RichardJensen Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Wranglers are insanely popular here as daily drivers. Let me explain this simply in one sentence: A legitimate alternative to the Wrangler will NOT be a slavish copy of it; it will do certain things better than the Wrangler. To elaborate: Those things are likely to revolve around livability, as--regardless of your perceptions--livability is the greatest weakness of the Wrangler, *especially* in cold weather climates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) @Kev-mo...IMO Jeep stays alive much as Harley, not because they are the ::best" as such, they most definitely are not....its all Image. Most Jeeps do NOT see conditions they are designed to excel in....and id go so far as to put it at 95% Edited February 17, 2015 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 All we're saying is Ford would be better off pursuing a vehicle that has 80% of Wrangler's off road abilities but has more creature comforts and better NVH so it would appeal to more buyers. It's like what they did with Mustang - it's 95% of what Camaro is on the track but it's much much better as a daily driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 @Kev-mo...IMO Jeep stays alive much as Harley, not because they are the ::best" as such, they most definitely are not....its all Image. Most Jeeps do NOT see conditions they are designed to excel in....and id go so far as to put it at 95% Strongly agree. Perception, image, and culture is a stronger driver of customers than being the best in many cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) All we're saying is Ford would be better off pursuing a vehicle that has 80% of Wrangler's off road abilities but has more creature comforts and better NVH so it would appeal to more buyers. It's like what they did with Mustang - it's 95% of what Camaro is on the track but it's much much better as a daily driver. Have to be careful to meet the price point. As I said before, there are a boat load of choices out there for off road capable vehicles - all the comforts make them very expensive. Ford already sells these. The basic Wrangler is affordable, and that is part of the appeal. I am also aware that the price of a Wrangler that is optioned out can get real big real fast. Edited February 17, 2015 by Kev-Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 as--regardless of your perceptions-- Well -there you have it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) all the comforts make them very expensive. Again, you're making this into a binary debate, with 'lots of creature comforts' on one side and 'cheap and affordable' on the other. Perhaps Ford sees an opportunity with a vehicle that has a fixed roof, a slightly longer WB and independent suspensions--a vehicle that would be significantly more liveable without being significantly more expensive. Edited February 17, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 --a vehicle that would be significantly more liveable without being significantly more expensive. Tremendous design challenge and opportunity - go for it! Can't wait to see the results. I was clear - "in the Bronco tradition, from a profitable company". Never said build a carbon copy of the Wrangler. So we agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 @Kirby....the Mustang version that WILL compete with the Camaro are coming, in the meantime the regular stangs are selling like hot cakes, point is there is room for two versions, livable and extreme @Kevmo....Jeeps are friggen EXPENSIVE, I've yet to see a cheap one, people seem to like blinging them out to look bad a$$,,,,,and then drive them much like Raptor owners ( ahem ) ie, in a grey landscape....urban warriors....so, that said...mainstream would make a better business case, and Ford Racing could have a parts bins for those that deem it necessary.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Dean - I just meant that Ford isn't going to sacrifice daily driveability just to provide an extra second off lap times to beat a Camaro. Because lap times don't sell vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 @Kirby.....tell that to the Mullet boys....lol...( I knew what you were pertaining too, Fords track warriors are comin for those with the need for bragging rights, small crowd though ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The funny part for me is the Camaro team still sees mustang as their competition while I'm pretty sure the Mustang team is looking far past Camaro and targeting more world class sports cars from the Germans, etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 If Ford builds a Ford Wrangler, that simply matches the Wrangle in every possible area, including off-road capability, what is the incentive for Wrangler users to switch? By switching, they would lose: Aftermarket potential - there is a ton of stuff you can buy aftermarket for a Wrangler that would not be there for a Ford Wrangler for many years to come. The people that care about this would NEVER switch anyway. Brand cachet - yes, Jeep has a huge brand cachet. What do you drive? A Jeep. Just like BMW, you don't drive a 3 series, you drive a BMW. Coolness - for some, it's just cool to drive a 'Jeep' By switching, they would gain: Ummmmmmmmmmmm.... The Ford brand - for a lot of us, that's a lot, but in the eyes of most, it would not be a gain Now, if Ford were to build a Wrangler that beat the Jeep in every area, but was slightly behind in off-road prowess, they would lose: Everything above A bit of off road capability, which most don't use anyway They would gain: Better on-road ride and handling Better NVH Better livability Better electronics Better MPG More power, better acceleration 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 It is different customer - different mind set. I have three acquaintances (family guys) that just purchased (Big $$$) Wranglers as their primary vehicle - their wives drive other cars. Help me understand why many comments here do not recognize other peoples perceptions as legit? Wranglers are insanely popular here as daily drivers. These people are as dumbfounded with your perception that nobody would want a Wrangler, as you are with the thought of somebody wanting one for a DD. Both sides are real. Can't we acknowledge that? To each their own - your perception of woefully inadequate is not the same as someone else's. Think Harley Davidson - noisy, uncomfortable, tedious maintenance, not the best reliability - does that stop customers from lining up to buy them? They ride them every single moment they can find the time. Many ride their bikes to and from work every single day it is seasonally permissible. It was 65+ degrees here in Denver over the weekend (sorry Boston), and the Harley's came out in full force - owners could not wait to be bounced, jostled, and vibrated to death- loving every minute of it! And the "can't compete" perception, Harley-Davidson of course, is historically one of the most coveted and revered brands in the world - didn't stop an already profitable Polaris from coming to the game and saying "...we want a piece of that market and can build competitive models..." Bottom line is that there are a boat load of "more livable but still off-road capable vehicles" to choose from, the Explorer included. But there is only one Jeep Wrangler (as perceived by customers) - and it is selling like crazy! It is my opinion that there is room to compete in this market with a real off-roader in the Bronco tradition, from a profitable company. I respect that other's opinions are different than mine. Due to geographical location, lifestyle, and personal preferences, they don't see the value in this type of vehicle, and their perceptions are legit. Probably the best post I've seen on BON in a long time. Thank you. We sometimes can be intolerant of other opinions around here, or at least it comes off that way in writing. If we were all sitting around having a beer and talking cars/trucks/bikes it would be less abrasive. Expression, body language and tone make a difference. Good comparison with the motorcycles. I've had a few of those to, loved those British bikes (Triumph) and as far as performance you cant beat a bang-for-your-buck ride like the Triumph Speed Triple. But I'm 6'1" and old so I find my Harley Wide Glide fun these days. Besides, I'm partial to American machines. My black Wide glide and my wife's pink flamed 1200 Sportster: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Tremendous design challenge and opportunity - go for it! Can't wait to see the results. I was clear - "in the Bronco tradition, from a profitable company". Never said build a carbon copy of the Wrangler. So we agree. Right. My original post was addressing F250, who insisted that any Wrangler competitor would need removable doors/top. My seat of the pants take on that is that this 'feature' is not universally loved in cold climates. Edited February 17, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Right. My original post was addressing F250, who insisted that any Wrangler competitor would need removable doors/top. My seat of the pants take on that is that this 'feature' is not universally loved in cold climates. I dont recall saying doors. Top yes. My old 1972 IH Scout II had a removable top. It was steel. Yes, steel...I removed it once while I owned it. Only once damn thing weighed a ton. Edited February 17, 2015 by F250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 for F250.......85000 miles not one issue, not even a valve adjustment..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 I dont recall saying doors. Top yes. My old 1972 IH Scout II had a removable top. It was steel. Yes, steel...I removed it once while I owned it. Only once damn thing weighed a ton. Right, you did not insist on removable doors. My mistake there. However, if you insist on a fully removable top, you might as well buy Jeeps wholesale and slap Ford badges on them and try to resell them, because there are so many compromises in terms of livability that go along with removable/optional tops, that you're basically limiting your market to people who love Wranglers. How about, instead of trying to out Wrangler the Wrangler, you come up with things that the Wrangler isn't very good at, that people want, and do those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 As a person who has been exploring buying a jeep lately, and as a person who loves ford products, I would not consider buying a bronco unless it had a removable top. I think this is one of the primary reasons people buy them. I live in a cold environment, and I see tons of jeeps, so it must not be an issue for these owners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 for F250.......85000 miles not one issue, not even a valve adjustment..... Now you be careful young man those damn motorcycles are dangerous! Nice bike, don't see many Aprilias around here (Virginia Beach) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I rode in the back of a 4-door Jeep Wrangler with the top removed. I would not do that to ANYONE! Not even as punishment for my kids when they are being complete jerks to each other! Absolutely horrible! Wait, maybe this was just the one with the zip back roof? Hell, I don't remember. I just remember how horrible of an experience it was for me. That 1 hour road seemed like 3 weeks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 As a person who has been exploring buying a jeep lately, and as a person who loves ford products, I would not consider buying a bronco unless it had a removable top. I think this is one of the primary reasons people buy them. I live in a cold environment, and I see tons of jeeps, so it must not be an issue for these owners. And if you decide to get the hardtop the front section is easily removable like T-tops on an 80's Mustang. Some people have both tops and just bolt the hard top on for the winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Ford will not be looking to sell this in the US only so one of the things we have to keep in mind while speculating is what other markets will demand of this Bronco. Ford already sells (or will begin selling) Everest everywhere except North America. It's obvious that Ford sees an opportunity that it cannot address with Everest so what it is that opportunity? In my opinion, it is basically styling... Everest will provide most of the off-road chops and on-road manners that some of you already pin pointed. All that remains, is a top hat design that is more emotionally rooted in the Bronco name. I don't think retro is going to do it but definitely something more butch looking than the Everest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Right, you did not insist on removable doors. My mistake there. However, if you insist on a fully removable top, you might as well buy Jeeps wholesale and slap Ford badges on them and try to resell them, because there are so many compromises in terms of livability that go along with removable/optional tops, that you're basically limiting your market to people who love Wranglers. How about, instead of trying to out Wrangler the Wrangler, you come up with things that the Wrangler isn't very good at, that people want, and do those things. I like you Richard. I know I can type until my fingers bleed and never get you to move an inch on your opinion. That's cool, it's a BON thing. I will blast you back with a reminder the original Bronco had a removable top and was not a rebadged Jeep. Your turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 As a person who has been exploring buying a jeep lately, and as a person who loves ford products, I would not consider buying a bronco unless it had a removable top. I think this is one of the primary reasons people buy them. I live in a cold environment, and I see tons of jeeps, so it must not be an issue for these owners. I don't see nearly as many Jeeps as I would expect to see, given that they're selling 175k/year. The removable hard top is obviously not a deal breaker for Jeep buyers---but you have to ask how many people 'put up' with that aspect of the Jeep experience, and how many people refrain from buying a Jeep for that reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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