Lincoln Sheetmetal Should Be Unique

[ANTAUS]

LINK-Autoweek.com

[Edstock]

"Finances dictate some level of commonality on Lincoln programs. "If you just use the (same) windows, you save a fortune," Horbury said."

 

This is where the bean-counters can poison the final product. Fortunately, while everybody looks, few people see, so a lot of cheap clunkiness gets 'hidden' by painting the B-pillar black.

[DCK]

Articles like these are just downright sickning at the very best.

 

Here we go again with Horbury stating the obvious like he has been doing for years and nothing changes.

 

THey really neeed to announce sheet metal should be different? I mean honestly? They should shot for stupidity. NO DUH A LUXURY BRAND VEHICLE SHOULDN'T LOOK AND SHARE ALMOST ALL SHEETMETAL WITH THE BASIC BRAND. DOES IT NEED TO BE ANNOUNCED? They are the only company still doing it, and they do it for all of lincoln pretty much, the Mark LT, MKX, MKZ, Navigator. I don't have any hope in Horbury and J Mays at all. They both need to pack their bags and leave and let new blood in. I understand that they are limited to the bean counters but even still they have stated the same thing for years and nothing has ever been done differently then same old ford. The MKZ and MKX are disgraces, if Ford won't invest in totally unique sheetmetal for Mercury and Lincon (YES THAT MEANS WINDOWS) then they should just kill them off now instead of absolutely destroying any bit of credibility those two damaged brands still contain.

Edited November 14, 2006 by DCK

[akirby]

Articles like these are just downright sickning at the very best.

 

Here we go again with Horbury stating the obvious like he has been doing for years and nothing changes.

 

THey really neeed to announce sheet metal should be different? I mean honestly? They should shot for stupidity. NO DUH A LUXURY BRAND VEHICLE SHOULDN'T LOOK AND SHARE ALMOST ALL SHEETMETAL WITH THE BASIC BRAND. DOES IT NEED TO BE ANNOUNCED? They are the only company still doing it, and they do it for all of lincoln pretty much, the Mark LT, MKX, MKZ, Navigator. I don't have any hope in Horbury and J Mays at all. They both need to pack their bags and leave and let new blood in. I understand that they are limited to the bean counters but even still they have stated the same thing for years and nothing has ever been done differently then same old ford. The MKZ and MKX are disgraces, if Ford won't invest in totally unique sheetmetal for Mercury and Lincon (YES THAT MEANS WINDOWS) then they should just kill them off now instead of absolutely destroying any bit of credibility those two damaged brands still contain.

 

Windows are sheetmetal?

 

They're saying that the old days of sharing sheetmetal between Ford and Lincoln are over and the the new Lincolns like the MKS will have 100% unique sheetmetal. They've already announced unique engines (3.7L e.g.). Lincolns already have unique interiors although they share too many mechanical components (manual tilt/telescoping steering wheel and seat backs e.g.).

 

What he's saying is that the bean counters who forced too much sharing are NOT in charge anymore.

 

There's no pleasing some people.

[NLPRacing]

Articles like these are just downright sickening at the very best.

 

Here we go again with Horbury stating the obvious like he has been doing for years and nothing changes.

 

They really need to announce sheet metal should be different? I mean honestly? They should shot for stupidity. NO DUH A LUXURY BRAND VEHICLE SHOULDN'T LOOK AND SHARE ALMOST ALL SHEETMETAL WITH THE BASIC BRAND. DOES IT NEED TO BE ANNOUNCED? They are the only company still doing it, and they do it for all of Lincoln pretty much, the Mark LT, MKX, MKZ, Navigator. I don't have any hope in Horbury and J Mays at all. They both need to pack their bags and leave and let new blood in. I understand that they are limited to the bean counters but even still they have stated the same thing for years and nothing has ever been done differently then same old ford. The MKZ and MKX are disgraces, if Ford won't invest in totally unique sheetmetal for Mercury and Lincoln (YES THAT MEANS WINDOWS) then they should just kill them off now instead of absolutely destroying any bit of credibility those two damaged brands still contain.

 

What I took from the article is that the MKS is going to be the start of Lincoln not sharing most if any exterior sheet metal with their Ford counterpart. To me, that means that all Lincolns designed after the MKS will look unique to Lincoln.

[kyle]

I got the same impression. And if you think lincoln's got unique interior's then you must be one of the bean counters because they share way way to much stuff.

 

and the 3.7 will not be here for two more years...so until then we can bitch all we want! because that is what we do BEST!!

[Edstock]

"Windows are sheetmetal?"

 

Yes indeed. They are contained in doors, which are complex assemblies of metal. Depending on budget, many different approaches are possible.

[akirby]

"Windows are sheetmetal?"

 

Yes indeed. They are contained in doors, which are complex assemblies of metal. Depending on budget, many different approaches are possible.

 

I was being a little facetious, but if the door and everything else is different NOBODY is going to notice that the windows are the same.

 

The MKZ interior is visually and tactically totally different from the Fusion and Milan. Some of the functionality is the same (steering wheel adjustments, seatback adjustment, etc.) but it's not just an upgraded Fusion. Same is true of the Navigator and MKX and was true for the Aviator. Can't be said for the Mark LT though - it's still F150.

[waymondospiff]

and the 3.7 will not be here for two more years...so until then we can bitch all we want! because that is what we do BEST!!

Here here!

 

And I don't plan to quit just because the 3.7L is launched. I reserve the right to bitch, well into 2009.

 

Scott

[OrlandoGuy80]

And I don't plan to quit just because the 3.7L is launched. I reserve the right to bitch, well into 2009.

 

Scott

Shoot ... you're going to have to reapply for a bitching permit after '09. Make sure you send in your application early. Those bitches can take forever to make it possible for you to bitch.

 

Mine's good through '11.

 

Bitchin!

[BEPSF]

"Finances dictate some level of commonality on Lincoln programs. "If you just use the (same) windows, you save a fortune," Horbury said."

 

This is where the bean-counters can poison the final product. Fortunately, while everybody looks, few people see, so a lot of cheap clunkiness gets 'hidden' by painting the B-pillar black.

 

That explains the awful upswept windows on the 1983-1988 Cougars...

[robertlane]

I have to take side with those who are complaining about statements by Lincoln as, well, DUH. :blah: I have been hearing about Lincoln doing this and that to keep them apart from Fords for YEARS. The only result after all of those years was the Lincoln LS. Is this more lip service? :pig:

 

Will Lincoln finally break free with the MKS and 3.7L? The proof will be in the pudding come 2009.

[pcsario]

I was being a little facetious, but if the door and everything else is different NOBODY is going to notice that the windows are the same.

 

The article tells me vehicles like the MKS will be the exception rather than the norm, which is a shame.

 

You just need the windows to be the same, to have pretty much the same roofline as the car it's "based on".

 

That in turn helps you have more Fusions=MKZzzzs, than TL's=Accords.

 

The MKS would have simply not been possible with the same windows as the 500... food for thought.

 

People DO notice, that's why Ford is the only brand left doing it this much.

Edited November 14, 2006 by pcsario

[akirby]

The article tells me vehicles like the MKS will be the exception rather than the norm, which is a shame.

 

You just need the windows to be the same, to have pretty much the same roofline as the car it's "based on".

 

That in turn helps you have more Fusions=MKZzzzs, than TL's=Accords.

 

The MKS would have simply not been possible with the same windows as the 500... food for thought.

 

People DO notice, that's why Ford is the only brand left doing it this much.

 

Only a handfull of enthusiasts would notice and most people wouldn't care anyway. The average buyer doesn't even know what size engine they have.

 

If 100% of the sheet metal is different, then what else could you want? 110%?

[RichardJensen]

that's why Ford is the only brand left doing it this much.

Toyota shares the lower door stampings and all the glass in front of the 'B' pillars on the ES and Camry. The side sheetmetal is different, but you're not far from the MKZ with the ES. The only panels the MKZ shares with the Fusion that the ES does not share with the Camry is the roof and the doors.

 

Granted the differentiation in the quarters is not quite as good as it should be. It remains for Ford to purchase tooling for stamping the vehicle sides that can form different contours.

 

Still the MKZ represents at least as solid a first step as the original ES back in '91.

[NickF1011]

Still the MKZ represents at least as solid a first step as the original ES back in '91.

 

Woohoo! So by 2021 the MKZ will look as different from the Fusion as the 2007 ES looks from the Camry? I CAN'T WAIT!!!!

[RichardJensen]

Woohoo! So by 2021 the MKZ will look as different from the Fusion as the 2007 ES looks from the Camry? I CAN'T WAIT!!!!

Well, subtract about 10 years off that and you're about right.

 

Technology means Ford can move faster than Toyota did a decade or more ago.

 

Whether they will is largely a question of the will of an airplane engineer named Mulally.

 

(actually that last line was pretty lame, but I couldn't resist.)

[BORG]

It's not just about sharing sheetmetal, it's also the parts sharing. From the door hardware to the windshields misters, what works on a 18K car does not work on a 38K car. This is what really hinders customer satisfaction when they are paying this much for a car. I think that is why I'm so dissatisfied with the 'value' of the MKZ. I'm use to Lincolns being completely superior from stem to stern from any Ford, but the MKZ and MKX are far from the quality I've expected from Lincoln over the years. They are way over-reaching and expecting people to excuse a little too much. Lincoln needs to be more focused on the details because their customers are very detail oriented. That's the nature of a luxury car shopper, they are sold by the quality. I mean, what are they thinking when they put LED tail-lights on the car but lift a break lamp from a 1986 Taurus? Why are there so many compromises? Why cant' they get this right? There are so many annoying little things about what Ford has been doing!

[akirby]

It's not just about sharing sheetmetal, it's also the parts sharing. From the door hardware to the windshields misters, what works on a 18K car does not work on a 38K car. This is what really hinders customer satisfaction when they are paying this much for a car. I think that is why I'm so dissatisfied with the 'value' of the MKZ. I'm use to Lincolns being completely superior from stem to stern from any Ford, but the MKZ and MKX are far from the quality I've expected from Lincoln over the years. They are way over-reaching and expecting people to excuse a little too much. Lincoln needs to be more focused on the details because their customers are very detail oriented. That's the nature of a luxury car shopper, they are sold by the quality. I mean, what are they thinking when they put LED tail-lights on the car but lift a break lamp from a 1986 Taurus? Why are there so many compromises? Why cant' they get this right? There are so many annoying little things about what Ford has been doing!

 

I agree. I was annoyed when our 2003 Aviator came with a manual steering tilt and seatback adjustment. I guess we got lucky with the LS because it didn't have a Ford version at first.

 

I think Ford/Lincoln gets that now and the beancounters won't force those decisions anymore. We'll see.

[RichardJensen]

The LS was not a sustainable product and it had no sustainable business model behind it.

 

Therefore pining away for its delicacies is time wasted.

 

Better by far would be building Lincoln from the ground up, instead of trying to 'save' it with one-off products that have no future.

[BORG]

The MKS should be more along the lines of the Lincoln LS in terms of a fully realized product designed entirely for Lincoln. I don't think we'll see this happen too often however. We'll know when the Lincoln version of the D426 comes out, but I doubt we'll see a totally unique design.

 

Having faith in Ford's long-term strategy is very difficult. It's impossible to compare Lincoln to Lexus of the 90s when Ford has never had such a long-term strategy that was successfully sustained. Toyota never had to deal with constant restructuring and budget crunching which virtually destroys long-term product plans at Ford.

[ANTAUS]

Supposedly the LS was sustainable at some point if Ford decided to go ahead and build the product. But in true Ford tradition, the sustainability lost itself along the way when they didn't improve much on the product, or give it much of a future.

 

Supposedly other vehicles were to be built, such as Navi-cross using the same underpinning, as well as a possible Continental, and let's not forget the Mark9 concept as well.

 

Back to basics again...if you design other vehicles from a specific platform, it allows for sustainaibility if done correctly. But again, "launch and abandon" killed that plan.

 

Supposedly in 1999-2000 was Lincoln's brightest moment when promises of taking Lincoln to a higher sophisticated level was somewhat realized with the introduction of the LS, and concept cars showed a rejuvinated promise to again capture an audience into realizing that Lincoln was BACK on the map.

 

If we research back, past car reviews of the time, many auto journalists shared a renewed welcoming in seeing Ford taking Lincoln into an aggresively positive move, one which Cadillac later copied (in typical GM fasion). The LS hardly failed in any one specific area, other than the typical Ford fate of abandoning a vehicle.

 

The LS captured a large take-rate of owners that would have otherwise gone to foreign makes. Also posted 35K+ sales in the first few years (before being drowned in the fleet world towards the end)..although some people describe the "LS" as a failure while praising the Zephyr as having great sales it's first year out at just around 20K...Or their beloved Lexus, Acuras who post almost similar number of sales in it's respective segment.

 

Obviously monetary resources are low to again take Lincoln into a more positive trail...and if Ford did, won't people believe them again this time around ?

[BORG]

Another problem with the Lincoln LS is that it was built with Jaguar at a time when Ford was investing heavily in that partnership. Since then, Ford of NA and Europe have completely divorced (PAG belonging to EU) and there was no way to sustain the LS affordably. Ford of NA simply doesn't have the engineering infrastructure to work with high-tech platforms like the LS affordably. It requires enormous initial investment to pull that off. However, they can produce luxury cars with very inexpensive and low-tech modifications and sell them at significant premiums to far more customers at enormous profits. And thus you have the MKZ and MKX which are/or will be very successful products for Lincoln and will help to keep it going for the immediate future while it prepares for a more sustainable future with better products. Lincoln is trying to live another day to fight again...or at least that's what we keep telling ourselves.

[RichardJensen]

Ford of NA simply doesn't have the engineering infrastructure to work with high-tech platforms like the LS affordably.

Oh horse trumpets. Ford spends $7B annually on product development. There is more than enough resources in the Dearborn complex to work on the LS.

 

The willpower is absent, and the opportunity to get on the treadmill and chase BMW is long since past. The best Lincoln could ever hope for would be ongoing positive comparisons to BMW, had the LS course been followed.

 

Ford could spend a fortune on Lincoln and never bring it out of BMW's shadow.

 

AT LEAST with Jaguar, the rag writers always go on about how it's British, and it has the British charm and character and all that. It's Jag's heritage.

 

Let Lincoln grasp its own heritage, instead of trying to steal BMW's.

[BORG]

Oh horse trumpets. Ford spends $7B annually on product development. There is more than enough resources in the Dearborn complex to work on the LS.

 

The willpower is absent, and the opportunity to get on the treadmill and chase BMW is long since past. The best Lincoln could ever hope for would be ongoing positive comparisons to BMW, had the LS course been followed.

 

Ford could spend a fortune on Lincoln and never bring it out of BMW's shadow.

 

AT LEAST with Jaguar, the rag writers always go on about how it's British, and it has the British charm and character and all that. It's Jag's heritage.

 

Let Lincoln grasp its own heritage, instead of trying to steal BMW's.

 

They would need a big chunk of that cash to start from scratch on an LS successor. That is not a lot of money for a company the size of Ford.

 

And this is not about the LS specifically, this is about Lincoln's overall product approach. Admittedly, Lincoln has VERY cleverly spent its money and targeted its customer. Ford is getting a lot of bang for the buck out of Lincoln. Other luxury marques are spending billions chasing each other, while Lincoln is ignoring them altogether and spending less to bring in more. It's not the concept of badge engineering that causes the problem, it's the way it's been abused in the past. Lincoln knew how it needed to differentiate their cars in the right areas to really make a difference. Most will not notice the unimportant similarities between the Ford greenhouse and doors as long as the content design meet customer expectations.

Edited November 15, 2006 by BORG