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Joe771476

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Now that we know a bit more about the Ford/VW deal.......  Looks like VW will get the Ranger and Transit, and Ford will a replacement for the Transit Connect.  What does that mean for Ford-Otosan?

No large truck commercial truck collaboration, but with the Traton spin-off I was not expecting there to be.

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24 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

Now that we know a bit more about the Ford/VW deal.......  Looks like VW will get the Ranger and Transit, and Ford will a replacement for the Transit Connect.  What does that mean for Ford-Otosan?

No large truck commercial truck collaboration, but with the Traton spin-off I was not expecting there to be.

No Transit Connect-but don't our Transit Connects come from Spain? That says to me Ford Otosan's goose is already partially "cooked" --or I'm missing something.

And as for large commercial trucks, we keep hearing that Ford-Otosan is handling all Ford Truck engineering world wide.  But what evidence do we have to support that?  Supposedly Bill Ford has an appreciation for the Ford Otosan group but if so, does Hackett get that message??

The only thing Otosan has on their new big truck that is "Ford" is a logo.  Now when the Work Show takes place in March we will see if the new Super Duty-beyond a 450 pick up-shows any new engineering to counter the new GM/Navistar JV.  Or an Ecotorque diesel for 750.

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I don't expect to see any changes to the 450-up line except for the 7X engine and cosmetics.  Did hear there definitely will be a 2020 650/750, so there is that.  Any major redesign to the 450 and 550 will probably be when the next version is introduced (2023?).  Of course by then GM will have a 7500/8500 through their Navistar JV and Ram will have a 1,500 ft. lbs. torque Cummins......  

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Bob and 7M3, you guys are not considering the "China Syndrome" effect on Ford (and by extension, Otosan) Heavy Truck...this thread from Big Mack Trucks from 2/2017 is short on details, but clearly links that connection between Ford, JMC, and Otosan...

https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/48768-china-market-ford-cargo-heavy-tractor-arrives/

58a51126b637a_image1.jpg.30ae8a19cdf40504da4ed5f6f92e662f.jpg

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2 hours ago, twintornados said:

Bob and 7M3, you guys are not considering the "China Syndrome" effect on Ford (and by extension, Otosan) Heavy Truck...this thread from Big Mack Trucks from 2/2017 is short on details, but clearly links that connection between Ford, JMC, and Otosan...

https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/48768-china-market-ford-cargo-heavy-tractor-arrives/

58a51126b637a_image1.jpg.30ae8a19cdf40504da4ed5f6f92e662f.jpg

TT,

Well I can only say I am not smart enough to sort out how all this will play out with the China market.  Given the state of affairs we are in with both Turkey AND China my first thought is this is not exactly a good position for Ford to be in.  Biggest issue I would see is the political climate with Turkey.  This guy Erdogan is playing hardball with the Kurds and I would really hate to see us back off on our support for the Kurds.

And how much stroke does Otosan have with the Chinese deal vs. Ford?

Amazing isn't it?  We are worried about the Chinese stealing our technology, yet look how much we get from them.  So we worry about our domestic content in stuff we make, and then again, the Chinese economy is tanking and THAT then becomes a big reason for gloom and doom.

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On 1/16/2019 at 10:07 AM, Bob Rosadini said:

TT,

Well I can only say I am not smart enough to sort out how all this will play out with the China market.  Given the state of affairs we are in with both Turkey AND China my first thought is this is not exactly a good position for Ford to be in.  Biggest issue I would see is the political climate with Turkey.  This guy Erdogan is playing hardball with the Kurds and I would really hate to see us back off on our support for the Kurds.

And how much stroke does Otosan have with the Chinese deal vs. Ford?

Amazing isn't it?  We are worried about the Chinese stealing our technology, yet look how much we get from them.  So we worry about our domestic content in stuff we make, and then again, the Chinese economy is tanking and THAT then becomes a big reason for gloom and doom.

Remember the Cargo is also produced by Ford do Brasil in a wholly owner Ford plant.

Otosan doesn't really produce any of its own vehicles. The other portion is under a Holding company, not a car company. Ford has the upper hand.

With JMC, Ford owns the largest share. So again, Ford has the upper hand. 

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Ford Otosan is like Ford Lio Ho... technically it is a joint venture but it is effectively a Ford subsidiary. The joint venture partner in both cases doesn't get involved with how Ford runs the automotive operation.

Ford Otosan is basically Ford Turkey just like Ford Lio Ho is basically Ford Taiwan.

 

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1 hour ago, ausrutherford said:

Remember the Cargo is also produced by Ford do Brasil in a wholly owner Ford plant.

Otosan doesn't really produce any of its own vehicles. The other portion is under a Holding company, not a car company. Ford has the upper hand.

With JMC, Ford owns the largest share. So again, Ford has the upper hand. 

Thx for the posting.  I guess what bothers me about Brazil is that it seems disconnected from the rest of Ford.  Turkey is the design hub for Ford trucks-or so we are told?  Yet we see no evidence of the new big cab over that was recently introduced in Turkey showing up in Brazil to replace what is obviously now a dated large cab over.    Why not?  Best thing since canned beer and the design hub doesn't influence what goes on in Brazil?  What happened to "One Ford" or did that go away with Mulally?   The Brazil Cargo line below the large cab over looks like it could fill many voids here in the US-that GM/Isuzu will handle in the meantime.   Another lost opportunity.

 As for Otosan, isn't the holding company that controls it Koc?.  I have been on the Ford Turkey website and it shows a very large facility as well as all sorts of images of Ford production workers.

 And as for China, I had no clue that Ford was the major position holder in JMC.  I guess that is a positive.

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14 minutes ago, bzcat said:

Ford Otosan is like Ford Lio Ho... technically it is a joint venture but it is effectively a Ford subsidiary. The joint venture partner in both cases doesn't get involved with how Ford runs the automotive operation.

Ford Otosan is basically Ford Turkey just like Ford Lio Ho is basically Ford Taiwan.

 

As I was typing I saw you had a post.  Not sure I understand what you mean by..."the JV partner in both cases doesn't get involved with how Ford runs the automotive operation."

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Ford owns 60% (I believe) of Ford Otosan and Koc Holding, which is a diversified conglomerate owns the remaining. But Koc doesn't have any significant involvement in the operation Ford Otosan. Ford Otosan is Ford Turkey for all intent and purpose.

Ford owns 70% of Ford Lio Ho and Lio Ho Trading, which is an auto parts and metal fabricator/supplier owns the remaining. But Lio Ho doesn't have any significant involvement in the operation of Ford Lio Ho. Ford Lio Ho is Ford Taiwan for all intent and purpose.

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3 hours ago, bzcat said:

Ford owns 60% (I believe) of Ford Otosan and Koc Holding, which is a diversified conglomerate owns the remaining. But Koc doesn't have any significant involvement in the operation Ford Otosan. Ford Otosan is Ford Turkey for all intent and purpose.

Ford owns 70% of Ford Lio Ho and Lio Ho Trading, which is an auto parts and metal fabricator/supplier owns the remaining. But Lio Ho doesn't have any significant involvement in the operation of Ford Lio Ho. Ford Lio Ho is Ford Taiwan for all intent and purpose.

thx-so safe to assume there is -or should be a lot of control from Dearborn

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I think you'll see down the road that VW will demand that Ford cut back on it's overseas expansion into heavy trucks in Europe and Asia with the Cargos and F-MAX's.  VW's Scania and Man truck divisions don't like Ford expanding into their precious territory!  And why in the heck would Ford want to let VW sell a rebadged Transit? It seems everybody wants to build trucks these days. Jeep is coming out with a pickup and I thought International and even Mercedes was contemplating a pickup. GM/Navistar is going full tilt into mediums.  Hino is going into class 8.  It's time for Ford to enter Class 8!  Ford: Get off your keisters!

Edited by Joe771476

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I see the latest Ford truck commercials are promoting the theme "Built Ford Proud."  But do you want to see real pride?  Check out all the Turkish Ford Otosan videos on Youtube.....videos with engineers and CEO's proud of the Cargo and new FMAX.  You'll see videos of the research and development facilities, test tracks, cute quirky promotional videos....you name it!  You don't see that here in USA.  Of course without a Class 8 offering, how can you be proud if you don't make a class 8 chassis worthy of a heavy duty COMMERCIAL fire apparatus protecting your community and children?!  Or a school bus bringing your kids back and forth to school?!  Or a tri-axle dump truck helping to build your highways and bridges!?  What does Ford have here in the USA to be proud of?  Some rinky dink emasculated mediums?  Sickening.  

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20 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

I think you'll see down the road that VW will demand that Ford cut back on it's overseas expansion into heavy trucks in Europe and Asia with the Cargos and F-MAX's.  VW's Scania and Man truck divisions don't like Ford expanding into their precious territory!  And why in the heck would Ford want to let VW sell a rebadged Transit? It seems everybody wants to build trucks these days. Jeep is coming out with a pickup and I thought International and even Mercedes was contemplating a pickup. GM/Navistar is going full tilt into mediums.  Hino is going into class 8.  It's time for Ford to enter Class 8!  Ford: Get off your keisters!

VW and Ford are not getting into bed when it comes to those trucks. VW nor Ford is in a position in the partnership to tell the other not to produce a product.

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1 hour ago, twintornados said:

Dang!!! Every time I see a new post in this thread, I think, "Ooh, finally!! Word on the new 7X V8...."

I hear you and have same sentiment.   Real world I'm thinking  we should get some word in March with an announcement at Work Truck Show. They need some sort of hype or GM/Navistar will own the show.

 What surprises me is this new motor was announced with a lot of press and both union and Canadian government reacted with a lot of hype.  What is the engine plant? Windsor?  You would think the troops at that plant would be posting stuff-likewise perhaps some evidence at OAP that things are happening.

Then again I believe JPD80 posted that testing was to begin in August so that is a good sign-although if "testing" begins in August ewht does that mean?  Coming to market 12 mos later??

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4 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Then again I believe JPD80 posted that testing was to begin in August so that is a good sign-although if "testing" begins in August ewht does that mean?  Coming to market 12 mos later??

It (7X V8) goes into production in August, so it's being tested now. It should be in 2020 SuperDuty F-Series, E-Series and MD F-Series.

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Check out ...worktruckshow.com   Ford according to attendee list has the biggest crew there-168.  Also the largest exhibit area.  If you click on that area, the description reads..." wait until you see whats coming next.  Join us for the biggest launch yet."

Then again I believe they had same stats last year in terms of a lot of staff and a lot of exhibit area.  But with not much to show.

Hopefully this year will be different and we will finally see some new product-including the new V-8.and another diesel powertrain option for 650-750.

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4 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Check out ...worktruckshow.com   Ford according to attendee list has the biggest crew there-168.  Also the largest exhibit area.  If you click on that area, the description reads..." wait until you see whats coming next.  Join us for the biggest launch yet."

Then again I believe they had same stats last year in terms of a lot of staff and a lot of exhibit area.  But with not much to show.

Hopefully this year will be different and we will finally see some new product-including the new V-8.and another diesel powertrain option for 650-750.

Don't get your hopes up, I don't think Ford will be ready to make any announcements regarding the 7X engine or 2020 Super Duty that early.  Have not heard anything at all regarding new diesel powertrain options for the 650/750 (just the 7X gas), but some sources think the new aluminum F series cab will eventually be used on those trucks.

My guesses for the 'big announcement'?  Electric Transit Connect or F-150, if they are not going to introduce the new Ranger again.  

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2 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

Don't get your hopes up, I don't think Ford will be ready to make any announcements regarding the 7X engine or 2020 Super Duty that early.  Have not heard anything at all regarding new diesel powertrain options for the 650/750 (just the 7X gas), but some sources think the new aluminum F series cab will eventually be used on those trucks.

My guesses for the 'big announcement'?  Electric Transit Connect or F-150, if they are not going to introduce the new Ranger again.  

Party pooper.... 🤣🤣🤣

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3 hours ago, twintornados said:

Party pooper.... 🤣🤣🤣

Well TT he is probably right-in particular about electrification hype-that would keep Hackett happy.   Like I said, same as last year-biggest floor area and most people and we will probably hear about .."new  Ranger work truck for exterminator industry" as well as "new color options for Transit Connect."

Then again we can hope.  I think with all the hype around the new class 4,5,6 GM's and Internationals, I would think they have to have some sort of announcement other than..."please join us for lunch".  Supposedly the redesign for the SD is well along so they should at least tease with that as well as a new.."class leading gasoline engine for those who need the power but can't justify the diesel engine premium"

And speaking of the GM/International JV, if you have looked at any of the videos posted by both relative to these new trucks you get the feeling these people are serious-unlike the Ford Marketers who have ad copy showing a blue beverage side loader trailer hooked up to an orange crew cab tractor.  Then again they have had the correct blue tractor hooked up to the blue beverage trailer is some magazine ads but the point is do they pay attention?  Or should I say ...do they have the right people paying attention?

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I think that orange crew cab was the same one they used in advertisements a couple of years ago with an Allied Van Lines semi trailer. 

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On 1/20/2019 at 10:57 AM, ausrutherford said:

VW and Ford are not getting into bed when it comes to those trucks. VW nor Ford is in a position in the partnership to tell the other not to produce a product.

You may be right, but remember: When Daimler bought the class 8 L-series in 1997 and rebadged it Sterling,  the deal was Ford couldn't go into class 8 for 10 years!  I don't trust those Germans as far as I can throw them!

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4 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

I think that orange crew cab was the same one they used in advertisements a couple of years ago with an Allied Van Lines semi trailer. 

Ah 7m -you do like to bust them don't you😎.  for sure you are right about the orange  crew cab on the moving van-and it made sense in that application-but these people are so out of touch they spend money on ads and I guess think the population they are reaching is stupid.  How about the dump truck that had the manual tail gate release lever on the curb side?  Never seen one of those-not to say that someone could NOT have one installed so the helper could release it but just another example of their inattention to detail.

Having bought a lot of Ford is my life and usually having had to defend my purchase, shit like that  has always been one of the little things that would lead guys to say.."they are not truck people".  And by truck people I mean class 6-8.

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If Ford came out with an ALUMINUM cab Class 8 vocational truck, the DOT's across America would scoop them all up since the salt they're dispersing is not only destroying commercial trucks, but it's also destroying their own trucks as well!

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