Don't Read this review of the 2013 Lincoln MKZ

[akirby]

It would be interesting to see a Lincoln P and L but it will never happen. Internally, they know what its doing and and publicly it gets lumped into Fords numbers.

 

With Mulally you don't need to see it. You can be sure that Lincoln is profitable or on a track to be profitable soon. Otherwise they'd be history like Mercury.

[EBFlex]

It would be interesting to see a Lincoln P and L but it will never happen. Internally, they know what its doing and and publicly it gets lumped into Fords numbers.

 

That would be interesting. I bet there is more L than P though. Which may explain why they lump it in with Ford's figures.

[RichardJensen]

I bet there is more L than P though. Which may explain why they lump it in with Ford's figures.

 

Okay. Would you make the same statement about Cadillac? Would you make the same argument for disclosing Cadillac as a separate P&L?

[fordmantpw]

Okay. Would you make the same statement about Cadillac? Would you make the same argument for disclosing Cadillac as a separate P&L?

 

I'd put a nice some of money that Lincoln's P&L wouldn't look near as bad as Caddy's (assuming GM didn't fudge the numbers).

[akirby]

I'd put a nice some of money that Lincoln's P&L wouldn't look near as bad as Caddy's (assuming GM didn't fudge the numbers).

 

That's the problem. You'll never get an accurate picture of just how much money GM has dumped into Cadillac over the last decade with the XLR, STS, first gen Catera and SRX and all those wasted platforms. But because they produce RWD performance sedans and coupes they get a free pass.

[fordmantpw]

That's the problem. You'll never get an accurate picture of just how much money GM has dumped into Cadillac over the last decade with the XLR, STS, first gen Catera and SRX and all those wasted platforms. But because they produce RWD performance sedans and coupes they get a free pass.

 

I thought the only thing that mattered was producing cars that car reviewers salivate over??

[2005Explorer]

That would be interesting. I bet there is more L than P though. Which may explain why they lump it in with Ford's figures.

With current sales volume, all models besides the MKZ on track to be redesigned, and a big marketing push to try and re-establish the brand it's probably safe to say that Lincoln isn't profitable right now, but the idea is that there is a rainbow after the rain. I'd say at this point it's probably pointless to worry about profit or loss at Lincoln. No one other then the executives at Ford (and possibly Edward Snowden) has any idea what sort of profit or loss Lincoln is making at the present time.

[fordmantpw]

...(and possibly Edward Snowden) ...

 

Now that's funny!

[EBFlex]

Okay. Would you make the same statement about Cadillac? Would you make the same argument for disclosing Cadillac as a separate P&L?

 

If that is why the figures are lumped together, then why not?

[EBFlex]

With current sales volume, all models besides the MKZ on track to be redesigned, and a big marketing push to try and re-establish the brand it's probably safe to say that Lincoln isn't profitable right now, but the idea is that there is a rainbow after the rain. I'd say at this point it's probably pointless to worry about profit or loss at Lincoln. No one other then the executives at Ford (and possibly Edward Snowden) has any idea what sort of profit or loss Lincoln is making at the present time.

 

I fully agree. I doubt Lincoln is profitable at this time.

[RichardJensen]

If that is why the figures are lumped together, then why not?

 

Ford doesn't report P&L data on Lincoln for exactly the same reason why they don't report P&L data on the F150.

 

Because they don't have to.

[RichardJensen]

I fully agree. I doubt Lincoln is profitable at this time.

 

What vehicle range do you think they're losing money on, and why do you think they're losing money on it?

 

I'm looking for actual discussion of fixed costs, per unit costs, amortization, revenue, etc.

 

--

 

BTW: I don't think that Cadillac is, at present, losing money. I do think that it is less profitable than GM's planning assumptions, but I fully expect that it is turning a profit.

 

I also think that GM has invested far too much into Cadillac over the last 12 years to justify its current returns.

Edited July 31, 2013 by RichardJensen

[EBFlex]

What vehicle range do you think they're losing money on, and why do you think they're losing money on it?

 

As a brand, I don't think Lincoln is making money. Between the investments in current and future product and rather disappointing sales, I don't see how they're making money.

 

And, frankly, I don't need to provide fixed costs/amortization/revenue/etc. This is my opinion. I'm either right or wrong. I don't really care if I'm wrong, I want to be wrong. I would love for Lincoln to be making something, but I just don't think they are.

[aneekr]

As a brand, I don't think Lincoln is making money. Between the investments in current and future product and rather disappointing sales, I don't see how they're making money.

 

And, frankly, I don't need to provide fixed costs/amortization/revenue/etc. This is my opinion. I'm either right or wrong. I don't really care if I'm wrong, I want to be wrong. I would love for Lincoln to be making something, but I just don't think they are.

 

As an investor with a long position in F, I too would love for Lincoln to be making something. Unfortunately, all they are "making" at this point are overpriced, underwhelming clones of Ford brand vehicles - the most recent effort with MKZ included.

 

Ford Motor Company does have a lot going for it (which is why I reinvest my F dividends), but their management of the Lincoln brand isn't one of them.

[papilgee4evaeva]

As a brand, I don't think Lincoln is making money. Between the investments in current and future product and rather disappointing sales, I don't see how they're making money.

 

And, frankly, I don't need to provide fixed costs/amortization/revenue/etc. This is my opinion. I'm either right or wrong. I don't really care if I'm wrong, I want to be wrong. I would love for Lincoln to be making something, but I just don't think they are.

 

[EBFlex]

As an investor with a long position in F, I too would love for Lincoln to be making something. Unfortunately, all they are "making" at this point are overpriced, underwhelming clones of Ford brand vehicles - the most recent effort with MKZ included.

 

Ford Motor Company does have a lot going for it (which is why I reinvest my F dividends), but their management of the Lincoln brand isn't one of them.

 

i agree. They really need to try harder with Lincoln. I don't they they are being as aggressive as they should with a brand that's on life support.

 

 

Haha,

[akirby]

i agree. They really need to try harder with Lincoln. I don't they they are being as aggressive as they should with a brand that's on life support.

 

They're not on life support. They're not a stand alone brand that has to make money to survive. Ford can afford to float Lincoln for several years while they rebuild it.

 

And how do you know they're not "trying harder" already? Do you know how hard the designers and engineers are working on new vehicles? They're trying to rebuild the entire brand, not win magazine comparisons by spending tons of money on an expensive one-off platform.

 

Some people are so damned impatient.- especially when it's somebody else's money they want to spend.

[RichardJensen]

I don't see how they're making money.

 

And, frankly, I don't need to provide fixed costs/amortization/revenue/etc.

 

If you haven't thought about fixed costs, amortization, etc., then of course you can't see how they're making money.

[RichardJensen]

As an investor with a long position in F, I too would love for Lincoln to be making something.

 

And you know they're not? Have you given a moment's thought to the comparatively small incremental cost additions of differentiating the Lincoln product line as compared to the unit costs of these products, and their MSRPs?

[EBFlex]

They're not on life support. They're not a stand alone brand that has to make money to survive. Ford can afford to float Lincoln for several years while they rebuild it.

 

And how do you know they're not "trying harder" already? Do you know how hard the designers and engineers are working on new vehicles? They're trying to rebuild the entire brand, not win magazine comparisons by spending tons of money on an expensive one-off platform.

 

Some people are so damned impatient.- especially when it's somebody else's money they want to spend.

 

Ford was pretty aggressive when it came to the Ford brand. Look what they accomplished in 4 years. Lincoln has been "being rebuilt" since the introduction of the MKS. I really don't think the designers and engineers are working that hard at all for a brand that is just hanging on. We say a very tepid refresh of the MKS/MKT of which has not helped sales at all, the MKZ hasn't resulted in higher sales and was disappointing last month, etc.

 

I'm not saying they need a one off platform (but it couldn't hurt) however what the market doesn't need is another Buick/Acura/etc. So far, Lincoln offers nothing over the well established brands in the class. Lincoln either needs to offer something unique or lower their prices to get people in the door. That's the only people are going to take a good look at Lincoln. Lexus didn't spring up overnight.

[EBFlex]

If you haven't thought about fixed costs, amortization, etc., then of course you can't see how they're making money.

 

That really has nothing to do with it. It's an opinion. Unless you can prove otherwise, it's just speculation whether they are in the red or the black.

[RichardJensen]

That really has nothing to do with it.

 

What has nothing to do with what?

 

Are you saying that costs have nothing to do with profit? Or are you saying that you form your opinions without educating yourself first?

[RichardJensen]

Lexus didn't spring up overnight.

 

And yet, here you are, ready to make a judgment after one car has been released since Ford canceled Mercury and hired 200 people to overhaul Lincoln.

[twmalonehunter]

And yet, here you are, ready to make a judgment after one car has been released since Ford canceled Mercury and hired 200 people to overhaul Lincoln.

Owned

[chevys]

What has nothing to do with what?

 

Are you saying that costs have nothing to do with profit? Or are you saying that you form your opinions without educating yourself first?

You dont know the costs lincoln has any more than the rest of us. It doesnt take a whole lot deep thinking to figure out lincoln is probably in red ink. This conversation has been going on for years on this forum alone and I dont see any significant changes in product or sales as a whole. The whole division looks like is been left on a vine like the Ranger just to bleed out. The perception of lincoln I have is a tarted up Ford product. Evidently, I am not the only one when you look at the sales.