Holden's cat out of bag - SS off to America

[Cashman]

 

 

AUSTRALIA'S biggest-selling car, the Holden Commodore, will be exported to the US, it has been unofficially confirmed at the Detroit motor show.

 

The announcement was not due to be made until the Chicago motor show next month, but the worldwide head of product development at General Motors, Bob Lutz, gave away more than he was supposed to during a news conference.

 

Just minutes after Holden officials refused to answer questions about the Commodore's export program, Mr Lutz revealed details about the deal.

 

The Commodore SS, a V8- powered sports sedan, will be sold as a Pontiac from late this year or early next year.

 

Holden expects to export 30,000 Commodores annually, about half what it sells locally.

 

"We are seriously planning to import a lot of Commodore SS sedans as Pontiac G8s," Mr Lutz said, adding that Holden could export up to 50,000 Commodores a year if the model was priced correctly.

 

Mr Lutz said the export of the Holden Monaro as a Pontiac GTO from 2003 to last year (during which 40,000 of the V8 coupes were sold) brought Holden's expertise to the attention of its parent company, General Motors in North America.

 

"We are yet to officially announce it," Mr Lutz said of the Commodore export deal, once he realised that he had made a faux pas.

 

He eventually admitted that selling the V8 version of the Commodore in the US was such a logical thing to do as it filled a void in Pontiac's line-up.

 

"While [the Monaro's] export program may not have fulfilled all of our hopes and dreams in terms of profitability and volume, it did break the ice on global programs."

 

 

http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/holden...8104921065.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cliffs: SHIP OVER SOME OF THE FPV LINEUP FORD

[Roadrunner]

I'm guessing this will be a Pontiac?

[Cashman]

I'm guessing this will be a Pontiac?

 

correct

[Cashman]

[jpd80]

Expected price of US$25,000.

 

Gee, I wonder if Ford NA could import some 2008 GT Falcons, the SS-V Commodore's Aussie Rival for the same price? Now that would be interesting....

[Michael Reynolds]

Expected price of US$25,000.

 

Gee, I wonder if Ford NA could import some 2008 GT Falcons, the SS-V Commodore's Aussie Rival for the same price? Now that would be interesting....

 

Well the new Falcon is due to be LH Drive capable. We will see.......

 

That car looks sweet in black. :happy feet:

[Blueblood]

Damn, if Ford doesn't reverse course and back out of rectum fast, that might be my next car. Can you remove the Pontiac emblem and order a Holden one to cover up the hole?

[Linc]

The new Pontiac Grand Am?.....Nice

[LincolnFan]

I can't wait to see how that Piece of Shit score on JD powers and others.

 

Holdens are such pieces of shit I'd never buy another again in my life.

Edited January 9, 2007 by LincolnFan

[silvrsvt]

Damn, if Ford doesn't reverse course and back out of rectum fast, that might be my next car. Can you remove the Pontiac emblem and order a Holden one to cover up the hole?

 

 

I'm sure it will have a twin kidney grill like other Pontiac products. I just wonder if this will be a flop like the GTO

 

I do like the Dash treatment though.and overall its not a bad looking car, just a bit blah

[NickF1011]

This has long been speculated to be the new Pontiac G8, the replacement for the Grand Prix. Looks good to me. I believe I heard it is due for a Chicago Auto Show unveiling.

Edited January 9, 2007 by NickF1011

[jpd80]

I'm sure it will have a twin kidney grill like other Pontiac products. I just wonder if this will be a flop like the GTO

 

I do like the Dash treatment though.and overall its not a bad looking car, just a bit blah

 

Funny thing is the GM boards are all over it and the people passing judgement on it haven't driven it or seen it in the flesh.

I have and Ford NA will disregard this car like they did with the GTO (Monaro). That car stirred up a hornet's nest of emotions over at GM

Everyone had strong opinions fore and against. It was only the price that really held it back but, if the G8 goes on sale at the expected US$25,000

then I think they'll do ok. Do any americans drive stick anymore? If so this is a car for you, a real driver's car with a good IRS that excells on the twisty bits.

 

Here's one we prepared earlier:

 

Ve Commodore Drifting

[PolarBear]

[Sizzler]

Funny thing is the GM boards are all over it and the people passing judgement on it haven't driven it or seen it in the flesh.

 

I have and Ford NA will disregard this car like they did with the GTO (Monaro). That car stirred up a hornet's nest of emotions over at GM

 

Everyone had strong opinions fore and against. It was only the price that really held it back but, if the G8 goes on sale at the expected US$25,000

...

 

How does this Holden's dimensions measure up against the Interceptor's? Length, width, wheelbase?

 

Why can GM bring in a V8 Holden for $25,000 NOW but the GTO had to cost $35,000+++++???? They look pretty similar cars, what made the GTO cost $10K more, 40% more, with two fewer doors?

[BlackHorse]

As I recall, the GTO failed for two reasons.

 

1. I didn't look like a GTO at all but rather more like a slightly larger Grand Prix. GM probably should have invested some money into making the sheet metal look more like a GTO or at least less like a Grand Prix. That aspect of the car turned off a lot of potential buyers and when coupled with problem # 2 only insured the GTO's failure.

 

2. Buyers in todays market are hesitant to spend well over 30 grand for a domestic sedan, be it GM or Ford. Sure it had a V8 and it was fast and fun to drive and all of that, but the market for people who want to spend over 30 thousand for a Pontiac sedan is small to say the least. How often do you see a Bonneville SSei on the streets? My point exactly. I'm not sure who GM hired to look into the demographics about the GTO but they didn't do a very good job. Put yourselves in the shoes of someone who might consider a V8 powered Pontiac performance sedan. You arrive at the lot to find that it is essentially a 2 door slightly larger version of the Grand Prix with a hefty price tag. I think those combination of factors is what killed the GTO.

 

This Holden is a nice looking car but like the Mustang and the Accord in order to justify keeping it GM needs to sell a base model version. They should offer the V6 version or possilby even the inline 6 version. If they only offer it as a V8 powered sedan and the price tags are well north of the 30 thousand mark, it will suffer the same fate as the GTO. We all know that eighty something precent of Camry and Accord sales are the 4 cylinder model, not the V6 models which seem to garner all the press attention. Similarly, the majority of Mustang sales are the V6, not the GT. Without these sales the two companies respectively couldn't afford to keep around their more pricey versions. GM should take that into account and offer an entry level version of the Commodore in order to sell enough of them to make the model line viable here in the US. My two cents.

[kalu]

I'm sure it will have a twin kidney grill like other Pontiac products. I just wonder if this will be a flop like the GTO

 

I do like the Dash treatment though.and overall its not a bad looking car, just a bit blah

 

 

Id bet my dollar it will do exactly what the GTO did, Nothing.....No quality

[jpd80]

Id bet my dollar it will do exactly what the GTO did, Nothing.....No quality

Mate you're full of it.

You're trying to comment on cars you've never seen but I see every day. I've seen your NA cars quality in the flesh as well so don't go there my friend.

This is a well built car with quality up the kazoo. Even panel gaps set at 3mm (1/8") big cabin with heaps of room, more than your Crown Victoria

They do 1/4 mile in 13.5 , verysimilar overall dimensions similar to CTS-V. The LWB Caprice does 13.9 with 6-speed auto (about Town car size inside)

With the name, I would have preferred they called it what it is, a Pontiac Commodore SS.

Lutz has already stated the price will be around US$25,000. If they imported the 6 cylinder it would sell just under US$20,000.

 

Also, The GTO didnt fail, they ended up selling over 40,000 restricted inporting imposed by UAW. NA sales helped subsidise the comparatbly low production run of local Monaros in AUS.

Once again, I seriously doubt that the detractors of this car ever bothered test driving it. remember, it also paved the way for the new Camaro and a Future GTO.

Edited January 10, 2007 by jpd80

[PolarBear]

Mate you're full of it.

You're trying to comment on cars you've never seen but I see every day. I've seen your NA cars quality in the flesh as well so don't go there my friend.

This is a well built car with quality up the kazoo. Even panel gaps set at 3mm (1/8") big cabin with heaps of room, more than your Crown Victoria

They do 1/4 mile in 13.5 , verysimilar overall dimensions similar to CTS-V. The LWB Caprice does 13.9 with 6-speed auto (about Town car size inside)

With the name, I would have preferred they called it what it is, a Pontiac Commodore SS.

Lutz has already stated the price will be around US$25,000. If they imported the 6 cylinder it would sell just under US$20,000.

 

Also, The GTO didnt fail, they ended up selling over 40,000 restricted inporting imposed by UAW. NA sales helped subsidise the comparatbly low production run of local Monaros in AUS.

Once again, I seriously doubt that the detractors of this car ever bothered test driving it. remember, it also paved the way for the new Camaro and a Future GTO.

 

The issue with the GTO related to the styling and the pricing. The round, generic quasi-Asian bodystyle just didn't appeal to US buyers. On the other hand, the car was a rocketship- and a well-made one at that.

Edited January 10, 2007 by PolarBear

[BlackHorse]

jpd80, I fully appreciate your apprasial of the Holden cars. I have no doubt they are reliable and good cars. I never doubted the GTO was a fast and fun car. But honesty sir, if it was a success they would still be selling it here. Never believe a car company when they say "Well, we intended for it to be a limited release all along." The nature of business contradicts that entirely. If something is selling well, particularly if you are GM and you need those sales, you don't just decide to discontinue it. 40,000 units in 3 years is by no means an astounding success. I won't argue the semantics with you. The bottom line is, cars that sell well do not get dropped, that's just the nature of business.

 

It would be nice to see a Holden SS with a $25,000 price tag. I don't think it's going to happen. Lets condsider GM's nearest comparable cars already on the NA market, the Impala SS and the Monte Carlo SS. Both of these average about 28 to 30 thousand. I sincerely doubt the Holden, which by all accounts is a better car, is going to sell for less and still be equipped with the HO V8. I still really believe that in order to make the Holden viable, they will need a 6 cylinder, entry level model to help keep the sales numbers up. If they only sell 40,000 G8's in 3 years the next thing you know Ponitac will be holding a press conference to tell everyone how it was intended to be a limited run car all along.

[jpd80]

I hear what you're saying Blackhorse. I sense that the 30,000 to 50,000 loose-lips-Lutz spoke about may only be as a stop gap measure until NA gets up and rolling with their own Zetas. Holden have had a Mustang for over 12 months to compare their car against so you can imagine what went on there.

I just wished they would call it what it is, a Pontiac Commodore SS.

 

That Monaro (GTO) was designed by two Holden Engineers in their own time, as a case for our Aussie Monaro and was based on the 1997-2002 Commodore. GM bosses loved it so much so that the Monaro made it to production (an extremely cheap but already dated style). By the time export was approved the style of the Commodore had moved on to sharper lines and a more squared off style, pity this wasn't included in the GTO. The truth was that the GTO was a small toe in the water to see if a GTO would fly, the advanced age of the styling meant a car penned in 1999 was still selling in 2006. By this time a Zeta Commodores were in full swing with the former GTO plant in Elizabeth being changed over to produce more Holden LHD Chev Luminas and Caprices for the Middle East. Frankly there was no room to keep producing the outdated LHD GTO. That's what killed it. It was never the full broadway production others made it out to be, the UAW also made sure of that (10,000 cars/year max. from memory) but it also wet GM fans apptite for more and better. it was all over for the GTO in 2006 when production of the export LHD Zeta Commodores and Caprices commenced in August.

 

.

 

Damned frustrating when some posters bag our local cars as though the were developed some third world dump. Our Commodores and Falcons go through all the same rigours as any car developed in NA. For all intents and purposes they are as good as or better than anything out of Detroit. Both Aussie Falcons and Commodores have been fully assessed and tested in North America by their respective parents including NA crash testing and emissions (Now Euro 3 and closing in on US regs). The estimated cost of Federalising the Commodore was US$15 Million but, I Ford AUS hasn't done this with the Falcon - no business case you see and no LHD engineering in current model anyway (next model will be LHD compatible though)

Motor companies like ford and GM are sensitive to the styling needs of buyers in NA, Europe and AUS. If not we would all be driving lowest common denominator Corollas and Camrys. After all, that's what sets Ford, GM and Chrysler apart from Toyota, the chance for regional styling changes. I would expect that the Pontiac boys will make changes to the front and rear clips as needed for a "new improved all American Series II" .

 

Looking to the future, I see good things with re organisation of platforms and the retention of local engineers and stylists. I'm ever hopeful of three super platform families:

 

1. A small FWD/AWD platform for the likes of "Fiesta", "Focus" and "Mondeo" including a small SUV/MPV

2. A large FWD/AWD platform for the likes of "Fusion" and "Fivehundred" and including a medium SUV/MPV

3. A large RWD/AWD platform for the likes of "Mustang" and "Falcon" "Torino" and "Thunderbird" and including a large SUV/MPV

 

Maybe I'm wrong but if you start with good adaptable foundations, most divisions can style almost anything on it.

Edited January 10, 2007 by jpd80

[NickF1011]

How does this Holden's dimensions measure up against the Interceptor's? Length, width, wheelbase?

 

Why can GM bring in a V8 Holden for $25,000 NOW but the GTO had to cost $35,000+++++???? They look pretty similar cars, what made the GTO cost $10K more, 40% more, with two fewer doors?

 

Two reasons:

 

1. The G8 will be offered with a 6 cylinder base engine.

 

2. The G8 will be assembled in North America. Oshawa #2 with the Impala and Camaro, to be precise.

[Sizzler]

Two reasons:

 

1. The G8 will be offered with a 6 cylinder base engine.

 

2. The G8 will be assembled in North America. Oshawa #2 with the Impala and Camaro, to be precise.

 

The Commodore SS, a V8- powered sports sedan, will be sold as a Pontiac from late this year or early next year.

 

Holden expects to export 30,000 Commodores annually, about half what it sells locally.

 

"We are seriously planning to import a lot of Commodore SS sedans as Pontiac G8s," Mr Lutz said

 

I don't feel my questions have been answered yet, anyone?

 

 

 

How does this Holden's dimensions measure up against the Interceptor's? Length, width, wheelbase?

 

Why can GM bring in a V8 Holden for $25,000 NOW but the GTO had to cost $35,000+++++???? They look pretty similar cars, what made the GTO cost $10K more, 40% more, with two fewer doors?

[NickF1011]

I don't feel my questions have been answered yet, anyone?

How does this Holden's dimensions measure up against the Interceptor's? Length, width, wheelbase?

 

Why can GM bring in a V8 Holden for $25,000 NOW but the GTO had to cost $35,000+++++???? They look pretty similar cars, what made the GTO cost $10K more, 40% more, with two fewer doors?

 

I believe the quotes are just worded somewhat oddly. All indications from GM insiders is that it will be assembled in North America. The only thing likely being "imported" is the design. Indications are also that $25K will NOT be for a V8 model, despite what can be inferred from this article.

 

Can't help you on the dimensions question, though I believe they would be pretty similar to those of the Chrysler 300, if not a hair smaller.

[jpd80]

How does this Holden's dimensions measure up against the Interceptor's? Length, width, wheelbase?

 

Why can GM bring in a V8 Holden for $25,000 NOW but the GTO had to cost $35,000+++++???? They look pretty similar cars, what made the GTO cost $10K more, 40% more, with two fewer doors?

 

 

Sorry mate , missed your question.

 

Commodore is very similar to CTS_V in overall dimensions. It's about Fusion length, 114" wheelbase, and about as wide as a Fivehundred, interior is big.

For the record:

 

Length: 4894mm 192.67"

Width: 1899mm 74.76"

Height: 1476mm 58.11"

Wheelbase: 2915mm 114.76"

Track Front: 1592mm 62.67"

Track Rear: 1608mm 63.30"

Leg Room Front: 1071mm 42.16"

LegRoom Rear: 1001mm 39.41"

 

Shoulder room Front: 1501mm 59.90"

Shoulder Room Rear: 1499mm 59.01"

Head Room Front: 985mm 38.77"

Head Room Rear: 965mm 37.99"

Hip Room Front: 1439mm 56.65"

Hip Room Rear: 1472mm 57.95"

 

By comparison the current Aussie Fakcon has 111.3" wheelbase, O/A Length193" and about 1.5" narrower than Commodore.

Next Orion Falcon will have existing wheelbase shorter trunk and slightly wider body. (Between Fusion and Fivehundred)

 

Hope this helps your research http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action...ta?modelid=4000

Edited January 10, 2007 by jpd80

[jlsaylor]

I believe the quotes are just worded somewhat oddly. All indications from GM insiders is that it will be assembled in North America. The only thing likely being "imported" is the design. Indications are also that $25K will NOT be for a V8 model, despite what can be inferred from this article.

 

Can't help you on the dimensions question, though I believe they would be pretty similar to those of the Chrysler 300, if not a hair smaller.

 

I can see Sizzler's problem here since, as you indicate as well, this announcement has a lot of conflicting info in it. Assuming the car will be made here then there is no way it could be available by the end of thise year, or even the beginning of next, unless planning was already well underway which doesn't seem to be the case. Assuming the car will be imported the price seems off since 25k would be much cheaper than anything else in GM's lineup given what you get, even assuming that is for a 3.6L V-6 equipped model. When you add the cost of importation to the mix this doesn't seem plausible. I could buy the notion that GM will import the car until production is ready to rampuup here in North America, but then it would seem likely that GM would lose money at that price level until such a time, a scenario I find difficult to believe they would accept.

Edited January 10, 2007 by jlsaylor