bengbrewer Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Consumer reports claim their mpg testing of the hybrid is 39mpg which is nowhere near 47mpg. What's going to happen after I purchase the car in a couple weeks and I get 40mpg. Is ford going to reimburse their customers on a yearly basis for the difference. What is Everyone else getting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MineralstangGT Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Consumer reports claim their mpg testing of the hybrid is 39mpg which is nowhere near 47mpg. What's going to happen after I purchase the car in a couple weeks and I get 40mpg. Is ford going to reimburse their customers on a yearly basis for the difference. What is Everyone else getting? Yeah, and if a mfg ever underrates the power on an engine you buy, you should have to pay the mfg since you're getting more power than they claimed. Nice thought. There are a few people on here who have taken delivery of theirs, so I'll let them chime in. Check fuelly too, I think they have four reporting mileage so fat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengbrewer Posted December 7, 2012 Author Share Posted December 7, 2012 Yeah, way to come at me with a shitty analogy. Key difference here, the consumer is not the one making billions of dollars. You're a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MineralstangGT Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Yeah, way to come at me with a shitty analogy. Key difference here, the consumer is not the one mak. g billions of dollars. You're a joke. Wow. Look at you with the swearing and pointed comments as well. Have you ever thought they could both be right based on their own individual testing standards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboTi Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Indeed. You can get better mileage than the epa. But it wouldn't be any fun. Ford is not alone, they submit their cars to the epa just like everyone else. If you couldn't match epa numbers in a Ford, you wouldn't match epa numbers in a Toyota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey151 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 ................ Is ford going to reimburse their customers on a yearly basis for the difference. That depends. The EPA lays out the testing guidelines, the auto maker follows them & certifies the result. If Ford did not follow them to the letter they might (ala Hyundai). If Ford did follow them & feels the test is valid = not going to happen. FWIW - they all game the test to an extent, tuning maximize the mpg under the strict guidelines. It's like cops & robbers. The EPA changes the guideline, makers change the tune.......EPA changes the guideline, makers change the tune................. I wouldn't be too upset, 40mpg is damn good for a car of that size. About the only car that can match it is the Passat TDI. Instead of being bummed you could be happy you've got a big heavy car with a lot of room that gets 40mpg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camride Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Consumer reports claim their mpg testing of the hybrid is 39mpg which is nowhere near 47mpg. What's going to happen after I purchase the car in a couple weeks and I get 40mpg. Is ford going to reimburse their customers on a yearly basis for the difference. What is Everyone else getting? As mentioned the only way that is going to happen is if they have a massive lawsuit like Hyundai and are determined to have not tested correctly. I doubt that's going to be the case. MPG will always differ from driver to driver, just because you're not getting 47mpg doesn't mean it's impossible, you might just not drive it in the most efficient manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 FWIW - they all game the test to an extent, tuning maximize the mpg under the strict guidelines. It's like cops & robbers. The EPA changes the guideline, makers change the tune.......EPA changes the guideline, makers change the tune................. False. You can't tune an engine to perform well for the EPA test and not have the car perform well in the real world. The EPA test is a simulation of the real world, so you can't just tune to "game" the EPA test. Plus, it's illegal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey151 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) .....You can't tune an engine to perform well for the EPA test and not have the car perform well in the real world. The EPA test is a simulation of the real world, so you can't just tune to "game" the EPA test. Plus, it's illegal... Nope. They can and do tune the engine for optimal performance under the current EPA guidelines. The only thing illegal would be if they did a one off tune for the test. As long as all vehicles are given the same tune it's perfectly legal. As is fuel, as long as it's commonly available fuel it's fine.....see any disclaimer on the sticker about what fuel was used to get the rating? Nope. So they say regular is fine & yet the test was done with premium = it's all good. The EPA lays down the tests, they determine what is "city" driving - does this match your particular driving? Maybe, maybe not.....hence the disclaimer "you mileage may vary". They have changed the tests over the years......long gone are the days of doing the tests in death valley - in fact today there isn't even any real road test, it's a simulation. Hyundai got nailed because they didn't do the test correctly - and all for a whopping 1 - 2 mpg, this gets the avg consumer what? Not a huge amount - my wife can get something like $30 bucks (low mileage). You'll also note the old gunchbag in California got her decision against Honda tossed - Honda did the test correctly & she was this 1/2 wit who couldn't grasp "you mileage may vary". As long as Ford did the test correctly they can tell Consumer McDorks & everyone else to STFU. Why is the top speed in EV mode 62mph (it's actually capable of going much faster)? The test for highway is 60mph IIRC - how many real world highways have a 60mph speed limit these days? So the engineers say "test is 60, let's get it to run in EV mode that fast for the duration" = success. Car is released & capable of doing it.....don't have a hill, can't do 62mph uphill? Also humorous - like every Govt agency the EPA is pretty much a fail.........the test is skewed to gas engines, diesels often exceed the rating due to the testing process. So the auto makers optimize the performance for the EPA's narrow testing criteria.....they change it, they'll optimize................ Edited December 7, 2012 by Bailey151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 False. You can't tune an engine to perform well for the EPA test and not have the car perform well in the real world. The EPA test is a simulation of the real world, so you can't just tune to "game" the EPA test. Plus, it's illegal... This is one of the biggest myths out there. Anything you can think of to help the car on the EPA test will also help it in normal everyday driving. In Hyundai's case they were using the wrong test procedure, not changing the vehicle. Hybrids will get worse fuel economy in the winter due to winter blend fuel, ethanol and running the heater. If you have optional tires that could also lower your mpg. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmcelhinney Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 One thing to realize is that most people do not let their cars warm up. I notice a huge difference in MPG when my car is not allowed to warm up. The EPA test for city is a 31.2 minute test. It warms up for 5.6 minutes (from cold)! Now it states that it has different testing for hybrids but take a look. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml -Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Nope. They can and do tune the engine for optimal performance under the current EPA guidelines. True, but the point I was making would be that if it improves MPG in the EPA test, it should improve real-world MPG since the EPA test is a simulation of "real-world". Is it exact? No, because everyone's is different, but the conditions of the test are so varied and all-encompassing that it is difficult to see MPG improving for the EPA test and not improving in real-world. That is the point of the test The only thing illegal would be if they did a one off tune for the test. As long as all vehicles are given the same tune it's perfectly legal. Yeah, I wasn't clear there. I was thinking a one-off tune or a defeat device for the EPA test, and yes, as long as they all have the same tune, it's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmcelhinney Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Oh yeah and average speed of highway is 48.3 with a max of 60. Don't know how many people drive 48mph on the highway but I don't! They have a high speed test but I don't know if that contributes to the stated highway mileage. I am betting that car makers will gear a car based on the 60mph so it suffers when you go faster... -Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Oh yeah and average speed of highway is 48.3 with a max of 60. Don't know how many people drive 48mph on the highway but I don't! They have a high speed test but I don't know if that contributes to the stated highway mileage. I am betting that car makers will gear a car based on the 60mph so it suffers when you go faster... -Keith Newsflash...no matter what speed the car is "geared for", the fuel economy will suffer as you go greater than 60 MPH. You just can't defeat the laws of physics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey151 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) .....Yeah, I wasn't clear there. I was thinking a one-off tune or a defeat device for the EPA test, and yes, as long as they all have the same tune, it's fine. :lol: Which is why I explained.....thought the same thing, sounds like I'm saying a "one off" tune :lol: True, but the point I was making would be that if it improves MPG in the EPA test, it should improve real-world MPG since the EPA test is a simulation of "real-world"........ My guess (see sig) is that the EPA isn't up to snuff on hybrids.....given they use tailpipe emissions to measure fuel use. They claim accuracy (more than a gauge) but even fuelly.gov admits it's not so accurate with electric vehicles. The test is probably good for gassers, not as accurate for EV. Ford likely saw the opportunity to maximize the test w/ a 62mph EV. Again a SWAG but I'd guess the EPA will revise the testing (like they did last time) require a re-submit & the ratings will change (like the last go 'round). Newsflash...no matter what speed the car is "geared for", the fuel economy will suffer as you go greater than 60 MPH. You just can't defeat the laws of physics. :lol: Yep, check what speed hypermilers drive...............that would drive me insane..... Edited December 7, 2012 by Bailey151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 My guess (see sig) is that the EPA isn't up to snuff on hybrids.....given they use tailpipe emissions to measure fuel use. They claim accuracy (more than a gauge) but even fuelly.gov admits it's not so accurate with electric vehicles. The test is probably good for gassers, not as accurate for EV. Ford likely saw the opportunity to maximize the test w/ a 62mph EV. Again a SWAG but I'd guess the EPA will revise the testing (like they did last time) require a re-submit & the ratings will change (like the last go 'round). The only real difference I could see with the hybrid is the state of the batteries. If the batteries are 100% charge at the beginning and 20% at the end, then the effective fuel economy (over a longer test) would be lower. I could see the test being lengthened a bit to get a better reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marjen Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I think we are going to see that their milage claims are bogus across the line up. Didn't they just get an award for the fusion being so green based on the advertised numbers?? If my titanium 2.0L is any indication (averaging less then 19.5 mpg), there numbers are seriously inflated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Another big issue here not being discussed in this thread. EPA has a specific well documented testing routine. Consumer Reports has a super secret testing routine and won't tell anyone what they did to actually achieve those numbers. Pretty hard to say whether CR's testing was right or wrong in any sense if they don't disclose their testing routine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey151 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) The only real difference I could see with the hybrid is the state of the batteries. If the batteries are 100% charge at the beginning and 20% at the end, then the effective fuel economy (over a longer test) would be lower. I could see the test being lengthened a bit to get a better reading. Good guess........as I said I think the EPA is a bit behind on the hybrid testing.....they'll likely update going forward. Still think 40mpg is pretty darn good for such a large (& heavy) vehicle. Another big issue here not being discussed in this thread. EPA has a specific well documented testing routine. Consumer Reports has a super secret testing routine and won't tell anyone what they did to actually achieve those numbers. Pretty hard to say whether CR's testing was right or wrong in any sense if they don't disclose their testing routine. Which is why CR is pretty much worthless all the way around - they don't give out any testing or statistical data = what they base their claims on will always be a mystery. Of course given one time they did w/ the Samurai & the NTHSA told them the test was rubbish............. :lol: Edited December 7, 2012 by Bailey151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Still think 40mpg is pretty darn good for such a large (& heavy) vehicle. Agreed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmcelhinney Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) All I was saying is that the epa is not a real world test if the hiway speed is 48mph. I don't expect to get 47mpg because I drive faster. I know the laws of physics but you can not tell me that a car that is geared to perform well at 48mph is going to do as well as a car geared to cruise at 70mph when going 70. I car spinning at 2000rpm is going to get way better mileage than one at 4000. Now the fusions have a CVT so it will be different but who knows what the top ratio ends up being? And companies do do some shady stuff for their gas mileage. I own an elantra. Tires wore out at 28k miles because they were so thin. When I got the car I got (what I) expected mpg. Then they flashed the ecu and my mileage dropped by 15-20%. Wonder which program the epa test was on? Wonder how much damage the original program did so it could run so lean? I expect to get about 40mpg. Any more would be gravy... -Keith Edited December 7, 2012 by keithmcelhinney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elle Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Oh yeah and average speed of highway is 48.3 with a max of 60. -Keith That's going to make a huge difference in a hybrid. The numbers are starting to make sense to me. I drive a Prius and never get the manufacturer's estimates, but I have a heavy foot. When I am more cautious about how I drive, especially on the highway, my mileage does improve. I'll be happy to get in the Fusion what I get now, which seems doable based on the feedback I'm hearing so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 ...you can not tell me that a car that is geared to perform well at 48mph is going to do as well as a car geared to cruise at 70mph when going 70. I car spinning at 2000rpm is going to get way better mileage than one at 4000. I didn't say that. What I did say, is ...no matter what speed the car is "geared for", the fuel economy will suffer as you go greater than 60 MPH" A car with higher gears (lower RPM at same speed) will do better in highway MPG, whereas a car with lower gears (higher RPM at same speed) will do better in city numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsellar Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Just saw this article... http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012/12/did-ford-fudge-mileage-numbers/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camride Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 All I was saying is that the epa is not a real world test if the hiway speed is 48mph. I don't expect to get 47mpg because I drive faster. I know the laws of physics but you can not tell me that a car that is geared to perform well at 48mph is going to do as well as a car geared to cruise at 70mph when going 70. I car spinning at 2000rpm is going to get way better mileage than one at 4000. Now the fusions have a CVT so it will be different but who knows what the top ratio ends up being? And companies do do some shady stuff for their gas mileage. I own an elantra. Tires wore out at 28k miles because they were so thin. When I got the car I got (what I) expected mpg. Then they flashed the ecu and my mileage dropped by 15-20%. Wonder which program the epa test was on? Wonder how much damage the original program did so it could run so lean? I expect to get about 40mpg. Any more would be gravy... -Keith That is not always true. Ignoring all other factors a car will get better mileage at the rpm the engine is most efficient at. Smaller engines tend to not be as efficient at really low rpms because it doesn't make as much power that low, so the engine has to work harder to maintain speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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