Obamacare-Because this needs it's own thread

[FiredMotorCompany]

 

1. No corporation would survive if they did what you accuse them of doing without government intervention.

 

Like Phillip Morris? The only government intervention there was to put labels on cigs and possibly keep them from advertising to children? Their product is the leading cause of preventable deaths in this country. Nearly 500K people die from smoking every year just in this country. In 2011 alone it cost the medical industry 8.4 billion dollars.

 

I does kinda su*k when you quote inside a quote.

But, to keep it simple....Isn't it your argument that people shouldn't interfere with the choices of others?

 

BTW, it sucx to try to type on a laptop in Economy on a X-Country flight!!!!!

Edited May 28, 2014 by FiredMotorCompany

[BlackHorse]

I don't even want to hear about the tobacco industry. The vast majority of people who smoke are well aware of the negative affects on their health so blaming the tobacco industry for their deaths is just ridiculous. Additionally I remember when the industry was sued by several states under the guise of "because we need the settlement money to pay for medical costs related to lung cancer". So they got a great big monetary settlement from the tobacco industry and then the vast bulk of the money that was awarded was never spent on health care for lung cancer or tobacco related illnesses as promised.

[the_spaniard]

I does kinda su*k when you quote inside a quote.

But, to keep it simple....Isn't it your argument that people shouldn't interfere with the choices of others?

 

BTW, it sucx to try to type on a laptop in Economy on a X-Country flight!!!!!

 

Fixed

 

My point is Cal50's point:

 

Blind faith in government OR any private entity is foolish.

 

But I will add that generally a combination of both (in non oppressive quantities) is preferable (at least for now), and the government is not the super-devil or Hitler.

 

And Fired you did a good job with the typing, at least you aren't typing on a phone. We all love those long economy flights. I usually get the middle seat between the morbidly obese guy and some other guy fighting off a mild strain of Ebola. Good luck.

Edited May 28, 2014 by the_spaniard

[FiredMotorCompany]

 

Fixed

 

My point is Cal50's point:

 

 

But I will add that generally a combination of both (in non oppressive quantities) is preferable (at least for now), and the government is not the super-devil or Hitler.

 

And Fired you did a good job with the typing, at least you aren't typing on a phone. We all love those long economy flights. I usually get the middle seat between the morbidly obese guy and some other guy fighting off a mild strain of Ebola. Good luck.

Acting as an agent of revenge for you, I'm suffering the gastrointestinal consequences of a mew medication whose side-effects include occasional and unpredictable diarrhea.

You're welcome.

[cal50]

 

 

 

Yeah, provided you are not one of the 45,000 people that die each year for lack of healthcare. Or you don't care that the healthcare that people have been receiving is ranked 37th in the world. Go USA!

 

 

 

 

 

Do you really think quoting a 2009 study that is questionable at best is a good & valid argument?

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2013/sep/06/alan-grayson-claims-45000-people-die-year-because-/

 

Quote~

 

It’s impossible to know precisely how many people die from having no insurance. There’s no national data for it.

Richard Kronick, a University of California San Diego medical professor who now works for the Department of Health and Human Services, wrote in 2009 that estimates are "almost certainly incorrect."

 

 

 

Now if you can cite people refused health care anywhere in the country ( except the VA which is a recent example of more government stupidity ) that would be a better argument to make.

[the_spaniard]

Do you really think quoting a 2009 study that is questionable at best is a good & valid argument?

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2013/sep/06/alan-grayson-claims-45000-people-die-year-because-/

 

Quote~

 

It’s impossible to know precisely how many people die from having no insurance. There’s no national data for it.

Richard Kronick, a University of California San Diego medical professor who now works for the Department of Health and Human Services, wrote in 2009 that estimates are "almost certainly incorrect."

 

Now if you can cite people refused health care anywhere in the country ( except the VA which is a recent example of more government stupidity ) that would be a better argument to make.

 

 

Good point on the study. The number could be lower, or it could be higher. Politifact stated they could not say either way. I don't think anyone would claim the number is zero, which is likely the case in other countries that spend half of what we spend for medical care while insuring every one of their citizens. While they pay a lot more for their coverage than we do, we pay a lot more of premiums and out of pocket expenses.

 

And contrary to popular belief you can be denied medical care. I was twice when I didn't have insurance years ago. That little mass that no one wanted to treat me for without insurance was found to be a tumor. And since I couldn't afford to pay for half of it out of pocket, the surgeon would not schedule me for surgery. When I came up with half of the money, I got my surgery and found out (luckily) that the tumor was just a lipoma (benign) and not cancer. Was this some broke clinic on the wrong side of the tracks? Nope. It was in Nicks stomping grounds in Annapolis, MD.

Edited May 28, 2014 by the_spaniard

[the_spaniard]

Acting as an agent of revenge for you, I'm suffering the gastrointestinal consequences of a mew medication whose side-effects include occasional and unpredictable diarrhea.

You're welcome.

 

Though I am greatly entertained at the prospect of payback, I fear the cost may potentially be too great.

[FiredMotorCompany]

 

Though I am greatly entertained at the prospect of payback, I fear the cost may potentially be too great.

For me....or the other offenders?

I got lucky....and so did the other 150 passengers......this time. Return flight is my seconx chance.

[Imawhosure]

Like Phillip Morris? The only government intervention there was to put labels on cigs and possibly keep them from advertising to children? Their product is the leading cause of preventable deaths in this country. Nearly 500K people die from smoking every year just in this country. In 2011 alone it cost the medical industry 8.4 billion dollars. [/size]

 

 

 

 

 

Obysmal. Very mature. And yes the government aided in their creation. Tell me, was their original intent the abuse of the system? I love how you hate government so much you will assign the blame to it, and not the people that are actually abusing the system. Way to give those unethical businessmen that free pass. Bravo. Ethics 101: Just because something is legal does not mean it is ethical. [/size]

 

 

 

 

 

Yep, go fig. [/size]

 

[/size]-Because the Department of Housing may have something to do with standards and codes for homes. Because no one violates building codes, even with these standards in place. [/size]

-[/size]Because the Department of Transportation and the NTSB developed standards to ensure those vehicles are as safe as they can be. No auto manufacturer would *EVER* try to circumvent standards, conceal evidence, etc. Thank the gods we don't have that problem *Cough* Toyota*Cough*GM. [/size]

- Do I really have to go into the Department of Transportation and the CDC?[/size]

 

 

 

 

Yeah,

 

 

This I don't quite understand. Have we come to a point where we don't need the EPA? The military? The CDC? DOT? Are people suddenly really ethical? [/size]Or am I missing it and you are saying these organizations have fulfilled their purpose according to their original charter? If that is the case, do you want these organizations to stop all enforcement of standards or do you prefer new organizations to be created by the federal government? If you believe that some people left to their own means will not lie, cheat or steal, I would recommend reviewing that history that is so obvious.[/size]

[/size]

EDIT> Or are you talking about the addition of new standards/laws/restrictions? Should we still be using lead pipes? Scientific analysis will always be identifying new threats to our health and well being. Some of these are environmental conditions. Do you want to know about them, or remain blissfully unaware?[/size]

 

 

 

 

And the alternative is what? No regulation? Yeah, drink THAT water, and put your family in THAT car. Or do you believe the states should have the power, which would likely lead to a segregated nation and a host of other problems including quality control variance from state to state? [/size]

You know, I actually spent a 1/2 hr responding to your response. And then I realized, I was wasting my time. There was absolutely no way in heck I was going to convince you of anything, because you believe that only Obysmal can fix what is broken, or maybe Hillary; and the only way to do that is for government to impose its will upon all of us.

 

And so instead, I decided to remind my contemporaries, what it is like to have a REAL President. Not a President like HW, GW, or Obysmal; but a President who can include the people, and remind the people that WE control the government, and not the other way around.

 

All we need do, is find that person today, man or woman, and America can still be who she once was.

 

 

For Cal, Fired, Mr Cap, and a host of others. To remind you, or in case you were to young to remember, this is a President.....a President whos vision had almost 40% of the democrats voting for him, and 60% of union workers. Help us find another, and it surely won't be a rino!

 

 

http://youtu.be/aWLNg8Wx9cY

Edited May 28, 2014 by Imawhosure

[the_spaniard]

You know, I actually spent a 1/2 hr responding to your response. And then I realized, I was wasting my time. There was absolutely no way in heck I was going to convince you of anything, because you believe that only Obysmal can fix what is broken, or maybe Hillary; and the only way to do that is for government to impose its will upon all of us.

 

And so instead, I decided to remind my contemporaries, what it is like to have a REAL President. Not a President like HW, GW, or Obysmal; but a President who can include the people, and remind the people that WE control the government, and not the other way around.

 

All we need do, is find that person today, man or woman, and America can still be who she once was.

 

For Cal, Fired, Mr Cap, and a host of others. To remind you, or in case you were to young to remember, this is a President.....a President whos vision had almost 40% of the democrats voting for him, and 60% of union workers. Help us find another, and it surely won't be a rino!

 

 

Nothing in my responses hinted that Obama or Clinton was the answer, so perhaps it's best we don't discuss it. I'm a moderate, so it's unlikely I would lean towards an extreme side on the right or left. I think you can see that from my posts. We can agree to disagree.

 

As far as Regan, he would be far too moderate for the political climate today, and would not stand a chance (which admittedly is a shame). He raised taxes seven of eight years he was president, at one point four times in two years. He supported a $3.6 billion dollar gas tax and bailed out Social Security. He raised the debt ceiling 18 times, a 67% total increase. Say what you will about the guy, he knew the value of compromise and working together.

 

Reagan WAS a rino. In todays political climate, the TP would be out to crucify him.

Edited May 28, 2014 by the_spaniard

[Imawhosure]

Nothing in my responses hinted that Obama or Clinton was the answer, so perhaps it's best we don't discuss it. I'm a moderate, so it's unlikely I would lean towards an extreme side on the right or left. I think you can see that from my posts. We can agree to disagree.

 

As far as Regan, he would be far too moderate for the political climate today, and would not stand a chance (which admittedly is a shame). He raised taxes seven of eight years he was president, at one point four times in two years. He supported a $3.6 billion dollar gas tax and bailed out Social Security. He raised the debt ceiling 18 times, a 67% total increase. Say what you will about the guy, he knew the value of compromise and working together.

 

Reagan WAS a rino. In todays political climate, the TP would be out to crucify him.

Think so? Well then, maybe you didn't know Ronald Reagan, but then again, you are a moderate?

 

 

 

[cal50]

Going back in time a few decades compared to today the mindset of the public is completely different and not in a good way IMHO. People could graduate from HS ( which is a feat in some areas today ) and find a middle class manufacturing job. Things were built here and bought here. Far less people on government subsidies aka the government teet. I think the majority of the population was headstrong NOT wanting to take something viewed as a handout. Today its rich vs poor / class warfare / victim payback / the government owes me mindset, etc.

 

Regan would not likely be elected today because many of the voters today are self serving , selfish or stupid people and look TO government to provide them with money , a job or things.

Its no different than taking a kindergarten class and having them vote to eat cupcakes or green beans for lunch. You have adult voters just as incapable of making a decision on what is really best vs what they want.

 

You can argue about social spending programs but welfare and corporate welfare should have its limits and no one in our government should spend $1 more than we take in, period.

 

 

Obama might be a fun guy to hang with but is grossly incompetent as president and has a fundamental problem with the basics like honesty, listening and actually speaking with ( not talking to ) people in the house & senate..

Regan \ Romeny both were governors and had experience working with divided government views, budgets and spending at the state level. Obama has negatively affected the economy of the entire USA.

 

Unless the next president , house and senate really get a handle on government spending this nation is doomed.

We will have a different president but the house and senate needs a massive enema but left to the not so bright voters and its more of the same.

[akirby]

Unless the next president , house and senate really get a handle on government spending this nation is doomed.

THIS!!!!! How anyone can possibly think it's ok for us to continue increasing the debt is beyond me.

We need business people running the country, not idealists and career politicians.

[the_spaniard]

Think so? Well then, maybe you didn't know Ronald Reagan, but then again, you are a moderate?

 

Nice speech, but I don't get misty over presidential speeches, particularly this one written by Peggy Noonan, who also wrote speeches for George Bush. She wrote a good speech, and his delivery was nice. But lets not pretend those are all his words from his heart. No presidential speech ever is. The world was very different in the 80's, and so was the US. As I have said before American exceptionalism is no different than any other flavor from any other country.

 

Nothing he stated in this video disputes anything of what I said. Any one of the things I mentioned that Reagan did would cause Ted Cruz the TP darling, to have kittens right now.

Edited May 29, 2014 by the_spaniard

[the_spaniard]

For me....or the other offenders?

I got lucky....and so did the other 150 passengers......this time. Return flight is my seconx chance.

 

Risky for you (bring backup drawers). Though the maximum exposure distance for other passengers due to flatulence in an aircraft has to be quite high given the confined space. A cost/benefit analysis may be necessary.

 

Be careful it does not turn into this.

Edited May 29, 2014 by the_spaniard

[NickF1011]

 

THIS!!!!! How anyone can possibly think it's ok for us to continue increasing the debt is beyond me.

We need business people running the country, not idealists and career politicians.

 

 

Yet thus far only ONE incumbent has been defeated in Congressional primaries in this election cycle. Holy hell our electorate is stupid.

[akirby]

Some are stupid and some only care about getting government handouts. Others think they have to vote for a Christian who will stop gay marriages and abortions.

 

Some think that corporations and rich people have taken something from them and the government must get it back.

[FiredMotorCompany]

 

Yet thus far only ONE incumbent has been defeated in Congressional primaries in this election cycle. Holy hell our electorate is stupid.

This isn't the first time. What do you expect when they depend on their t.v. and movie stars to tell them who to vote for. Or their Union Bosses, or their fear of being ostracized by their co-workers for not "going along with them"?

 

As I've said, I have more respect for the likes of our most recent banned personality due to their willingness to debate and defend his position, rather than just follow the "Anyone with a D beside their name" crib sheet shortcut.

[FiredMotorCompany]

Now, my blood pressure has gone sky high. The very thing many of us here were warning Obamacare would do, Democrats were fully aware of and deceitfully obfuscated.

As the author of the linked article accuses, it was without a doubt, FRAUD! Committed by an average citizen, it would lead to prosecution and public outrage. Committed by a, no THIS president and his congress, through the Commerce Clause,perpetrating a crime upon American citizens, with knowledge and intent. Yet nary a word of suspicion or derision, only collusion, from the democrats.


Dem Senator: 'We All Knew' Obama Was Lying

Senator Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY) admitted Sunday to knowing the promises President Obama made about his signature health care plan were false. On ABC’s This Week, fill-in host Martha Raddatz asked Gillibrand where she felt misled by Obama, considering the fact that the President said that Americans who wanted to keep their health care plans could do so. Gillibrand answered:

He should’ve just been more specific. Because the point is, if you’re being offered a terrible health care plan, that the minute you get sick you’re going to have to go into bankruptcy, those plans should never be offered.

Following up on an obvious non-answer, Raddatz asked again about being misled. This time, Gillibrand offered a startling revelation:

He should’ve just been specific. No, we all knew. The whole point of the plan is to cover things people need, like preventive care, birth control, pregnancy. How many women, the minute they get pregnant, might risk their coverage. How many women paid more because of their gender, because they might get pregnant. Those are the reforms.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2014 by FiredMotorCompany

[Edstock]

Amazing how all these conservatives want to keep decent health care away from the poor. Then again it's all part of the conservative mind-set which knows no borders, which gives us delights like this tragedy:

 

Bodies of 800 babies, long-dead, found in septic tank at former Irish home for unwed mothers

 

[NickF1011]

Just a wee bit of a red herring, don'tcha think? It is, however, a wonderful demonstration of that loving Catholic mentality that persists to this day.

[FiredMotorCompany]

Just a wee bit of a red herring, don'tcha think? It is, however, a wonderful demonstration of that loving Catholic mentality that persists to this day.

Not to turn it into a personal attack, but I see it as his modus operandi.

[Imawhosure]

Amazing how all these conservatives want to keep decent health care away from the poor. Then again it's all part of the conservative mind-set which knows no borders, which gives us delights like this tragedy:

 

Bodies of 800 babies, long-dead, found in septic tank at former Irish home for unwed mothers

 

And because nobody else will ask you; I will--------------> if we can't even take care of veterans under a government program, how is anybody supposed to believe that the government can make healthcare work for over 319 million people?

 

In this country, big government has failed by its own parameters. It can't take care of anything, without screwing the pooch. Many countries in Europe have figured this out, and are now throwing the socialists under the bus; which is exactly where they belong as far as I am concerned.

 

As soon as Canada allows illegal immigrants in, and then has a debate on if they should make them citizens, then call us. Until that time, you are comparing apples to oranges, and the only thing you are positive of is that they grow on trees!

[Edstock]

Just a wee bit of a red herring, don'tcha think? It is, however, a wonderful demonstration of that loving Catholic mentality that persists to this day.

 

 

Not to turn it into a personal attack, but I see it as his modus operandi.

 

No red herring of any kind. Religious conservatism knows no borders.

 

Most Americans have no clue as to the history of the fight against Protestant and Catholic religious fundamentalism in the US. Margaret Sanger was hounded by both, and had to flee the US for a time as the bigots howled.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger

 

Then, 100 years later, we get Rush Limbaugh calling a young woman a slut because she'd like birth control pills on a health plan. Ya gotta love them Christian Cons! :happy feet:

 

 

[NickF1011]

 

 

 

No red herring of any kind. Religious conservatism knows no borders.

 

Most Americans have no clue as to the history of the fight against Protestant and Catholic religious fundamentalism in the US. Margaret Sanger was hounded by both, and had to flee the US for a time as the bigots howled.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger

 

Then, 100 years later, we get Rush Limbaugh calling a young woman a slut because she'd like birth control pills on a health plan. Ya gotta love them Christian Cons! :happy feet:

 

 

 

...except that a great many American Catholics identify themselves as liberal. Hmmm.