Phelan Talks About Lincoln

[ZanatWork]

Gloria's conclusion that you will minimize anything Ford does in the future is based on your ongoing minimization of what Ford is doing at present.

 

Gloria's summation is conjecture and stupidity, no matter how you try to decorate it.

 

This is the very definition of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

 

*Yawn* True Norseman, actually.

 

"I'm not getting behind Lincoln until I see a *real* change."

 

Yes, as in something that looks, feels, and drives like something beyond a gussied-up Ford. This is not just me, this is far too many reviews across the landscape. The current showroom lineup bears out the criticism very clearly.

 

"They closed Mercury, and dedicated those resources to Lincoln."

 

And, I've argued, the same approaches...which is part of criticism, for those without attention spans.

 

"That's not a change. They did that because they couldn't bail out Mercury."

 

That's not even close, in words or meaning, to what I said about the matter. Using fiction to make your points is basically being a liar, Richard.

 

"They are giving Lincoln products 100% unique sheet metal"

 

That isn't a big deal if the metal doesn't succeed and differentiate stylistically. I also point out that the unique sheet metal isn't in the dealers yet, and my arguments deal with WHAT IS.

 

"That's not a real change. You can still tell they're based on Ford products."

 

If they look too much like Fords, we get to read and listen to a few dozen more reviewers saying to buy the "optioned-out Fusion/Taurus" like we've had recently. This SHOULD be a concern.

 

"They're giving Lincoln products unique suspensions, unique luxury options."

 

Yeah, Buick gets those over Chevy, too, so...

 

"That's not enough."

 

...for a "luxury marque"...it's not.

 

"They've hired 150 people to work exclusively on Lincoln."

 

150 people whose work is still essentially unseen...

 

"That's not enough. People fail all the time."

 

Which is correct, but the point is that WE HAVEN'T SEEN A RESULT YET. HOW IS THIS NOT CLEAR?!?!?

 

"They're revamping the dealer experience."

 

Pretty much mandatory since Lexus upped the bar ages ago.

 

"That's not real change. That's the least that can be expected."

 

At least, if Lincoln wants to compete, even at that level, with its claimed chosen competitors.

 

-----

 

This furnishes abundant, ABUNDANT evidence from which we can predict that no future action regarding Lincoln will satisfy you.

 

Nope, it furnishes agonizing proof that I'm not assigning success ahead of the product...as I've now proven, within your own babble.

 

This is because, whether you wish to admit it or not, your opposition to Lincoln is not based on rational analysis. It is an a priori objection that is molded to whatever argument is opposed to it.

 

That is incorrect, and you're showing your continuing hack-tastic job of being a "yes man" toward Ford. You utterly ignore the core of my point, which is that there's new rhetoric, and new stuff COMING...but how good, how different, etc. has YET TO BE DETERMINED. THE YEARS OF VERY UNINSPIRING RESULTS ARE PART OF THE POINT...THERE MUST BE CHANGE WORTHY OF LAURELS TO ACHIEVE LAURELS.

 

This is why it is pointless to try to convince you.

 

Actually, you're proving to be a complete hypocrite. You're at least as determined to assume my positions as you claim I am to have the ones you (largely wrongly) assign to me. Welcome to being full of crap. See my advice regarding a forehead tattoo to another poster.

 

It is also why, you, failing to be convinced, will conclude that the arguments marshaled against you are unpersuasive and deficient.

 

I can meet every point, and can back them...whereas you are off-base on your assumptions and your interpretations. You're easily proving yourself utterly and completely guilty of what you assign to me, while being wrong about me in the process.

 

It is not because the arguments would fail to convince a reasonable person with no preconceived notions.

 

If a "reasonable person" is now someone that requires no tangible proof, your definition of reasonable is utterly incorrect...or, y'know, a lie.

 

The arguments are unpersuasive to you, because you are determined not to be persuaded.

 

The arguments are coming from the wrong angle, attacking the wrong part of my argument while being as closed-minded as you claim I am, and I've stated repeatedly and openly that I hope the first fruits of the new laborers, the MKZ, does bring change. To assume I've already formulated my opinion on the matter is not just incorrect, but a full-on (and, if you read my posts without your misguided assumptions) a full-on lie. You should consider asking to be banned.

[ZanatWork]

If you think that I'm being unfair in my 'No True Scotsman' criticisms, then please set forth a list of specific (not general) things that you require of Lincoln.

 

Saying "different from Ford products" doesn't work because then you can always say, 'not different enough.'

 

Saying "unique powertrains" doesn't work because you can always say, "That's just ______, bored/stroked out. That's not unique."

 

etc.

 

Your entire response is based on assumptions of my positions, which is bullshit in no uncertain terms. You, by your own description of tactics, have simply stated "you'll just always say bad things because that's how it's seen in Richard's mind". The hypocrisy here is...astounding.

 

You pre-suppose all my responses...while getting on me for pre-supposition!

 

You're completely shaming yourself, how can't you see that? No matter how many times I've stated, clearly, that I'm awaiting the new reviews...not that I'm already damning the new reviews...you're lying, stating you know my mind (we've never met, as you know), and just generalizing me when I've posted in all moods and in all ways on this board for something over a decade. I DEFENDED the initial Fusion from at least one snotty union guy, I've called everything exactly as I've seen it.

 

For a hell of a long time. You've seen most or all of it.

 

Generalizing me as you have is full-on ridiculous, dishonest, and to no gain for anyone whatsoever. I don't know what's been your issue this year, but get help...therapy...maybe a pet, if you can keep from pre-writing its actions.

 

This is quite a ways past stupid. I have years of disgust with Lincoln, years of earned skepticism...but I've also been plain that I'm awaiting the upcoming reviews. If you can prove, with footage of us speaking, that I've claimed to have pre-written my MKZ observations...I'll leave the board after a post claiming you to be absolutely correct.

 

As you know that footage does not exist, so I think you should admit you do NOT personally know me, are generalizing, and essentially proving yourself to be a pathetic liar. That would show some small accountability.

[RichardJensen]

Try to follow:

 

Your argument is: "I will support Ford's course, once I see evidence of 'real' change."

 

The highlighted word, 'real', is the word upon which your logical fallacy turns.

 

 

By asserting that successive changes are not 'real' changes, you appear (to yourself) to have maintained logical consistency, in genuine 'no true Scotsman' fashion. However, as you have offered no definition of 'real' change other than, 'something other than what Ford is doing', then the only reasonable conclusion is that you are cloaking an irrational prejudice in the language of rationality.

 

---

 

You would be better off stating the explicit changes you want made, rather than reserving to yourself the illogical privilege of shouting down everything Ford does because it does not meet your ever shifting definition of 'real' change.

Edited November 5, 2012 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

As a favor, I'm going to color your ad hominems in blue, and your inaccurate statements in green. Straw-man arguments are purple.

 

Your entire response is based on assumptions of my positions, which is bullshit in no uncertain terms. You, by your own description of tactics, have simply stated "you'll just always say bad things because that's how it's seen in Richard's mind". The hypocrisy here is...astounding.

 

You pre-suppose all my responses...while getting on me for pre-supposition!

 

You're completely shaming yourself, how can't you see that? No matter how many times I've stated, clearly, that I'm awaiting the new reviews...not that I'm already damning the new reviews...you're lying, stating you know my mind (we've never met, as you know), and just generalizing me when I've posted in all moods and in all ways on this board for something over a decade. I DEFENDED the initial Fusion from at least one snotty union guy, I've called everything exactly as I've seen it.

 

For a hell of a long time. You've seen most or all of it.

 

Generalizing me as you have is full-on ridiculous, dishonest, and to no gain for anyone whatsoever. I don't know what's been your issue this year, but get help...therapy...maybe a pet, if you can keep from pre-writing its actions.

 

This is quite a ways past stupid. I have years of disgust with Lincoln, years of earned skepticism...but I've also been plain that I'm awaiting the upcoming reviews. If you can prove, with footage of us speaking, that I've claimed to have pre-written my MKZ observations...I'll leave the board after a post claiming you to be absolutely correct.

 

As you know that footage does not exist, so I think you should admit you do NOT personally know me, are generalizing, and essentially proving yourself to be a pathetic liar. That would show some small accountability.

Edited November 5, 2012 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

The only point in Zan's comments above, worth addressing:

 

"That's not even close, in words or meaning, to what I said about the matter. Using fiction to make your points is basically being a liar, Richard."

 

In response to this:

 

"That's not a change. They did that because they couldn't bail out Mercury."

 

Zan's earlier comments:

 

"Killing Mercury was the cheaper solution when compared to undoing years of some tragic mismanagement."

 

Thus, I propose this summary of Zan's attitude in place of the above:

 

"That's not a change. They did that because it was cheaper than bailing out Mercury."

 

----

 

What we see here is, however, the same pattern: A change at Ford that resulted in more funding for Lincoln is dismissed as insignificant due to an alternate theory, wherein Lincoln had nothing to do with the decision to close Mercury.

[ZanatWork]

Try to follow:

 

Your argument is: "I will support Ford's course, once I see evidence of 'real' change."

 

The highlighted word, 'real', is the word upon which your logical fallacy turns.

 

 

By asserting that successive changes are not 'real' changes, you appear (to yourself) to have maintained logical consistency, in genuine 'no true Scotsman' fashion. However, as you have offered no definition of 'real' change other than, 'something other than what Ford is doing', then the only reasonable conclusion is that you are cloaking an irrational prejudice in the language of rationality.

 

---

 

You would be better off stating the explicit changes you want made, rather than reserving to yourself the illogical privilege of shouting down everything Ford does because it does not meet your ever shifting definition of 'real' change.

 

You ignore my posts even as you hack on them...doing, I point out again, exactly what you accuse me of.

 

Real differentiation. A car mag recently pointed out the luxury car "experience" is an important part of what separates them from more common rides. Currently, driving the MKZ and MKS causes reviewers to mention the relationship to the "donor Fords", particularly in the case of the MKS. The MKX gets knocked for really being an obviously gussied Edge. The Nav...ah...well, was unfortunate in its latest iteration. Note that everything here, everything I've stated, is culminated-possibly averaged-from road tests along with my own dealership prowlings. Any informed driver can quickly see, feel, and fully experience the Ford under the Lincoln veneer, so to speak.

 

Obviously, that must change...or at least improve a great deal for Lincoln to step forward. I don't see this as an unreasonable statement.

 

So, I'm hoping (not the first time I've said that, despite your jack-assed genralizations) that the MKZ is described as a far better riding car, better driving altogether, and the reviewers as a whole can talk about its place as a luxury (or, let's be real, entry-luxury) vehicle more than they talk about "parts-shelf pieces, similar driving experience, etc". I want the tactile improvements to accomplish where the carryovers can't. I really want the car to make Lincoln mean something unto itself.

 

I WANT (again, a desire for positive result, which you'll ignore as liars do) the MKZ to step up and forward from its Fusion bones and set the stage for Lincoln to do the same with its place in the Ford camp...got it?

 

I know full well that it can't be utterly different than the Fusion...but I want the overall result to be remarkable and maybe worthy of making people talk the Fusion UP for being related to the MKZ.

 

That will mean materials, assembly, styling impressions (Robert Cumberford, call on line 2), but the overall drive above all else. For Lincoln to shake the perceptions of being leathered-up Fords and strictly for those about to die of old age...a big change is required in the full effect, the full experience of the vehicle.

 

I await your likely spin and ignoring of my points that don't fit in your narrow view with chocolaty breath (leftover Tootsie-Roll form Halloween).

[RichardJensen]

Real differentiation. A car mag recently pointed out the luxury car "experience" is an important part of what separates them from more common rides. Currently, driving the MKZ and MKS causes reviewers to mention the relationship to the "donor Fords", particularly in the case of the MKS. The MKX gets knocked for really being an obviously gussied Edge. The Nav...ah...well, was unfortunate in its latest iteration. Note that everything here, everything I've stated, is culminated-possibly averaged-from road tests along with my own dealership prowlings. Any informed driver can quickly see, feel, and fully experience the Ford under the Lincoln veneer, so to speak.

....

So, I'm hoping (not the first time I've said that, despite your jack-assed genralizations) that the MKZ is described as a far better riding car, better driving altogether, and the reviewers as a whole can talk about its place as a luxury (or, let's be real, entry-luxury) vehicle more than they talk about "parts-shelf pieces, similar driving experience, etc". I want the tactile improvements to accomplish where the carryovers can't. I really want the car to make Lincoln mean something unto itself.

Now we're getting somewhere:

 

1 - how will you determine if a review is 'positive'?

 

2 - what percentage of 'positive' reviews do you require to determine that the "reviewers as a whole" are positive?

 

3 - how much weight will you assign your own "dealership prowlings"?

 

Because, see, if you haven't figured this out ahead of time, you're still making it up as you go along. What is to prevent you from seizing on a single dismissive review and over-weighting it vs. any number of positive reviews? Or arbitrarily saying that a particular review isn't positive because it includes *some* criticism?

I WANT (again, a desire for positive result, which you'll ignore as liars do) the MKZ to step up and forward from its Fusion bones and set the stage for Lincoln to do the same with its place in the Ford camp...got it?

What does this even mean?

 

This is just rhetoric.

I know full well that it can't be utterly different than the Fusion...but I want the overall result to be remarkable and maybe worthy of making people talk the Fusion UP for being related to the MKZ.

Again, this is just rhetoric. 'talk up the Fusion for being related to the MKZ'?

 

Is it a criteria for 'success' that you hear, or hear reliable first hand reports of people 'talking up' the Fusion due to its connections to the MKZ?

That will mean materials, assembly, styling impressions (Robert Cumberford, call on line 2), but the overall drive above all else.

And, again, who is to be the judge of this?

 

Basically, your posts are long on rhetoric, which you expect us to treat as logical argumentation (which it is not), and where you do use logic, it is often phrased in a way that hedges, and leaves your options open for future criticisms.

 

In short, you won't bind yourself to any standards of proof, while demanding proof.

[2b2]

...A change at Ford that resulted in more funding for Lincoln is dismissed as insignificant due to an alternate theory, wherein Lincoln had nothing to do with the decision to close Mercury.

? /

[ZanatWork]

Now we're getting somewhere:

 

1 - how will you determine if a review is 'positive'?

 

2 - what percentage of 'positive' reviews do you require to determine that the "reviewers as a whole" are positive?

 

3 - how much weight will you assign your own "dealership prowlings"?

 

Because, see, if you haven't figured this out ahead of time, you're still making it up as you go along. What is to prevent you from seizing on a single dismissive review and over-weighting it vs. any number of positive reviews? Or arbitrarily saying that a particular review isn't positive because it includes *some* criticism?

 

What does this even mean?

 

This is just rhetoric.

 

Again, this is just rhetoric. 'talk up the Fusion for being related to the MKZ'?

 

Is it a criteria for 'success' that you hear, or hear reliable first hand reports of people 'talking up' the Fusion due to its connections to the MKZ?

 

And, again, who is to be the judge of this?

 

Basically, your posts are long on rhetoric, which you expect us to treat as logical argumentation (which it is not), and where you do use logic, it is often phrased in a way that hedges, and leaves your options open for future criticisms.

 

In short, you won't bind yourself to any standards of proof, while demanding proof.

 

Actually, you specifically and repeatedly refuse to accept my explanations, which is like stamping your feet and screaming "LA LA LA LA" so you don't have to open your mind to the possibility that I'm not just hacking on Lincoln due to a desire or sick pleasure. You insist that black is white, and that I apparently am incapable of hoping for the best despite years of rhetoric and stale results.

 

Again, you're being at least as closed-minded as you claim I am...but in my years of posting here, I've been capable of (gasp) more than one mood. Hell, I had an article up years back.

 

I'll judge what's positive by the reviews as a large pool rather than singling out MT's or C/D's. I'll wander down to my local dealership (just moved very close to one) and get my own impressions. I'll then compile all this information, along with my years in the auto biz, and have an informed opinion. I'll certainly be weighing the reviews vs. my personal take...and the reviewers themselves will be scrutinized, as I've certainly watched various favorites jump from publication to publication.

 

Is any part of this unclear? Will you assign another excuse to try assigning some fictional need to hate the brand on me, or can we be done with Ricky's World of Fiction, now?

 

If not...well, the little notifications that people like my posts in this thread are kind of fun to get.

[Extreme4x4]

I will offer this in advance.

 

Every single review of the MKZ will talk incessantly about its connection to the Fusion. This is guaranteed. Every nuance of the driving experience will be compared with the Fusion, as will all materials an design choices. This is due to the fact that Lincoln is the new whipping boy of automotive journalism.

 

Thus, if you are hanging your hat on said reviews, be prepared to be underwhelmed.

 

BTW, Nsap of GMI has already reviewed the new suspension, and states that it is amazing, and truly creates an entirely different driving experience for Lincoln. Basically, it is a system that can be everything to everyone, and the different settings truly create different feels, as it not only changes the typical damping................. but also everything involved in the driving experience. From steering feel, to engine sound. However, I am sure that this does not count, as Nsap is not a paid journalistic hack who has to create sensationalism to sell paper.

 

Also, do note that nowhere in my post did I call you stupid, or state that you should have stupid stamped upon your forehead. However, I thank you for the compliments and adult conversation.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Extreme4x4

[RichardJensen]

Actually, you specifically and repeatedly refuse to accept my explanations

Your 'explanations' are empty rhetoric and unanswerable.

[RichardJensen]

I'll judge what's positive by the reviews as a large pool rather than singling out MT's or C/D's. I'll wander down to my local dealership (just moved very close to one) and get my own impressions. I'll then compile all this information, along with my years in the auto biz, and have an informed opinion. I'll certainly be weighing the reviews vs. my personal take...and the reviewers themselves will be scrutinized, as I've certainly watched various favorites jump from publication to publication.

So, basically, what you're saying is that you'll form an *opinion*, and then insist that it is *fact*.

[akirby]

So, basically, what you're saying is that you'll form an *opinion*, and then insist that it is *fact*.

 

Bingo.

 

And anyone who disagrees is stupid.

[FordBuyer]

Actually, you specifically and repeatedly refuse to accept my explanations, which is like stamping your feet and screaming "LA LA LA LA" so you don't have to open your mind to the possibility that I'm not just hacking on Lincoln due to a desire or sick pleasure. You insist that black is white, and that I apparently am incapable of hoping for the best despite years of rhetoric and stale results.

 

Again, you're being at least as closed-minded as you claim I am...but in my years of posting here, I've been capable of (gasp) more than one mood. Hell, I had an article up years back.

 

I'll judge what's positive by the reviews as a large pool rather than singling out MT's or C/D's. I'll wander down to my local dealership (just moved very close to one) and get my own impressions. I'll then compile all this information, along with my years in the auto biz, and have an informed opinion. I'll certainly be weighing the reviews vs. my personal take...and the reviewers themselves will be scrutinized, as I've certainly watched various favorites jump from publication to publication.

 

Is any part of this unclear? Will you assign another excuse to try assigning some fictional need to hate the brand on me, or can we be done with Ricky's World of Fiction, now?

 

If not...well, the little notifications that people like my posts in this thread are kind of fun to get.

 

On here, it's the BOF Mafia who are complete and utter cheerleaders in the extreme and Ford bashers in general who have to be be discredited/attacked. There is no middle ground even if you drive a Ford and have always driven a Ford. That is meaningless, you have to be a cheerleader or be attacked if not. So you have to believe that Lincoln will someday be a world class luxury brand no matter how dismal the sales become like last month. Other than new MKZ and promise of seven new or refreshed vehicles, you are supposed to be this cheerleader believer. In other words, blind faith with not even concepts to see of where Lincoln is going. All we have is 5,000 sales in October, and MCE'd MKS and MKT sinking in sales. Even the MKX is getting a bit soft in sales. It's harder to be optimistic with these results. Sorry cheerleaders. I'm not saying Lincoln can't come back, just the road back is tougher with each passing month of sales. At some point prospective customers and probably already have based upon these low sales, have to wonder if Lincoln brand is sustainable enough to plunk down big bucks for Lincoln model. Assuredy, the BOF Mafia is NOT.

[NickF1011]

On here, it's the BOF Mafia who are complete and utter cheerleaders in the extreme and Ford bashers in general who have to be be discredited/attacked. There is no middle ground even if you drive a Ford and have always driven a Ford. That is meaningless, you have to be a cheerleader or be attacked if not. So you have to believe that Lincoln will someday be a world class luxury brand no matter how dismal the sales become like last month. Other than new MKZ and promise of seven new or refreshed vehicles, you are supposed to be this cheerleader believer. In other words, blind faith with not even concepts to see of where Lincoln is going. All we have is 5,000 sales in October, and MCE'd MKS and MKT sinking in sales. Even the MKX is getting a bit soft in sales. It's harder to be optimistic with these results. Sorry cheerleaders. I'm not saying Lincoln can't come back, just the road back is tougher with each passing month of sales. At some point prospective customers and probably already have based upon these low sales, have to wonder if Lincoln brand is sustainable enough to plunk down big bucks for Lincoln model. Assuredy, the BOF Mafia is NOT.

 

OKAY.

[aneekr]

This is due to the fact that Lincoln is the new whipping boy of automotive journalism.

 

No, it's due to Ford Motor Company's incoherent strategies for the Lincoln brand.

[FordBuyer]

No, it's due to Ford Motor Company's incoherent strategies for the Lincoln brand.

 

The cheerleaders on here are in complete denial about present day sales and totally optimistic that it will be turned around 180 degrees, even though Ford is only spending $1 billion on seven new or refreshed vehicles. I think 100,000 sales/year is doable, but based upon what I've heard so far I don't see how anyone could be super optimisic. Much more has to be seen in the flesh, and IMO more money has to be invested. Next up is new small CUV at NAIAS. Lincoln is not showing it at L.A. Hopefully it will come in hybrid form and with conventional motor that is not found in Escape. Maybe the new 2.7 L V6.

[NickF1011]

The cheerleaders on here are in complete denial about present day sales and totally optimistic that it will be turned around 180 degrees, even though Ford is only spending $1 billion on seven new or refreshed vehicles. I think 100,000 sales/year is doable, but based upon what I've heard so far I don't see how anyone could be super optimisic. Much more has to be seen in the flesh, and IMO more money has to be invested. Next up is new small CUV at NAIAS. Lincoln is not showing it at L.A. Hopefully it will come in hybrid form and with conventional motor that is not found in Escape. Maybe the new 2.7 L V6.

 

OKAY.

[Extreme4x4]

You mean this same automotive journalism that shouted from all of the rooftops what a dumb plan it was to have a guy from outside the auto industry lead Ford??

 

You mean the same automotive journalism that insisted that Ford was doomed, and would never pull itself out of the basement??

 

You know, that same automotive journalism that was positive that Fords mortage would be a straight path to BK??

 

I grew up in an alcoholic household. I finally became a good adult, when I realized that I could do nothing to change the past, so it did no good dwelling on it, and beating yourself up for it. I can control today, and can have an influence on tomorrow. That is all.

 

Some of you guys just need to let go of the past, and give Ford the chance that they have EARNED. Nobody here is saying that what Ford is doing with Lincoln will fix everything. Its just that we are willing to give them that chance, and that benefit of the doubt.

[fordmantpw]

No, it's due to Ford Motor Company's incoherent strategies for the Lincoln brand.

 

What is incoherent?

 

Start with a Ford chassis, give it an entirely new skin, add some electronic gadgetry that Ford doesn't have, add in some electronic suspension bits, make the interior richer, add unique powertrains (where applicable and available), add some unique options (sliding glass roof), and do it without sacrificing progress at Ford to chase sales for Lincoln.

 

Ford isn't going to mortgage it's future to ensure Lincoln has a future. Ford isn't GM and isn't going to do what GM did with Cadillac (spend billions for unique platforms). It's going to be a slow, methodical, deliberate, lower-cost approach to turning out great luxury cars. It will take some time, but if the new MKZ is any indicator, it should be successful. Oh, and keep in mind that the MKZ isn't the first "true" new Lincoln...it is the first step in that direction, but it was underway before Lincoln's "way forward" was determined.

 

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[fordmantpw]

OKAY.

 

Dude, you need to learn that typing "OKAY" is too much for these folks. You need to stick with the much shorter "OK"...it requires less effort, and has the same effect.

[PREMiERdrum]

Dude, you need to learn that typing "OKAY" is too much for these folks. You need to stick with the much shorter "OK"...it requires less effort, and has the same effect.

 

Or, as I often receive as an answer to stupid questions asked of my wife, "K."

[fordmantpw]

Or, as I often receive as an answer to stupid questions asked of my wife, "K."

 

Wow, your wife is rather thoughtful. The answer I get usually consists of " "

[PREMiERdrum]

Wow, your wife is rather thoughtful. The answer I get usually consists of " "

 

We've only been married 9 years... her hospitality might soon be waning.

[akirby]

On here, it's the BOF Mafia who are complete and utter cheerleaders in the extreme and Ford bashers in general who have to be be discredited/attacked. There is no middle ground even if you drive a Ford and have always driven a Ford. That is meaningless, you have to be a cheerleader or be attacked if not. So you have to believe that Lincoln will someday be a world class luxury brand no matter how dismal the sales become like last month. Other than new MKZ and promise of seven new or refreshed vehicles, you are supposed to be this cheerleader believer. In other words, blind faith with not even concepts to see of where Lincoln is going. All we have is 5,000 sales in October, and MCE'd MKS and MKT sinking in sales. Even the MKX is getting a bit soft in sales. It's harder to be optimistic with these results. Sorry cheerleaders. I'm not saying Lincoln can't come back, just the road back is tougher with each passing month of sales. At some point prospective customers and probably already have based upon these low sales, have to wonder if Lincoln brand is sustainable enough to plunk down big bucks for Lincoln model. Assuredy, the BOF Mafia is NOT.

 

When Fordbuyer is the only one agreeing with you - you should be very worried.