DC Car Examiner Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 (edited) "The ranks of midsize family sedans are filled with competitive and popular models from around the world: the U.S., Japan, Korea, and Germany. But in the popular mindset – and on the sales charts – two models routinely stand out from the rest. That's the Toyota Camry, for years the best-selling passenger car in the United States, and the Honda Accord, often its runner-up and a reliable recipient of critical acclaim. The “CamCord,” as they're sometimes collectively known. However, in many ways, recent Camrys and Accords were resting on their laurels. The last Camry wasn't especially nice to drive, didn't have a very nice interior, and had failed one of its crash tests. Accords have at times been overpriced, and haven't always offered the fun-to-drive character that Honda promised was the tradeoff for a less-than-cushy ride quality. One of these cars was in last place in each of this reviewer's last two comparisons of midsize sedans: the Accord in 2010 and the Camry in 2013. Honda and Toyota have since turned those cars around. This assessment is based on back-to-back test drives of the Accord, Camry, and eight competing midsize sedans; an analysis of their prices, fuel economy, and safety ratings; and the impressions gleaned from those drives. These two sedans at last live up to their reputations – the Accord for blending driving enjoyment with everyday versatility and value, the Camry for exchanging spice for a mastery of such mainstream values as comfort and usability. In the final rankings for this comparison, the Accord placed No. 1 in the class and the Camry placed No. 2." Continued at link: http://www.examiner.com/list/comparison-review-ten-2015-midsize-sedans-the-best-and-the-worst (I have the Fusion in No. 3, by the way -- still quite nice, though it's less endearing with cloth.) For anyone keeping score, this comparison also has new type of ranking and rating chart, a revised format for the full reviews of the individual cars. Feedback welcome. Edited July 3, 2015 by DC Car Examiner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Nice work, DC Car Examiner! Thumbs up for the new format of your ratings chart; I appreciate its concise and straightforward presentation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luv4beer Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Do the categories have unequal weighting factors? For example, does the 'Comfort/luxury' category bear more importance than 'Fuel economy'? Or is the 'Overall' category just your overall impression and not an exact tally of the rankings? Not trying to poke holes but just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Car Examiner Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) Do the categories have unequal weighting factors? For example, does the 'Comfort/luxury' category bear more importance than 'Fuel economy'? Or is the 'Overall' category just your overall impression and not an exact tally of the rankings? Not trying to poke holes but just curious. Yeah, in the article explaining each of the factors, it clarifies that it's not a numerical calculation -- "overall" is just as much of a judgment call as the individual categories, except based on an overall impression of the car as opposed to an overall impression of its comfort/luxury or its driving dynamics. :-) http://www.examiner.com/article/comparison-review-ten-2015-midsize-sedans-ratings And for chart fans, there's another here (also with explanations): http://www.examiner.com/article/comparison-review-ten-2015-midsize-sedans-rankings Edited July 4, 2015 by DC Car Examiner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Safety rating and (fuel economy - if the ratings are EPA) are the only points with any merits, the rest are just your opinion & preferences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Safety rating and (fuel economy - if the ratings are EPA) are the only points with any merits, the rest are just your opinion & preferences. The same could be said of any car review. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 The same could be said of any car review. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Exactly. So what's the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) Safety rating and (fuel economy - if the ratings are EPA) are the only points with any merits, the rest are just your opinion & preferences. Which are important to people interested in buying the vehicles, the issue is bias and removing views not aligned with those of potential buyers. I think the calls are reasonable and backed up with explanation so that anyone interested in a particular vehicles can follow up with a physical check and either agree or dismiss. Edited July 5, 2015 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 So what's the problem? I wonder if Brady wears suede loafers, we that sets of certain posters....ahem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Car Examiner Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 I wonder if Brady wears suede loafers, we that sets of certain posters....ahem Either this is especially random or my Walmart boot/sneaker hybrid was spotted in one of the photos. Fear not, no fashion consciousness went into that shoe -- as my fiancee readily attests. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Either this is especially random or my Walmart boot/sneaker hybrid was spotted in one of the photos. Fear not, no fashion consciousness went into that shoe -- as my fiancee readily attests. Don't worry, it had nothing to do with you. Carry-over from another discussion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Don't worry, it had nothing to do with you. Carry-over from another discussion But if the shoe fits..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedingtones Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Wow the I didn't know that the Nissan Altima has the best fuel economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Yawn... Another NISHONTOYUBARUZDA wins the appliance shootout. Broken record for the last 15 years. Why bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Car Examiner Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 Yawn... Another NISHONTOYUBARUZDA wins the appliance shootout. Broken record for the last 15 years. Why bother. There were some Accord and Camry duds during that time, and at times I had one of each model in last place (2010 Accord, 2013 Camry). They've improved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang84isu Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) I had a 2015 Camry XSE V6 as a rental recently, and I was surprised how cheap the interior is for being an upper trim level. Between clumsy exterior design (fish mouth and blacked-out C-pillar, same tired greenhouse from 2007) and the cheap interior, there is no way I would give it 2nd place on a midsize shopping list. It feels warmed over, and it kind of is. Edited July 11, 2015 by mustang84isu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Car Examiner Posted July 11, 2015 Author Share Posted July 11, 2015 I had a 2015 Camry XSE V6 as a rental recently, and I was surprised how cheap the interior is for being an upper trim level. Between clumsy exterior design (fish mouth and blacked-out C-pillar, same tired greenhouse from 2007) and the cheap interior, there is no way I would give it 2nd place on a midsize shopping list. It feels warmed over, and it kind of is. I agree -- among upper trim levels, the Camry's interior gets to be a problem. It's less so on the base/near base models, though, which was what was in this test, though it's still listed in the review as one of the reasons not to buy a Camry. Styling, meanwhile, is something folks can and will make their own judgments about, though the review does also note the fake window on the C-pillar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I had a 2015 Camry XSE V6 as a rental recently Wow, you got a XSE V6 model as your rental car? That's noteworthy, as highline Camry models such as XSE V6 (model 2550) and XLE V6 (model 2554) are relatively rare in the ordering pipeline for commercial and rental fleet customers. Did you rent from a Toyota dealership? The few Camrys of recent vintage I've rented from major rental firms (Enterprise Holdings and Hertz) were all LE or SE 4-cylinder models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Brady Thanks for sharing and while I don't agree with the order of your list I appreciate you taking the time and putting this together. I like the fact you reference actual transaction prices since this can impact the price of a vehicle considerably. Few points though and I have been in everyone and have rented most of them with my business travels 1. I don't understand your reference to the Optima? An Optime EX falls right in the middle and has a ton of standard features. Pricing is around $22.5K and the size is almost identical to the Sonata and certainly bigger than the 200. 2. Not sure how you can claim the Accord #1 and than the Camry #2. While you can make a very strong argument for the Honda, the Camry is down near the Altima. Sure it has great fonts on the center console and is easy to drive. But the interior quality is average at best, it rides like a Buick (which is not bad if that is your thing but it rides completely opposite of the Accord) and the power train is on the rough side. I spent a week in a Camry XSE and generally liked it but it has no personality or any suprise and delight features. Safety gear was basic and I kept getting it confused with a Corolla-my fault, mind you-not yours. 3. The Mazda 6 finishng in 5th place is the biggest suprise here. Not sure what or where you drove but it drives better than these cars I have driven (Camry, Fusion, 200, Sonata, Nissan and Passat). Surely it has to drive better than the Malibu as well. Plus the intangibles in that vehicle surely make it better than where it placed. It has back up camera, lane departure and smart key standard. The new interface is large and hooks up quickly. The back seat is average but it is far from small. Plus the interior quality looks like something costing $10K more-at least in my opion. All windows are 1 up/down, it has electronic parking brake and gas mileage is excellent. It is the only vehicle with updates for 2016 so it does not have as many current incentives. Their current incentives are geared towards the 2015 models and change every 60 days (currently Mazda runs a 60 day campaign) 4. Mostly agree with your comments on the Fusion. I hate their current gauge set up which is dominated by the needle! Ughh-drives me crazy but Ford has been doing that for years. The base engine is exactly like you stated-rough and getting rougher as it ages. Will be interesting to see what Ford does with Malibu coming with a standard turbo motor. Here is how I would of scored the list (just my opinion!!!!) 1. Mazda 6 2. Honda Accord 3. Subaru Legacy 4. Fusion 5. 200 6. Sonata 7. Malibu 8.Camry 9. Altima 10. Passat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Car Examiner Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 ^Very thoughtful look at the market -- I'll explain where I can. In running a comparison, I pick a group of features that would be reasonably expected in a given class so that the cars can be comparably equipped; in this case, one of those was a sunroof, though several of the cars only let you get one if you basically loaded up the car with everything else. The Passat and Sonata were two of those, but they're too important to the class right now to exclude because of it. However, the Optima was a third, and because it's about to be replaced anyway and the Optima LX is only comparably priced to the Sonata SE (it's true that leather can come more cheaply), it just didn't seem like it was about to be a standout. The Mazda6 was another car that might have done a little better if a different set of features had been chosen, but in part it's the reduced incentives like you said -- which would still be a factor to someone buying now. The other issue with the Mazda6 is that I have never had much fun driving the current generation. That's after two dealer test drives of 2014s, a week in a 2015, and now a dealer test drive of a '16. I have a weeklong 2016 test scheduled next month as I continue to try and figure out what people are loving about this car; it's not like I don't like the rest of the Mazda line, either. The review acknowledges that this might just be a personal issue, but it would feel like bias to just give it the benefit of the doubt. As far as the Camry, I didn't find it to be floaty and squishy compared to the 2007-2011 generation, which was soft and not competitive from a handling perspective. And it also improved upon the 2012-14 for ride quality and steering response -- I was taken aback by how much more pleasant this car had gotten, as there wasn't really anything about the pre-update that I enjoyed from a driving perspective. The Camry got better at pretty much everything but luxury qualities like the best interior and the quietest engine, as indeed you mentioned. Accordingly, my separate ranking order that gives more weight to luxury puts the Camry in 7th place, pretty similar to your conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 ^Very thoughtful look at the market -- I'll explain where I can. In running a comparison, I pick a group of features that would be reasonably expected in a given class so that the cars can be comparably equipped; in this case, one of those was a sunroof, though several of the cars only let you get one if you basically loaded up the car with everything else. The Passat and Sonata were two of those, but they're too important to the class right now to exclude because of it. However, the Optima was a third, and because it's about to be replaced anyway and the Optima LX is only comparably priced to the Sonata SE (it's true that leather can come more cheaply), it just didn't seem like it was about to be a standout. The Mazda6 was another car that might have done a little better if a different set of features had been chosen, but in part it's the reduced incentives like you said -- which would still be a factor to someone buying now. The other issue with the Mazda6 is that I have never had much fun driving the current generation. That's after two dealer test drives of 2014s, a week in a 2015, and now a dealer test drive of a '16. I have a weeklong 2016 test scheduled next month as I continue to try and figure out what people are loving about this car; it's not like I don't like the rest of the Mazda line, either. The review acknowledges that this might just be a personal issue, but it would feel like bias to just give it the benefit of the doubt. As far as the Camry, I didn't find it to be floaty and squishy compared to the 2007-2011 generation, which was soft and not competitive from a handling perspective. And it also improved upon the 2012-14 for ride quality and steering response -- I was taken aback by how much more pleasant this car had gotten, as there wasn't really anything about the pre-update that I enjoyed from a driving perspective. The Camry got better at pretty much everything but luxury qualities like the best interior and the quietest engine, as indeed you mentioned. Accordingly, my separate ranking order that gives more weight to luxury puts the Camry in 7th place, pretty similar to your conclusion. If you are looking for a overly sporty zoom-zoom from the Mazda than you will be disappointed. As you know they have embraced the skyactiv package and it does not emphasize the quickness of the vehicle. But I find the Mazda has the best balance of all things working together. The chasis is very composed and somewhat stiff, the engine has adaquate power (if you drive the vehicle hard-buy the Fusion), transmission shifts excellent (unlike the 200 where it is almost dangerous when you need to get up and running and the vehicle just sits there for a few seconds), brakes well and it is very well balanced-19" wheels/tires on the touring model.. The vehicle feels light but not tingy-and when I am getting almost 40mpg it is very satisfying (I drove it from DC to Detroit and averaged 39.4 using gallons and miles driven-not the trip computer). I guess the nice thing about today's vehicles is everyone of them are damn good. They are getting refreshed every 3 years or so (mild updates) and pricing has stabilized with all the competition. I could buy any of them and be happy with my purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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