mercury and sold the other PAG brands. It's a FACT that they are utilizing unique sheetmetal, interiors and features like electronically controlled suspensions and retractable glass roofs. It's a FACT that they are changing the dealership experience. It's a FACT that they now have a dedicated staff of 150+ people who work on nothing but Lincoln including 100% of the vehicle design. Gloria is right. Even if the MKZ turns out great, you'll say that's just one vehicle and it still doesn't have a unique powertrain because the 3.7L is available in other vehicles. If Lincoln doesn't build what YOU want it to build they're a failure. We get it. Move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Said it before, said it again. This is the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, stated negatively. As Pauli said, 'it's not even wrong.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Because it's not all speculation. It's a FACT that they killed Mercury and sold the other PAG brands. It's a FACT that they are utilizing unique sheetmetal, interiors and features like electronically controlled suspensions and retractable glass roofs. It's a FACT that they are changing the dealership experience. It's a FACT that they now have a dedicated staff of 150+ people who work on nothing but Lincoln including 100% of the vehicle design. Gloria is right. Even if the MKZ turns out great, you'll say that's just one vehicle and it still doesn't have a unique powertrain because the 3.7L is available in other vehicles. If Lincoln doesn't build what YOU want it to build they're a failure. We get it. Move on. Gloria's opinion of me is of no consequence. Claiming to know the mind of someone likely over a thousand miles away is pure stupidity. I've cited truly stupid things you've said, but I don't claim to know what you'll say next...or how many sensations you'll get out of the next spy pics. So, Gloria is potentially stupid to make that statement...and if so, should consider getting a forehead tattoo to that effect as a warning to others. Selling the PAG brands was as much about impending financial pressure as it was anything else. Killing Mercury was the cheaper solution when compared to undoing years of some tragic mismanagement. The interiors, sheetmetal, and suspension tweaks haven't done anything near to separating the vehicles from their Ford origins. The dealership experience is a good step, but can also be checked on the "needed company evolution" box to keep up with other companies...and what possible good have the new hires proven to be until their work is actually seen, heard, felt, and driven? Nifty. They hired folks and put 'em in a new building. People fail at jobs every day, all across the world. I'm not assigning progress on-you should be used to this word by now, sparky-SPECULATION. The funniest thing to me, here...aside from the inane and essentially vacant counter posts from some involved in this...is that I'm EASIER on Lincoln than the buyers they need to sway, easier than the reviewers. Figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 The interiors, sheetmetal, and suspension tweaks haven't done anything near to separating the vehicles from their Ford origins. The dealership experience is a good step, but can also be checked on the "needed company evolution" box to keep up with other companies...and what possible good have the new hires proven to be until their work is actually seen, heard, felt, and driven? Nifty. They hired folks and put 'em in a new building. Gloria's conclusion that you will minimize anything Ford does in the future is based on your ongoing minimization of what Ford is doing at present. This is the very definition of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. "I'm not getting behind Lincoln until I see a *real* change." "They closed Mercury, and dedicated those resources to Lincoln." "That's not a change. They did that because they couldn't bail out Mercury." "They are giving Lincoln products 100% unique sheet metal" "That's not a real change. You can still tell they're based on Ford products." "They're giving Lincoln products unique suspensions, unique luxury options." "That's not enough." "They've hired 150 people to work exclusively on Lincoln." "That's not enough. People fail all the time." "They're revamping the dealer experience." "That's not real change. That's the least that can be expected." ----- This furnishes abundant, ABUNDANT evidence from which we can predict that no future action regarding Lincoln will satisfy you. This is because, whether you wish to admit it or not, your opposition to Lincoln is not based on rational analysis. It is an a priori objection that is molded to whatever argument is opposed to it. This is why it is pointless to try to convince you. It is also why, you, failing to be convinced, will conclude that the arguments marshaled against you are unpersuasive and deficient. It is not because the arguments would fail to convince a reasonable person with no preconceived notions. The arguments are unpersuasive to you, because you are determined not to be persuaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 If you think that I'm being unfair in my 'No True Scotsman' criticisms, then please set forth a list of specific (not general) things that you require of Lincoln. Saying "different from Ford products" doesn't work because then you can always say, 'not different enough.' Saying "unique powertrains" doesn't work because you can always say, "That's just ______, bored/stroked out. That's not unique." etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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