2016 Mustang GT vs. 2016 Camaro SS mag comparos

[MY93SHO]

There seems to be a lot of apples vs oranges comparisons in this thread; comparing outward visability of the 2015 Camaro instead of the 2016's version, GT350 and GT500 versions which, based on pricing and intended use might better be compared to a Corvette, missing tonneau cover in the Mustang convertible, missing CD player, aging styling.

 

As for weight savings, how about dropping 3 camshafts and the hundred pounds they and the related valvetrain bits represent? Then start in on the overbite front overhang, push the wheelbase out to the front, bettering handling and weight distribution.

 

I thought Ford and GM were working on new transmissions as part of a joint partnership...why does only GM seem to have gotten the advanced transmissions into real life use?

So you think visibility on the 2016 is better? How so?

 

Considering your past predictions you may want to tread lightly.

[Sizzler]

So you think visibility on the 2016 is better? How so?

 

Considering your past predictions you may want to tread lightly.

Enlighten me about past predictions. And remember that predictions are not the same as observations.

[Edstock]

As for weight savings, how about dropping 3 camshafts and the hundred pounds they and the related valvetrain bits represent?

 

Pushrods? Not gonna happen.

[Edstock]

Enlighten me about past predictions. And remember that predictions are not the same as observations.

 

" Sizzler "...and 412hp is all you'll ever see from this engine.I'd rather have potential. The 5.0 is the very definition of being at death's door with no place to go.

 

Deanh has that gem. Is that one of yours?

[Sizzler]

" Sizzler "...and 412hp is all you'll ever see from this engine.I'd rather have potential. The 5.0 is the very definition of being at death's door with no place to go.[/size]

 

Deanh has that gem. Is that one of yours? [/size]

I have no idea, and I don't care enough to track it down. Let him give us the details. Has to be several years old though. Is he still upset about hanging chads?

[akirby]

I have no idea, and I don't care enough to track it down. Let him give us the details. Has to be several years old though. Is he still upset about hanging chads?

You said the coyote wasn't capable of more than 412 hp. Yet there are blown versions all over the place putting out 700 hp with no internal mods.

[papilgee4evaeva]

I can confirm. That was you.

 

Conveniently, we hadn't seen you around here since the Boss 302 came out. Hmm.

[Sizzler]

You said the coyote wasn't capable of more than 412 hp. Yet there are blown versions all over the place putting out 700 hp with no internal mods.

"Blown versions"... and it's been long enough are you sure I was talking about the Coyote and not the Modular?

 

And seriously, are you really so bent about this?

[akirby]

Yes and yes.

[MY93SHO]

"Blown versions"... and it's been long enough are you sure I was talking about the Coyote and not the Modular?

 

And seriously, are you really so bent about this?

Unfortunately for you we know exactly what you were talking about. Seems your extended hiatus hasn't helped you in that respect.

[RichardJensen]

Being all excited because a 7L motor is about as powerful as a 5.2L is, well............

 

It's about the same as being all excited because a 6.2L motor is about as powerful as a 5.0L.

[Sizzler]

I really really,don't remember what this could be about. The 7l reference above makes me think it had something to do with the Hurricane engine, a FORD engine. You all have a problem with me liking a FORD engine?!

[Fgts]

Lol, this is why I'd stayed out this booby trap on a Ford site. Each car have it's advantages and disadvantages on the street, price and the course.

[jpd80]

Some torque curves:

 

[RichardJensen]

I really really,don't remember what this could be about. The 7l reference above makes me think it had something to do with the Hurricane engine, a FORD engine. You all have a problem with me liking a FORD engine?!

 

This:

 

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/37110-first-pics-of-the-50/?p=583630

 

and 412hp is all you'll ever see from this engine. that's after the better part of a year of programming the PCM to ride the knock sensor spike by spike in order to survive on pump gas at 11:1 compression. The 5.? Boss COULD be bored out to 7L, it has, and it HAS produced over 700 HP. If you are satisfied with 412 hp and no potential for more, then the 5.0 is your engine. If you dream of what might be, what might have been, then mourn Ford's decision to prop up the modular for a few more years to keep a V8 in the Mustang. Because that's the only reason it's still around. As for durability? Large oil capacity is there to mask oiling issues. And what will the durability be for knock sensors that are constantly firing? And how does a knock sensor affect performance? It backs off on timing, reducing power output. Wonder how long 412hp will be available once you drive away from the dealer? 1,000 miles? Down the block? During cool days in Michigan?

 

I'd rather have potential. The 5.0 is the very definition of being at death's door with no place to go.

 

 

Your disdain for one of Ford's most successful V8s is well documented, and it causes all of us to discount anything you have to say about it.

[RichardJensen]

Because not only is that 5.0L in the Mustang 6 years later, it's in the F150 doing real-world work. And a modified version of it that retains everything you hate about the Mods is making better than 500hp naturally aspirated w/an 8500RPM redline.

[fordmantpw]

Because not only is that 5.0L in the Mustang 6 years later, it's in the F150 doing real-world work. And a modified version of it that retains everything you hate about the Mods is making better than 500hp naturally aspirated w/an 8500RPM redline.

 

And going toe to toe with an engine 1.8L larger in a Camaro.

 

Yeah, that Coyote is such a flop!

[Sizzler]

I was pretty harsh back then, and apparently knew a lot of intimate details about its inner failings. But sorry, without the new Coyote block casting, the Modular was at, or very near its apex. And no matter what desperate project managers have managed to wring and cajole out of it, I still, PERSONALLY, don't like it. Is that OK, or must one pledge allegiance to the Mod in order to keep the tweeny girl populace from pulling my hair and saying mean things about me?

 

And, please note that the Voodoo is an extremely limited production engine, with no real world history of longevity, made possible only by removing the block's cylinder liners and spraying a bore liner in there, rendering the block a throwaway in case of any nicks or cuts to the bores of this RACE-purposed engine (which will never, of course happen).

 

I applaud Ford's yeoman efforts to keep the engine alive, like I would applaud any team of medical professionals able to keep a patient alive. All hail the Mod team!

 

Where exactly in the Ford universe is this engine still actually being installed, and for how much longer? I don't know because I haven't seen it offered in any vehicles I've shopped.

 

Same arguments can be had about Harley vs Ducati. Whatever. I do believe that the dyno curves posted above show the Ford engine down throughout, except at race-only rpm levels, and only 5% of cars sold nowadays ever see a track. Seriously, I hurt your feelings that much, that you nurse a grudge 6 years later?

Edited November 28, 2015 by Sizzler

[RichardJensen]

I still, PERSONALLY, don't like it. Is that OK

Where exactly in the Ford universe is this engine still actually being installed, and for how much longer? I don't know because I haven't seen it offered in any vehicles I've shopped.

 

It's fine to dislike it. It's another matter entirely to indict the design of the engine without proof--or to do as you did once again in this post--insult people who disagree with you.

 

"I really don't like the Jeep Cherokee. I think it's ugly, and I don't understand why people are buying it"

 

vs.

 

"The Jeep Cherokee is a crap car that isn't a real Jeep and the people that buy it are tools and wannabes"

 

---

 

Also, FYI, the Coyote is still being used in both the F150 & the Mustang with no discernible EOL. Based on details of the UAW contract, it's going to outlive the Boss (Hurricane) engine.

 

Also, also, FYI, the Plasma Transfer cylinder liner process, apparently your 'spray-in' cylinder liner, as discussed here: http://articles.sae.org/7624/, has been used by Ford and Nissan since 2010--on, for instance, the supercharged 5.8L GT-500. The process may end up used on high volume Ford motors in time.

 

BTW: Changes in the block casting on the Coyote weren't exactly earth-shaking: It's still a gigantic motor with the same bore spacing, the same deep skirt, the same extreme deck height:stroke ratio, the heads are still enormous and they still use finger followers instead of DAMBs.

Edited November 28, 2015 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

And it's not exactly like the Mod's being kept on life support here.

 

When was the last time a GM or Chrysler engine had a higher specific output than a Mod?

[Edstock]

made possible only by removing the block's cylinder liners and spraying a bore liner in there, rendering the block a throwaway in case of any nicks or cuts to the bores of this RACE-purposed engine (which will never, of course happen).

 

IIRC, Ford has developed a technique for re-application for engine rebuilders, who wish to invest in the plasma liner technology, rendering the block rebuildable in case of any nicks or cuts to the bores.

[Sizzler]

Looking at the copy of my original post, it seems I offered a lot of specific issues ('proof'if you will).

 

As you yourself state, the plasma coating is a low-volume procedure.

The high-specific whatever engine is a very-low-volume engine.

It seems to me that the comparison is being made between a relatively high-production, everyday engine, and a purpose-built race engine. What are the plans for installation of the Voodoo in other Ford vehicles?

And the idea of a large displacement, flat plane Ford V8 is not new, I've had a set of flat plane headers for a 427 Tunnelport pass through my hands.

 

IIRC, Ford has developed a technique for re-application for engine rebuilders, who wish to invest in the plasma liner technology, rendering the block rebuildable in case of any nicks or cuts to the bores.

Key phrase being those "who wish to invest" in an extremely low-demand service. In reality, there is little chance of finding someone to repair such a block...just ask BMW service managers. It's "throwaway and replace".

 

I'm sorry if I hurt someone's feelings.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Sizzler

[RichardJensen]

None of those issues that you raised were backed up by an ounce of supporting evidence, thus they do not constitute 'proof'.

 

FYI: "Specific output" = "power / displacement" -- It's not just high performance mods that have a higher specific output than LS motors.

 

If you want to talk about 'high production, everyday engines', then let's talk about the 5.0L in the F150 as compared to the 5.3 & 6.2L LS in the Silverado.

 

Specific output of the 5.0L: 385hp / 5.0L = 77hp/L

 

Specific output of the 6.2L: 420hp / 6.2L = 67hp/L

Specific output of the 5.3L: 355hp / 5.3L = 67hp/L

 

So, what, again were you saying about low-production vs. high production engines?

 

Added bonus:

 

Specific output of the Mustang GT 5.0L: 435hp / 5.0L = 87hp/L

Camaro 6.2L: 455hp / 6.2L = 73hp/L

 

In 'high performance' tune, the specific output of the 6.2L in the Camaro is LESS than that of the 5.0L in the F150!!!!!!!!!

Edited November 28, 2015 by RichardJensen

[Edstock]

just ask BMW service managers. It's "throwaway and replace".

 

Well, as we are talking about Ford engines and a Ford-developed process, probably asking Ford would make more sense, IMHO. I'm sorry if I made you defensive and evasive.

[Sizzler]

HP per displacement doesn't really mean a lot in the real world when, in the real world, others have MORE displacement.

 

You aren't pulling or accelerating with a ratio, it's the answer to the overall equation that moves things along. And it's not in the rpm stratosphere that the numbers matter, just talk to Honda folk about how well-received (in the real world, by real people) their high-revving S2000 was.

 

Seriously, I'm starting to think you have a mod motor snuggle pillow. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but by the same token, I should be entitled to mine.

 

Could someone do the math for me please? 237HP from 2L. I eyeball that to be almost 120HP per liter. Is that any good? That's what the Honda S2000 was making in the 100,000 engines sold under warranty...they had a redline of over 8,000.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Sizzler