mackinaw Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 From today's Detroit News: "Has the Chevrolet Volt met its match? Consumer Reports thinks so. The influential magazine on Wednesday dubbed Ford Motor Co.'s new C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid "more practical" than the Volt, currently the best-selling rechargeable vehicle on the market. "It doesn't have the 40-mile range of the Chevrolet Volt, but the C-Max Energi is still a lot more practical than a Volt, with a more usable three-person seat," Consumer Reports writes. "The C-Max Energi is also the first hybrid that gives drivers full control over whether the vehicle runs on electricity only, gas only, or a more efficient blend of both." The C-Max Energi has a range of approximately 21 miles. Consumer Reports said the C-Max traditional hybrid is "more engaging to drive than any Prius variant" and said touted the C-Max's interior, though Consumer Reports said it is not as spacious as Toyota Motor Corp.'s Prius v." From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitne...2#ixzz2CEKPl1K9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I hadn't realized the range on the C-Max Energi was that low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) I hadn't realized the range on the C-Max Energi was that low. 21 miles is not low, Ford, GM and Toyota all have significant difference in battery ranges, I think the market is divided on just how much range is actually needed by people who are interested. Re C-Max Vs Volt: I'm wary of this, the two vehicles actually service different niches, C-Max is more hybrid centric while Volt is more EV centric. I think the sales of C-Max energi will continue to be much lower than Volt, for a number of reasons already hammered to death. Now, if you were to compare a Fusion energi to the Volt, I think the answer comes down to GM's attractive leases taking the day... Edited November 14, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I'm wary of this, the two vehicles actually service different niches, C-Max is more hybrid centric while Volt is more EV centric. I think the sales of C-Max energi will continue to be much lower than Volt, for a number of reasons already hammered to death. Now, if you were to compare a Fusion energi to the Volt, I think the answer comes down to GM's attractive leases taking the day... What is the battery range on the Fusion Energi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) What is the battery range on the Fusion Energi? Both the energis are around 21-25 miles while Volt has increased from 35 to 38 miles - Prius is significantly less... People are buying Volts on low cost leasing and using the battery only range to avoid buying fuel, that's why Volt sales have increased so much in the latter half of this year. Edited November 14, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Both the energis are around 21-25 miles while Volt has increased from 35 to 38 miles - Prius is significantly less... That's a significant differentiator between Volt and the rest. Edited November 14, 2012 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 What is the battery range on the Fusion Energi? 20-25 as was already mentioned. This has been known for some time. The battery pack is larger than the hybrid but not as large as the Volt, thus the difference in fuel mileage. Ford could easily increase the size of the battery pack to get the same range as the Volt but that would be expensive, take up more interior/trunk space and add more weight. Based on early sales I'd say they found the sweet spot between cost, range and weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 That's a significant differentiator between Volt and the rest. If you drive more than 25 miles but less than 40 between charges, yes. But the longer you drive the better the C-Max is because once the battery is depleted the Volt only gets 37 mpg while the CMax gets 47 mpg. Did you miss the Volt thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) I hadn't realized the range on the C-Max Energi was that low. To put it in context, Prius PHEV's EV range is 11 miles... so C-Max Energi has DOUBLE the EV range. http://www.plugincar...pge-113325.html That's a significant differentiator between Volt and the rest. Volt is an EV with gasoline onboard generator. Prius and C-Max (and Fusion) plug in are conventional hybrids with externally rechargable batteries. The inherent difference in design (i.e. number of battery cells) accounts for the difference in EV range. Alternatively, you could say that Volt's EV range is puny compare to Leaf or Focus EV. It's like saying Mustang GT has more horsepower than Fiesta... well, it was designed that way. Edited November 14, 2012 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Rather than vendor designed BEVs for Transit connect and Focus, I would have much rather Ford and its suppliers went for broke with an "energi plus" Extended Range EV with Volt beating battery range and the 2.0 DI Atkinson engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvbs Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Another difference is that the Volt motor provides full motivation with electricity. Meaning you get full acceleration/hill climbing/merging power on electric power. The engine only turns on once the battery is depleted. The Energi cars have smaller electric motors that are to assist the gas engine. You can drive on electric alone in most steady state cruising, but if you dip into the throttle heavy, the gas engine will turn on, even if you have a full battery charge. My commute involves a couple short on-ramps that typically call for near WOT then a few miles of 70+ freeway cruising. From what I understand, in this scenario, the Energi would be running the gas engine for most of this time. Of course, if the electric motors in the Energi are upgraded over the non-plug in versions, then ignore the prior statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Another difference is that the Volt motor provides full motivation with electricity. Meaning you get full acceleration/hill climbing/merging power on electric power. The engine only turns on once the battery is depleted. The Energi cars have smaller electric motors that are to assist the gas engine. You can drive on electric alone in most steady state cruising, but if you dip into the throttle heavy, the gas engine will turn on, even if you have a full battery charge. My commute involves a couple short on-ramps that typically call for near WOT then a few miles of 70+ freeway cruising. From what I understand, in this scenario, the Energi would be running the gas engine for most of this time. Of course, if the electric motors in the Energi are upgraded over the non-plug in versions, then ignore the prior statement. The Energis have the capability to run on 100% electric power alone until the battery is depleted (user selectable). So I assume the propulsion motor is either upgraded or the standard one is up to the task already. It would be interesting to see a battery only test between the Cmax Energi and the Volt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 I guess it's in our nature to compare -- even when vehicles are in a different class. There are a lot of comparisons of the Leaf and Volt on line which also pretty much doesn't make sense. What you can say is that there are a variety of BEV's/PHEV's/EREV's in various configurations and you can choose the one (or none) that is best for you. The issue is, of course, package. Batteries are extraordinarily poor in terms of energy density. Think of that large t-shaped battery pack in the Volt which weighs over 400 pounds and gives equivalent mileage to a gallon of gas weighing 6 pounds. Yikes. So each manufacturer has to make compromises and find the right balance between weight, cost, package, range, and economy. In some cases with a new platform (Tesla and Leaf), a highly modified platform (Volt) or as an add-on (Focus BEV, Energi models). Manufacturers also might have to make compromises if they want to blend production of their plug-ins with ICE's and hybrids (Leaf, Ford BEV/PHEV). And, of course, any PHEV/EREV has to maintain package for the ICE and all the junk that goes with it like fuel tanks. Customers also have to make compromises. True they might be comparing a Volt and a C-Max or Fusion Energi, but whether one is more useful than the other depends in part on one's daily use of the car. For some, the C-Max Energi range is fine; others might find that the Volt range allows them to be fully on electric almost all the time and maybe they don't need the rear seat package. Considering the state of the art, for a lot of customers, the best choice from a financial standpoint (even with the huge government incentives) is "none of the above." From a package standpoint, the Volt has a wide tunnel, gives up the middle seat in the rear, and has some footwell issues for rear seat passengers. The C-Max Energi has a huge battery intrusion in the trunk which means if you want the flat floor, it is raised substantially. The Fusion Energi will lose at least half its trunk, just like the Accord PHEV. Still, it's good to see some good press from CR for a change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_sallad Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) If you drive more than 25 miles but less than 40 between charges, yes. But the longer you drive the better the C-Max is because once the battery is depleted the Volt only gets 37 mpg while the CMax gets 47 mpg. Did you miss the Volt thread? The breakeven point between a C-Max and a Volt won't happen as soon as the Volt's engine turns on. Overall trip mileage of the C-Max will start to gain on the Volt again after 40 miles, but it won't be better till 54.7 miles, if you assume 25 miles/47mpg vs 40 miles/37mpg. So if you drive between 25 miles and 54.7 miles between charges, the Volt will consume less gas. Somebody else can factor in the difference in purchase price, price of fuel, and total miles driven to find the breakeven point in terms of overall cost - I've done my math for the morning! Edit: and of course there's the practicality aspect of having a bigger car with 5 seats that is the topic of this thread! Edited November 15, 2012 by mustang_sallad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 The breakeven point between a C-Max and a Volt won't happen as soon as the Volt's engine turns on. Overall trip mileage of the C-Max will start to gain on the Volt again after 40 miles, but it won't be better till 54.7 miles, if you assume 25 miles/47mpg vs 40 miles/37mpg. So if you drive between 25 miles and 54.7 miles between charges, the Volt will consume less gas. Somebody else can factor in the difference in purchase price, price of fuel, and total miles driven to find the breakeven point in terms of overall cost - I've done my math for the morning! Edit: and of course there's the practicality aspect of having a bigger car with 5 seats that is the topic of this thread! I knew the break even point was higher than 40 but was too lazy to calculate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 The Energis have the capability to run on 100% electric power alone until the battery is depleted (user selectable). So I assume the propulsion motor is either upgraded or the standard one is up to the task already. It would be interesting to see a battery only test between the Cmax Energi and the Volt. I don't think there e-CVT is any different between the Energi and the Hybrid, but electric power delivery is higher on the Energi due to the larger battery, so it should have more "oomph." In "EV-Now" mode on the C-Max, I would expect the Volt to perform better due to higher output motor. After battery depletion, the C-Max Energi does have better stated fuel economy than the Volt, but IIRC, the Energi's fuel economy drops to 43mpg from the 47 of the hybrid model. Due to weight, I assume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 I don't think there e-CVT is any different between the Energi and the Hybrid, but electric power delivery is higher on the Energi due to the larger battery, so it should have more "oomph." In "EV-Now" mode on the C-Max, I would expect the Volt to perform better due to higher output motor. After battery depletion, the C-Max Energi does have better stated fuel economy than the Volt, but IIRC, the Energi's fuel economy drops to 43mpg from the 47 of the hybrid model. Due to weight, I assume. I didn't realize that. It does drop to 44/41 on the Energi instead of 47. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 The breakeven point between a C-Max and a Volt won't happen as soon as the Volt's engine turns on. Overall trip mileage of the C-Max will start to gain on the Volt again after 40 miles, but it won't be better till 54.7 miles, if you assume 25 miles/47mpg vs 40 miles/37mpg. So if you drive between 25 miles and 54.7 miles between charges, the Volt will consume less gas. Somebody else can factor in the difference in purchase price, price of fuel, and total miles driven to find the breakeven point in terms of overall cost - I've done my math for the morning! Edit: and of course there's the practicality aspect of having a bigger car with 5 seats that is the topic of this thread! You forgot to figure in the cost of electricity as well... Which, granted, is small, but probably makes the break-even point a couple miles earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/15/2013-ford-c-max-energi-first-drive-review/ Speaking off... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 the other point is that GM is encouraging Volt take up with very attractive leasing agreements, low monthly lease payments and practically zero fuel bills makes for a compelling argument. I doubt whether lease payments on Ford's energi PHEVs are anywhere near as low as the Volt's.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) the other point is that GM is encouraging Volt take up with very attractive leasing agreements, low monthly lease payments and practically zero fuel bills makes for a compelling argument. I doubt whether lease payments on Ford's energi PHEVs are anywhere near as low as the Volt's.. Well, you are in Australia so you don't have first person experience on this The lease payment on the regular C-Max is pretty aggressive (~$200 a month with minimal down payment) so I don't think the Energi will be that much more expensive. Prius PHEV and Volt are both less than $300 a month in California; all with minimal down payment. Focus EV is currently about $200 a month with $3000 down payment (there is a Ford rebate of $10000 included which is the value of Federal and State tax credit). http://www.greencarr...-matches-nissan Edited November 15, 2012 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 To put it in context, Prius PHEV's EV range is 11 miles... so C-Max Energi has DOUBLE the EV range. http://www.plugincar...pge-113325.html Volt is an EV with gasoline onboard generator. Prius and C-Max (and Fusion) plug in are conventional hybrids with externally rechargable batteries. The inherent difference in design (i.e. number of battery cells) accounts for the difference in EV range. Alternatively, you could say that Volt's EV range is puny compare to Leaf or Focus EV. It's like saying Mustang GT has more horsepower than Fiesta... well, it was designed that way. The Volt's gas engine (controversially) also has direct mechanical connection to the road at speeds above 75mph I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Focus EV is currently about $200 $199 a month with $3000 down payment (there is a Ford rebate of $10000 included which is the value of Federal and State tax credit). http://www.greencarr...-matches-nissan That sounds mighty familiar to a certain bow tie wearing vehicle a few months back. So what is the residual on the Focus EV? (The MSRP is $39,200) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 That sounds mighty familiar to a certain bow tie wearing vehicle a few months back. So what is the residual on the Focus EV? (The MSRP is $39,200) I don't like using a gov't rebate to finance a lease whether it's Ford or GM. But at least with the EV Focus Ford is only producing a small number of them and not trying to win some sales crown like GM with the Volt. A $200 payment plus a $10K rebate says the residual would be around $25K give or take. Why would anyone pay $25K for a 2 year old car when you could buy a brand new one for $30K after the rebate? You can get away with this if the volume is really small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) The lease payment on the regular C-Max is pretty aggressive (~$200 a month with minimal down payment) so I don't think the Energi will be that much more expensive. Prius PHEV and Volt are both less than $300 a month in California; all with minimal down payment. Focus EV is currently about $200 a month with $3000 down payment (there is a Ford rebate of $10000 included which is the value of Federal and State tax credit). http://www.greencarr...-matches-nissan C-Max Hybrid SE $258/mo, 39 month lease, $3453 due at signing Excludes security deposit, taxes & fees C-Max Hybrid SEL $280/mo, 24 month lease, $3775 due at signing Excludes security deposit, taxes & fees C-Max Energi $320/mo, 24 month lease, $4290 due at signing Excludes security deposit, taxes & fee Focus EV $328/mo - 39 month lease, $3121 due at signing Excludes security deposit, taxes & fees Edited November 15, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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