OFFICIAL: Next Focus and Fusion on GLOBAL PLATFORMS

[pcsario]

The only flaw you could find in the Mondeo was that it looked like a Camry.

 

I mean really, that's bottom of the barrel material even from you.

 

 

Lets take care of that and put a new front end on it. Presto. Excellent global product.

 

We would be back to "But it would've european DNA in it and I can't accept that"

 

I'm not against collaboration from Ford NA, but unlike you, I do believe good design is global in nature.

Edited August 24, 2007 by pcsario

[igor]

^^But that is YOU - Ford needs another 200k buyers for the Fusion.Mondeo a year ... and that was my point.

 

Igor

[Deanh]

That wasn't an angry exclamation mark.

 

Just a reminder that Mazda's styling will almost always be 'edgier'.

 

I don't consider either the Edge or the Mustang to be particularly boundary pushing.

no anger...my angst is to whomever signs off on mainstream ho hum, ignoring the success of groundbreakers like the origional Taurus, the probe...somewhere along the line the styling guys lost origionality and their cajones....maybe they flew to FOE

[RichardJensen]

The only flaw you could find in the Mondeo was that it looked like a Camry.

No, if you'll recall it was that 'it isn't distinctive enough -- it looks like a Camry.' Key point that the design is pretty, but not distinctive.

 

Slapping a big ol chrome schnozz on the Mondeo body would result in an unsatisfactory 'Fusion' compromise all over again.

 

Fact is, it is unreasonable to 'prioritize' the interests of one market over another (as in FoE designs the Mondeo, and the U.S. hacks it up to make the Fusion). I mean, potentially Ford could sell more Fusions in the U.S. than Mondeos in Europe which furnishes opportunity for U.S. designers to demand full control over the C/D car with the EU designers having to adapt. And that is equally preposterous.

 

Having an internal competition with lots of cutthroat maneuvers to determine which team leads the design of a new product is also stupid.

 

Far better to say, "Here are the hard points. Here are the interior components we want shared. Go to work."

 

Only the system that lets U.S. designers work on U.S. product while EU handles EU product eliminates 'us vs. them' politics WITHIN the company.

 

You can quibble about NA vs. EU design, but then you don't work for Ford, and your feelings on the subject don't cause issues with workflow.

 

Let Europe have the S-Max and North America the Edge.

Edited August 24, 2007 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

I will cite an example of an instance where a very minor amount of sheetmetal change produces two vehicles that are both well balanced, but which have distinctly different faces:

 

 

Now if Ford's designers in the EU and NA can work together to create an overall shape that can have two different faces grafted onto it without corrupting the overall flow of the car; then that is one thing.

 

However, I do not want to see any more of this:

Edited August 24, 2007 by RichardJensen

[pcsario]

Lets not go there, you have never clarified what "american" design is, blocky, swoopy, mixed, etc.

 

The Edge and Flex are pretty generic if you think about it, change the badge/grille and they could be from anyone.

 

I think Bob Lutz said it best when he bashed focus groups:

 

Good design is just something that can be appreciated, not described.

[RichardJensen]

Lets not go there, you have never clarified what "american" design is, blocky, swoopy, mixed, etc.

 

The Edge and Flex are pretty generic if you think about it, change the badge/grille and they could be from anyone.

 

I think Bob Lutz said it best when he bashed focus groups:

 

Good design is just something that can be appreciated, not described.

No. Let's do go 'there'.

 

'American' design: Practical, Bold, Evocative.

 

'Practical', exemplified by the Model T, but seen also in pioneering work with glass & steel skyscrapers (heck, skyscrapers in general were quite practical before everyone owned a car).

 

'Bold', exemplified by novelty architecture, jazz music, the '37 Cord, etc.

 

'Evocative', exemplified by the '39 Lincoln Continental, the works of Alfred Hitchcock, and the architecture of Frank Lloyd Wright.

 

The cautions with these three characteristics are:

 

'Simplistic', Practicality taken too the point where the object is no longer practical--misdirected practicality. Examples include (of course) the Model T, the banal glass and steel skyscrapers of SOM and many, many other lesser architects, etc.

 

'Brash' Boldness that has not been restrained on this side of what is in good taste. Examples include the '59 Cadillac and Mercury, Howard Stern, gangsta rap, and death metal.

 

'Exploitative', When 'evocative' has been bypassed for 'nothing left to the imagination', full frontal nudity vs. decolletage, slasher pics vs. 'Vertigo' and 'Psycho', 'Die Another Day' vs. 'North by Northwest', Andrew Dice Clay vs. Jerry Seinfeld.

 

However, if Practical, Bold, Evocative creative works are distinctly American, then their excesses are similarly American.

 

-----

 

As far as Lutz bashing focus groups, that's about par for the course. Focus groups have no use to someone who's already made up his mind.

 

-----

 

And you could change the grille on the Mondeo and S-Max and they'd do just as well as elegantly designed Toyotas.

[NickF1011]

The Edge and Flex are pretty generic if you think about it, change the badge/grille and they could be from anyone.

 

Couldn't that be said for about 98% of cars on the road? Very few cars (aside from high end ones) are instantly recognizable simply by their shapes anymore. Everything comes down to a 2-box or 3-box shape in the end. It's the details in design (like the grille) that make one model stand apart from another.

[RichardJensen]

As opposed to 'American' design, I present "European"

 

European:

 

Sophisticated

 

Avant Garde / The 'New'

 

Compact

 

----

 

Sophistication - French cuisine, British society, German engineering, Italian cinema, the architecture of Rem Koolhaas.

 

Avant Garde - the better techno music, haute couture, the Bauhaus and its sans serif fonts vs. German Fraktur

 

Compact - The 2CV, the Fiat 128, the city centers of old Europe (built to pedestrian scale, as opposed to Hausman's boulevards in Paris, etc.)

 

----

 

The excesses would be:

 

Sophistry - Derrida & deconstruction, the overly refined sensitivities of the culture snobs in any of a number of European countries and ethnic groups.

 

'Shock of the New' - novelty for its own sake absent any other compelling interest than sheer surprise/offense, includes the work of more than a few fashion designers.

 

Cramped - 'Affordable' tourist lodgings.

 

I have over time been more interested in what makes a particular design noticeably American, as opposed to identifying that set of traits uniquely European, hopefully you'll pardon my somewhat more vague definitions here.

Edited August 24, 2007 by RichardJensen

[Deanh]

As opposed to 'American' design, I present "European"

 

European:

 

Sophisticated

 

Avant Garde / The 'New'

 

Compact

 

----

 

Sophistication - French cuisine, British society, German engineering, Italian cinema, the architecture of Rem Koolhaas.

 

Avant Garde - the better techno music, haute couture, the Bauhaus and its sans serif fonts vs. German Fraktur

 

Compact - The 2CV, the Fiat 128, the city centers of old Europe (built to pedestrian scale, as opposed to Hausman's boulevards in Paris, etc.)

 

----

 

The excesses would be:

 

Sophistry - Derrida & deconstruction, the overly refined sensitivities of the culture snobs in any of a number of European countries and ethnic groups.

 

'Shock of the New' - novelty for its own sake absent any other compelling interest than sheer surprise/offense, includes the work of more than a few fashion designers.

 

Cramped - 'Affordable' tourist lodgings.

 

I have over time been more interested in what makes a particular design noticeably American, as opposed to identifying that set of traits uniquely European, hopefully you'll pardon my somewhat more vague definitions here.

how about grace and elegance in comparison with brassness and heavyhanded-ness....you can pick whom is whom.....there really is a diff between American and Euro...however...a LOT of the top selling cars here are euro.....that said there have been HUGE flops on both sides....but right now to me at least as far as styling gos it is a one horse race......

[g48150]

Guys, Guys, Guys, listen up, I'll give you all a free lesson in Ford's GPDS (Global Product Development System)

 

Powertrain

Underbody

Upperbody

 

Powertrain = Engine and Trans, some body controls like IC commands, things like that

Underbody = Chassis and Safety, things like shocks, active suspension, airbags

 

These are the two things that are going to be global, the shit that NO ONE SEES

 

Upperbody = Stuff you see all the time, Microsoft Sync, Radio, Nav, Mirrors, Door Locks, etc.

 

I figure that 2/3 of your shit is global, is 2/3 less that you have to spend.

 

Nuff said, you, pay me.

[RichardJensen]

how about grace and elegance in comparison with brassness and heavyhanded-ness

Uh, how about we NOT choose pejoratives to describe things that are -different- not superior or inferior to each other.

 

Or are we still playing the 'best of Europe against the worst of the US' game?

 

a LOT of the top selling cars here are euro.....

Zuh?

 

F150 = about as European as the Rocky Mountains, Mount Rushmore, and Big Macs

 

Chevy Silverado = see comments above

 

Camry = fat Mazda6

 

Dodge Ram = See comments about F150

 

Honda Accord = bloated and twisted Alfa 164 (there's your Euro)

 

Chevy Impala = Not sure exactly.

 

Toyota Corolla = Not anything

 

Honda Civic = Space ship from 2001

 

etc...

 

When do we get to 'Euro'? The Ford Focus?

[Deanh]

Uh, how about we NOT choose pejoratives to describe things that are -different- not superior or inferior to each other.

 

Or are we still playing the 'best of Europe against the worst of the US' game?

 

 

Zuh?

 

F150 = about as European as the Rocky Mountains, Mount Rushmore, and Big Macs

 

Chevy Silverado = see comments above

 

Camry = fat Mazda6

 

Dodge Ram = See comments about F150

 

Honda Accord = bloated and twisted Alfa 164 (there's your Euro)

 

Chevy Impala = Not sure exactly.

 

Toyota Corolla = Not anything

 

Honda Civic = Space ship from 2001

 

etc...

 

When do we get to 'Euro'? The Ford Focus?

ahhhh .....see you made your own assumptions on which styling was on which side of the pond.....just underlines what I said...... pickups arent even sold in Euro.....and I do like the F-150 and Superduty....trucks can handle heavy-handed-ness....for the life ogf me i am trying to think of a vehicle from ANY American manufacturer that embraces elegance such as Alfas, Peugeots...hell even Citreons....they just seem to look more lithe, graceful and lighter on their feet....granted Euro and American styling have their differences...but have we become too obsessed with "presence"? We really have nothing euro here, probably why we all whine....we always want what we cannot have....

[Deanh]

LOT of the top selling cars here are euro.....sorry .....VW's, Audis, 3 series, C-series, Volvos, Minis ( ahem )....Alfas are coming, and Smarts....styling alone will help them sell...that and the fact everyone wants to be different and stand out,

Edited August 25, 2007 by Deanh

[wescoent]

Guys, Guys, Guys, listen up, I'll give you all a free lesson in Ford's GPDS (Global Product Development System)

 

Powertrain

Underbody

Upperbody

 

Powertrain = Engine and Trans, some body controls like IC commands, things like that

Underbody = Chassis and Safety, things like shocks, active suspension, airbags

 

These are the two things that are going to be global, the shit that NO ONE SEES

 

Upperbody = Stuff you see all the time, Microsoft Sync, Radio, Nav, Mirrors, Door Locks, etc.

 

I figure that 2/3 of your shit is global, is 2/3 less that you have to spend.

 

Nuff said, you, pay me.

 

Exactly. From a cost perspective, it doesn't matter one bit whether American Fords and Euro Fords are styled the same, because the cost difference is virtually nothing compared to having two entirely seperate chassis, suspensions, engines, transmissions, developed independently of each other.

 

It makes a lot more sense to style them differently, because like I said, then Mercurys could carry Euro Ford sheetmetal on common chassis mounting points.

[wescoent]

LOT of the top selling cars here are euro.....sorry .....VW's, Audis, 3 series, C-series, Volvos, Minis ( ahem )....Alfas are coming, and Smarts....styling alone will help them sell...that and the fact everyone wants to be different and stand out,

 

None of those sell in any significant volume. Even the 3-Series doesn't sell THAT many.

[jpd80]

If were talking global platforms surely there's a lot of room to move on body work.

Ok, take the new Taurus and MKS. They're on the same platform but all the sheet metal and doors are changed.

Not sure but I'd nearly bet if the doors and roof are changed so is the tumblehome.

 

Now if Ford can justify doing this for Lincoln, why can't FNA and FoE/Ford Global do the same with several platforms?

Over-simplistic I know but think about how much money Ford must burn through at the present with

all the individual platforms around the world.

Edited August 25, 2007 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

LOT of the top selling cars here are euro.....sorry .....VW's, Audis, 3 series, C-series, Volvos, Minis ( ahem )....Alfas are coming, and Smarts....styling alone will help them sell...that and the fact everyone wants to be different and stand out,

????????????????????????

 

Ford sells more F150s than VW sells of everything combined.

 

Lincoln outsells Audi.

 

The 3 series isn't even the best selling entry-level luxury car, the Lexus is.

 

I mean you can total up all those cars that you listed, and still have room left over in the space occupied by the F-series.

 

----

 

And excuse me, but 'heavy handed' is an insult--One might just as well look at these puny flimsy Alfas as those heavy handed Super Duties.

 

I used neutral to positive language to describe both American and European design. You're the one who had to resort to value-biased language. The British born designer of the 427 concept car said that he didn't 'get' big American cars till he came to America.

 

Might I suggest that you spend some time driving from Yellowstone to Minneapolis on the old "Yellowstone Highway (U.S. 12) in a tightly sprung Mini before you continue to assert that European cars are 'better', or that European design is 'better.'

 

 

It's not. It's just DIFFERENT.

[RichardJensen]

If were talking global platforms surely there's a lot of room to move on body work.

Right. The problem is that there appears to be a top-down push to share more bodywork than is necessary.

[jpd80]

Right. The problem is that there appears to be a top-down push to share more bodywork than is necessary.

Well that would be just plain silly and repeating the last world car stuff up.

No. I think we'll see platform sharing with unique bodies for NA and rest of the world.

Otherwise they're playing with fire...

The debate on this thread shows an window into the ensuing problem.

Edited August 25, 2007 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

Well that would be just plain silly and repeating the last world car stuff up.

Can't find a sound clip of Phoebe from Friends saying "I knoooooowwwwwww", but it's about the best response, I can think of.

[RichardJensen]

Wow. Those are some crazy thumbnails the internet just attached to my post.

[LincolnFan]

Richard, I blame you for the attachments.

[jpd80]

Wow. Those are some crazy thumbnails the internet just attached to my post.

The other night, a photo someone was uplifting attached to my post too.

Is it likely to be a a virus or just funny commands?

Not guilty:

Edited August 25, 2007 by jpd80

[silvrsvt]

None of those sell in any significant volume. Even the 3-Series doesn't sell THAT many.

 

 

not to mention most of them save the VWs start at 25K+