Parked next to a new Fusion....

[Ovaltine]

I parked my new-design 2005 KIA Spectra next to an attractive new silver Ford Fusion SEL today at work.

 

The Fusion appeared to be very nice. The Fusion (and 500 for that matter) really do show *huge* improvements in Ford product (at least on the surface). That cannot be denied.

 

But why is it that I can find several "little" things about the Fusion that's missing (IMHO), and that even KIA has managed to nail????

 

For instance.....

 

1. Why does a $13k KIA have a locking gas filler door (w/convenient release), and the $20k+ Fusion has a simple standard flip open filler door???? In this day and age of inflating gas prices, I'd be having to buy a locking gas cap at Murray's for my Fusion and dealing with the hassle of keeping a set of keys in the car, etc.

 

2. Why does the Fusion have thin outer rubber seals that stick up past the door frame (next to the window) on all four doors, but my KIA's same seals are seated perfectly next to the window and frame in perfect symetry and with perfect fit?

 

 

Since I haven't sat in or ridden in a Fusion yet, I can't make any further comparisons. But I will say that when the panel gaps, paint, and general fit and finish of Korea's supposed "bottom end" manufacturer starts coming close or surpassing the quality of any of the major players, then those major players need to ratchet it up another notch or two.

 

-Ovaltine

[foxrun]

I parked my new-design 2005 KIA Spectra next to an attractive new silver Ford Fusion SEL today at work.

 

The Fusion appeared to be very nice. The Fusion (and 500 for that matter) really do show *huge* improvements in Ford product (at least on the surface). That cannot be denied.

 

But why is it that I can find several "little" things about the Fusion that's missing (IMHO), and that even KIA has managed to nail????

 

For instance.....

 

1. Why does a $13k KIA have a locking gas filler door (w/convenient release), and the $20k+ Fusion has a simple standard flip open filler door???? In this day and age of inflating gas prices, I'd be having to buy a locking gas cap at Murray's for my Fusion and dealing with the hassle of keeping a set of keys in the car, etc.

 

2. Why does the Fusion have thin outer rubber seals that stick up past the door frame (next to the window) on all four doors, but my KIA's same seals are seated perfectly next to the window and frame in perfect symetry and with perfect fit?

Since I haven't sat in or ridden in a Fusion yet, I can't make any further comparisons. But I will say that when the panel gaps, paint, and general fit and finish of Korea's supposed "bottom end" manufacturer starts coming close or surpassing the quality of any of the major players, then those major players need to ratchet it up another notch or two.

 

-Ovaltine

 

Your kidding right?

[one2gamble]

1. Why does a $13k KIA have a locking gas filler door (w/convenient release), and the $20k+ Fusion has a simple standard flip open filler door???? In this day and age of inflating gas prices, I'd be having to buy a locking gas cap at Murray's for my Fusion and dealing with the hassle of keeping a set of keys in the car, etc.

 

why does it matter, you cant siphon the gas

[Ovaltine]

Your kidding right?

 

No....... I'm not.

 

Re-read the post, and I think you may understand my point.

 

I'm NOT trying to say that my Spectra is a superior car to the Fusion on an overall basis. BUT in a brief 3 minute close-up inspection I was able to observe the two deficiencies mentioned above. What I observed and documented is true.

 

Incidentally, have you seen, driven, or ridden in a new KIA Spectra lately? Check this post out (about 1/4 way down) where I posted some info and pics about the latest redesigned KIA products: http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=679

 

I think you'll be a little surprised.

 

-Ovaltine

Edited January 5, 2006 by Ovaltine

[Ovaltine]

why does it matter, you cant siphon the gas

 

Here's a good link about fuel security: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005...ng_gas_cap.html

 

It does appear that auto makers have put anti-siphon devices on cars for awhile (something I didn't know!), but the above link also has some good info about why locking caps or doors are nice to have for keeping vandals away from your fuel filler neck.

 

All in all.... given the choice of a locking door or not, I'll go with the locking door.

 

 

This quote from the above article says a mouthful.

 

"Here in Australia, as in Europe, either locking or internally controlled doors over the fuel cap have been standard on most models for so long that now it's getting somewhat rare to see even an old bomb without one. "

Edited January 5, 2006 by Ovaltine

[RichardJensen]

Well, first off, I'm having a hard time understanding the one about the rubber stripping. Secondly, Ford for some reason or another, doesn't have very many models equipped with remote fuel doors. GM on the other hand has had them for years, on such otherwise crappy models as the Grand Am and a whole host of Saturns. Remote fuel doors neither make nor break the model, IMO. And, I believe, rarely affect buying decisions.

 

The absence of them is, however, something of an annoyance; seeing that I had a '92 Tempo with one, and a '98 Contour and '00 Sable without. I would rather Ford include them, but I'm not going to consider it a major shortcoming if they don't.

 

The excess rubber on the Fusion door frame could be, if it's what I'm thinking it is (a rubber gasket that extends upward onto the doorframe along the top of the side windows), there to reduce windnoise and provide better weather sealing. It is likely not a cost cutting measure, seeing that it greatly increases the amount of rubber used in the part, and may also increase assembly time.

 

...

[sullynd]

The absence of them is, however, something of an annoyance; seeing that I had a '92 Tempo with one, and a '98 Contour and '00 Sable without. I would rather Ford include them, but I'm not going to consider it a major shortcoming if they don't.

 

The odd thing is Ford does include them on some models, but just not on the NA version.

 

NA Mazda Tribute has a remote fuel door, the Escape and Mariner built on the same line do not. The Escape/Maverick however outside the US DOES have a fuel door.

 

There have been a couple people on escape-central who have retrofitted their Escapes with remote fuel doors from the UK (The door itself is different from the Tribute, the rest of the tribute mechanism can be used in the conversion, just the door itself needs to come from the UK).

[Ovaltine]

The excess rubber on the Fusion door frame could be, if it's what I'm thinking it is (a rubber gasket that extends upward onto the doorframe along the top of the side windows), there to reduce windnoise and provide better weather sealing. It is likely not a cost cutting measure, seeing that it greatly increases the amount of rubber used in the part, and may also increase assembly time.

 

 

I should have added that the "sticking up" condition I described was occurring only in the corners of the window where the vertical and upper horizontal planes meet. In each corner the gasket went from being flush along where the glass and frame met, to protruding out (and somewhat over) by 2 or 3 16ths of an inch. The protrusion (IMHO) is most definitely a *slight* case of sloppy design/fit, since the same areas (with a similar design) on my KIA are perfectly flat and fitted.

 

Again, I only use this comparison as an example litmus test of "state-of-the-art" Ford against the supposed "bottom-feeder" KIA.

 

-Ovaltine

Edited January 5, 2006 by Ovaltine

[Ovaltine]

I have never seen the need for a locking fuel door. I had one on my '95 SHO, but I found it to be a nuisance. Would this be a deal breaker for you, if everything else between the two cars were identical? Just out of curiosity, why do you feel a locking gas cap is important?

 

 

No..... a fuel filler door isn't a deal breaker. Again... I'm using this as a "standard features" litmus test between a top-line Fusion SEL and lower-end car. The question being begged is, "Why DOESN'T the Fusion have one?"

 

And, if you reference the bolded part of post #5 above, you'll see my reasoning on why I think a door is still a good idea.

 

-Ovaltine

 

 

 

The odd thing is Ford does include them on some models, but just not on the NA version.

 

NA Mazda Tribute has a remote fuel door, the Escape and Mariner built on the same line do not. The Escape/Maverick however outside the US DOES have a fuel door.

 

This is an interesting fact.

 

From it I surmise that foreign buyers of these products AND U.S. purchasers of "import" brands (i.e. Mazda) expect this feature.

 

Is it such a long stretch then to surmise that such a feature wouldn't then be welcomed on a "World Class" car like the Fusion???

 

Today's mantra is: Perception of value...... value of perception........ perception of value...... :P

 

-Ovaltine

[NLPRacing]

Well, first off, I'm having a hard time understanding the one about the rubber stripping. Secondly, Ford for some reason or another, doesn't have very many models equipped with remote fuel doors. GM on the other hand has had them for years, on such otherwise crappy models as the Grand Am and a whole host of Saturns. Remote fuel doors neither make nor break the model, IMO. And, I believe, rarely affect buying decisions.

 

The absence of them is, however, something of an annoyance; seeing that I had a '92 Tempo with one, and a '98 Contour and '00 Sable without. I would rather Ford include them, but I'm not going to consider it a major shortcoming if they don't.

 

...

 

My 89 Mustang had one. my 90 Festiva has one and my 01 Mustang does not. I found it so annoying to try and remember to pop the fuel door on my 89 Mustang that I ended up bending the bracket so it wouldn't lock anymore. Now if I could only find a way to not use the key on the Festiva fuel door, then I would be happy.

[RichardJensen]

I should have added that the "sticking up" condition I described was occurring only in the corners of the window where the vertical and upper horizontal planes meet. In each corner the gasket went from being flush along where the glass and frame met, to protruding out (and somewhat over) by 2 or 3 16ths of an inch. The protrusion (IMHO) is most definitely a *slight* case of sloppy design/fit, since the same areas (with a similar design) on my KIA are perfectly flat and fitted.

 

Again, I only use this comparison as an example litmus test of "state-of-the-art" Ford against the supposed "bottom-feeder" KIA.

 

-Ovaltine

And your Spectra has been on the market how long? If you're looking at fit and finish on a brand new car coming down a brand new line... Seems a little premature. Fit and finish on my '00 Sable in such areas is flawless. It was on '96 Sables.

 

...

[foxrun]

I should have added that the "sticking up" condition I described was occurring only in the corners of the window where the vertical and upper horizontal planes meet. In each corner the gasket went from being flush along where the glass and frame met, to protruding out (and somewhat over) by 2 or 3 16ths of an inch. The protrusion (IMHO) is most definitely a *slight* case of sloppy design/fit, since the same areas (with a similar design) on my KIA are perfectly flat and fitted.

 

Again, I only use this comparison as an example litmus test of "state-of-the-art" Ford against the supposed "bottom-feeder" KIA.

 

-Ovaltine

 

 

You know it is proven in psycology that people see what they want. Do you know what is proven of people that see what is not there?

[Ovaltine]

And your Spectra has been on the market how long? If you're looking at fit and finish on a brand new car coming down a brand new line... Seems a little premature. Fit and finish on my '00 Sable in such areas is flawless. It was on '96 Sables.

 

...

 

 

My Spectra is actually a 2004.5 model (I like to round it up to 2005) that was built in March of 2004, or only a few months after the redesign had gone into production.

 

You make a valid point however. I'll check a few more Fusions to see if I see the rubber molding issue as a pattern or an anomaly.

 

I'll report back to this thread an update. The good thing from a Ford perspective is that it shouldn't take too long to do that! I see more and more Fusions on the road here in Michigan every day!

 

 

-Ovaltine

 

P.S. For the record, I grew up "bleeding blue" in a Blue Oval household. My first car was a 429 '72 T-Bird, and I've got an '88 Mustang LX 5.0 in my garage. I may just have to consider putting that up for sale and applying the proceeds towards an '07/'08 Mach I if that model indeed comes to fruition!

 

My hope for Ford is that it eventually gets its vehicles up to the same level of long-term reliability as the examples of other makes I've sampled over the most recent decade or so. I've owned so many Fords over my lifetime that had unexpected and ridiculous items breaking past the 70k mile mark, that when my Chevy's and a Plymouth didn't do the same I was surprised.... and appreciative!

 

So far my KIA's got 17k+ miles and 1.5 years of completely trouble free driving on Michigan's bomb-cratered roads on it. The primary item of note about that statement is that I've NEVER had a domestic new car be as problem free as this one during my lifetime. That's not to say that a new domestic-built auto couldn't be as problem free. I just haven't ever found one of those yet.

[Ovaltine]

You know it is proven in psycology that people see what they want. Do you know what is proven of people that see what is not there?

 

 

 

What do you see here, FR? <_<

 

-Ovaltine

Edited January 5, 2006 by Ovaltine

[foxrun]

 

What do see here, FR? <_<

 

-Ovaltine

A kia on the side of the road with its hood up.

[Ovaltine]

A kia on the side of the road with its hood up.

[gt5001]

Not to belitte gas doors & window rubber, my question is why does the cloth interior look so bad & more importantly, why no manual transmission or autostick auto on the V6?

Apparently, the Fusion does handle better than previous Ford sedans, but most people talk about the chrome grill. Toyota, Caddy and Infiniti G35 had those long before the Fusion hit the highway.

[630land]

Those Kias have 'great' resale value don't they? I'll get a Chevy Cavalier before any Kia.

[Ovaltine]

Those Kias have 'great' resale value don't they? I'll get a Chevy Cavalier before any Kia.

You are correct about the issue of resale values of KIAs being currently among the lowest.

 

However.... nothing improves a vehicle's resale value around faster than quality. I've already read articles saying that KIA's resale values are improving (OR are bound to improve) due to the quantifiable quality improvement numbers on the new redesigns from outfits like J.D. Powers, etc.

 

Incidentally, my Spectra beat out the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla in the 2005 J.D. Powers IQS study. See: Kia Spectra Ranks Second among Compact Cars—Spectra among Top 10 Most-Improved Models http://tinyurl.com/92lsn .

 

If Hyundai/KIA keeps improving their quality at the current pace, the resale value of their vehicles can ONLY go up... esp. if you're already starting at the bottom.

 

As for myself, I drove my last car (a Plymouth) for almost 12 years and 120k+ miles. I was still able to get $2,000 for it because it was in perfect working order and looked nearly new.

 

Obviously then, resale value ISN'T *my* first concern. Esp. when my fully loaded Spectra went out the door for only $14k.

 

Btw, drive a new Spectra and then a used Cavalier (since they're not manufactured any longer). If you still make the claim above then I'll simply write you off as someone who has an aversion to driving/owning a foreign car, OR that you're a moron. To be fair (and nice), I'll assume the former.

 

To be even more fair minded, I'll also add that I don't think I would be willing to invest more than $20k or so in a KIA (for now), due to the off chance of picking up a troubled unit that I might NOT want to drive for an extended period. Until those resale values *officially* perk up, the amount of risk for $$$ loss does increase dramatically as you go up the price schedule. Fortunately, most of the truly good (aka: recent design) KIAs can be gotten for $20k or less, true market valued (to quote an Edmunds.com term).

 

 

-Ovaltine

Edited January 9, 2006 by Ovaltine

[Tico]

I really don't think "non car people" look at the seal around the window or for a locking gas cap. My brother in law drives Toyota because he thinks they are reliable. He knows nothing about cars but how to pump gas and turn the key. Image, quality and Marketing sell cars to these 2,000,000+ Toyota and Honda buyers every year, not the window seals. Next time grab some guy in a Camary and ask him to look at the Fusion. I bet he won't comment on Window seals. Just looks and the fact that he does not trust the domestics quality or relibility.

 

You are correct about the issue of resale values of KIAs being currently among the lowest.

 

However.... nothing improves a vehicle's resale value around faster than quality. I've already read articles saying that KIA's resale values are improving (OR are bound to improve) due to the quantifiable quality improvement numbers on the new redesigns from outfits like J.D. Powers, etc.

 

Incidentally, my Spectra beat out the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla in the 2005 J.D. Powers IQS study. See: Kia Spectra Ranks Second among Compact Cars—Spectra among Top 10 Most-Improved Models http://tinyurl.com/92lsn .

 

If Hyundai/KIA keeps improving their quality at the current pace, the resale value of their vehicles can ONLY go up... esp. if you're already starting at the bottom.

 

As for myself, I drove my last car (a Plymouth) for almost 12 years and 120k+ miles. I was still able to get $2,000 for it because it was in perfect working order and looked nearly new.

 

Obviously then, resale value ISN'T *my* first concern. Esp. when my fully loaded Spectra went out the door for only $14k.

 

Btw, drive a new Spectra and then a used Cavalier (since they're not manufactured any longer). If you still make the claim above then I'll simply write you off as someone who has an aversion to driving/owning a foreign car, OR that you're a moron. To be fair (and nice), I'll assume the former.

 

To be even more fair minded, I'll also add that I don't think I would be willing to invest more than $20k or so in a KIA (for now), due to the off chance of picking up a troubled unit that I might NOT want to drive for an extended period. Until those resale values *officially* perk up, the amount of risk for $$$ loss does increase dramatically as you go up the price schedule. Fortunately, most of the truly good (aka: recent design) KIAs can be gotten for $20k or less, true market valued (to quote an Edmunds.com term).

-Ovaltine

 

If you drove Plymouths and now KIAs why are you on this forum? Why call your self "ovaltine". You own a ford? Bye the way what kinda plymouth. I had a '92 Sundance Duster that went 130K before I sold it.

Edited January 9, 2006 by Tico

[ToBeHuman]

OP I've noticed the protruding gaskets problems too. The same place you've described.

[Ovaltine]

OP I've noticed the protruding gaskets problems too. The same place you've described.

 

Thank you *cough* *cough* TBH, for also noticing this and posting it here.

 

At least there's another soul (or two) who cares about the minutiae of fit and finish.

 

:P

 

-Ovaltine

 

 

 

I really don't think "non car people" look at the seal around the window or for a locking gas cap. My brother in law drives Toyota because he thinks they are reliable. He knows nothing about cars but how to pump gas and turn the key. Image, quality and Marketing sell cars to these 2,000,000+ Toyota and Honda buyers every year, not the window seals. Next time grab some guy in a Camary and ask him to look at the Fusion. I bet he won't comment on Window seals. Just looks and the fact that he does not trust the domestics quality or relibility.

 

If you drove Plymouths and now KIAs why are you on this forum? Why call your self "ovaltine". You own a ford? Bye the way what kinda plymouth. I had a '92 Sundance Duster that went 130K before I sold it.

 

I suppose you're right about "non-car" people's power of observation and perception. However.... if things like protruding seals can be equated to other more tangible faux paus that ARE perceivable within the interior OR reliability, then I do think even average people start to notice.

 

As far as my linkage to FoMoCo goes.....

 

- I grew up in a Blue Oval family

- My first 3 cars were Fords

- I worked there as a contractor for 8+ years

- I've *still* got a Mustang '88 5.0 LX in my garage.... in mint condition!

 

The Plymouth I owned was a '93 Acclaim with the Mitsu V6. Good motor! The rest of the car held up great too!

 

-Ovaltine

[ebritt]

 

What do you see here, FR? <_<

 

-Ovaltine

Clinton and lewinsky

[2005Explorer]

Here is what I suggest. Before you go bashing that new Fusion SEL, maybe you should take it for a drive, a hard drive, see how it runs, drives, brakes, handles, and then compare it to your Kia. I have an idea which car would win that comparison without braking a sweat and I am sorry to say I don't think it would be the Kia.

[Ovaltine]

Here is what I suggest. Before you go bashing that new Fusion SEL, maybe you should take it for a drive, a hard drive, see how it runs, drives, brakes, handles, and then compare it to your Kia. I have an idea which car would win that comparison without braking a sweat and I am sorry to say I don't think it would be the Kia.

Gee 2005Explorer.... you think so???? :rolleyes:

 

Then right affter that test, let's go line up a Ford Focus against the new Hyundai Sonata (or upcoming Sonata-based redesigned KIA Optima) and replay the same test criteria. Who do you think will win that one? Hmmmm?

 

Better yet.... why not run the Sonata up against the Fusion and see what happens performance wise. Oh... Car and Driver already did, and here's what they said about the Hyundai (KIA's parent corp):

 

"This new four-door has frisky moves. In acceleration it leaves the Toyota and Ford far behind, tying the fleet Honda at 6.6 seconds from 0 to 60, then dropping back to finish the quarter-mile at 15.3 seconds at 93 mph."

 

also noted was:

 

In braking, the Sonata outstopped all the others at 181 feet from 70 mph. In cornering grip it tied the Honda at 0.79 g.

Source: http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?se...5&page_number=3

 

While the Fusion did beat the Sonata out by the slimmest of margins (less than 6 points out of 250) in C&D's review, the more vehicle class-appropriate Sonata appears to beat the Ford in every performance criteria you mention above.

 

And as I've been pointing out (AHEM!), C&D had this to say about the Fusion's fit and finish (note that they also take exception to some molding lines on the Hyundai):

Ford obviously tried to design the front sheetmetal so it could be assembled with loose tolerances and, therefore, low manufacturing cost. Very sensible, we think, but it should be done in a way that escapes the customer's notice. From certain angles, our test car's hood gap was so wide it looked to be unlatched. All around the car, the Fusion's panel gaps are wider than those of the comparison cars. And like the Hyundai, it's not good at smoothing the parting lines on molded parts. "Fit and finish" is the Fusion's weakest rating category.

 

The bottom line here gets back to what my post was ORIGINALLY about. Fit and finish. My Focus-class Spectra has it in spades over the couple of early production Fusions I've observed. I *wasn't* making a case about the performance of the two cars. However, since you try to zing my posting using that angle, the C&D article quoted above should soundly squelch your bit of "red herring" analysis. Keep the "apples" with the "apples" when the urge to compare *downwards* to prove superiority strikes.

 

As an epilogue to this, I found another VERY sloppy application on a nearby Fusion yesterday. I wasn't going to post it here unless I had to pop back on this topic. Check out the visibility of the edge of the inner rear plastic fender walls where the rear quarter and bumper fascia meet. Yikes! I checked both sides of the car to make sure that it wasn't just a bad fit on one side, and it wasn't! The edge of the plastic fender wall was sticking past the fender/bumper into the open fender area both above and below the line where the fender/fascia meet. It's hard to describe, but instead of the fender wall edge being tucked back and behind the opening lip, it stuck/drooped down into the opening so it was *very* visible. I again used my Spectra as a benchmark and saw nothing similar to that, although the inner wall design is similar. I also examined a nearby Accord and other late model midsize cars and couldn't see a similar condition.

 

Hopefully this can be (again) chalked up to early fit and finish problems, BUT after reading C&D's article I'm beginning to wonder.

 

Time will tell.

 

-Ovaltine

 

Clinton and lewinsky

 

Good one!!!! :lol: :lol:

 

I like your sense of humor.

 

-Ovaltine

Edited January 12, 2006 by Ovaltine