August 2007 - Premium CUVs

[RichardJensen]

We don't have the real internal targets.

Yeah. Why don't you hire OJ to help you find the real targets.

 

Right after he finds the 'real killers'

Edited September 7, 2007 by RichardJensen

[suv_guy_19]

We don't have the real internal targets, RJ's memory doesn't count.

 

Facts are:

- Fusion was never supposed to be sold outside of NA, ditto with the Milan.

- Now they're exported to other countries because of softer than expected demand in NA.

 

By RJ's definition of "success", the Charger, Avenger, etc. are huge hits too.

 

Selling on average barely three Fusions per dealer is amazingly telling.

 

 

Well, if we don't know internal targets, how do you consider it to be a failure?

Edited September 7, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[pcsario]

On average, only three Fusions are sold per dealer and it's only getting sales from the bottom feeders (Kias, Pontiacs, etc).

 

None of the market leaders were affected by it.

 

Honda felt threatened in 2002 by the Altima, which is why they boosted the HP count to not be left behind.

 

Using the "well, the plant is working at capacity and they're making a profit" logic, the Avenger and other vehicles must be success stories too.

 

Calling the Fusion a "success", has --and will be-- a stretch.

 

Anyway, back on topic.

Edited September 7, 2007 by pcsario

[FordBuyer]

Dunno, ask Hertz or Taxi cab companies.

 

How's the retail demand Vs. the CR-V?

 

I guess we were wrong after all, Ford only needed three models to get the sales Honda gets with only 1 version... lol

 

I really think it's hard to get a real read on Escape sales yet because Kansas City working overtime still hasn't adequately stocked dealers yet. I notice that most Escape buyers are probably ordered and waiting for build dates as there is little stock on lot to choose from as yet. The Dealer by me never has more than two in stock, often none, and those that come in are ordered and not for sale to anyone walking in off street. Bill Brown Ford is huge dealer with maybe 200 Edges in stock, 75 new Tauruses, 200 Fusions, hundreds of Explorers and F-150s, and never has more than TEN Escapes in stock. I talked with one Ford dealer about problem, and he told me we have Escapes on order and trying to build adequate supply of them, but so far they just trickle in and usually to a waiting buyer who ordered one 6 weeks ago. Look it up....only about a 30 day supply of Escapes out there with 60 being ideal supply.

[RichardJensen]

All very interesting PC, but as suv_guy_19 said, if you don't know what Ford's numbers were either in volume or transaction price, how do you know if it is a failure?

[pcsario]

The CR-V is a success story.

[suv_guy_19]

The CR-V is a success story.

 

 

But its ugly. It only offers a weak I4. How can you like it. Also, how do you know its internal targets, or its profit per unit.

[FordBuyer]

Why don't you furnish some proof, instead of implying that you know what you're talking about?

 

See. You can pinpoint occasions where I'm wrong (for instance, predicting that a trio of heavy and overpriced CUVs with medicore gas mileage wouldn't sell--who knew?).

 

You, by little digs like this, create problems for yourself -all the time-.

 

BTW, if you go back and look, my concrete prediction was that cumulative Lambda volume would exceed the Freestyle, but no single model would.

 

Had Ford spent a dime marketing the Freestyle in years 2 and 3, who knows? I might've been right.

 

We'll see what happens with the Taurus X vs. the Acadia.

 

 

The dude just won't admit he's wrong about Escape. And he will be eating crow with new Focus too. The new Escape has been out for some six months, Kansas City has been working overtime all year, and still only 30 day supply of them and incentives are modest. How is that not successful? Furthermore, next year Escape gets 6 speed trans and improved V6 with better fuel economy and power. Shortly after that it moves to Kuga platform. Ditto with Focus...complete reskin and all new interior and much more refined car for the money to make room for new B segment vehicle, and you get the boo birds out condemning vehicle before it hits dealer, and then won't even admit they are wrong after it sells rather well with low supply and lower incentives. What gets me the most though is do you think Ford would have built new Escape with same drivetrain if they did have better drivetrain available. Yes, that is their fault too, but the reality was they didn't have the new drivetrain, and instead will have it next year. Doesn't seem to be bothering too many though as Escapes sales are still a bright spot in sales figures. And Focus is second best selling vehicle Ford has right now, and the new Focus will keep it right there. I will bet you Wayne Assembly works overtime for at least another year supplying dealers with this vehicle. But I guess the boo birds will just say that most Escape/Focus sales go to Hertz with no proof to back it up as you say. Like all the Escapes/Focus you see on the road have Hertz stickers somewhere. Wishful thinking, I would say.

[Michael Reynolds]

On average, only three Fusions are sold per dealer and it's only getting sales from the bottom feeders (Kias, Pontiacs, etc).

 

None of the market leaders were affected by it.

 

Honda felt threatened in 2002 by the Altima, which is why they boosted the HP count to not be left behind.

 

Using the "well, the plant is working at capacity and they're making a profit" logic, the Avenger and other vehicles must be success stories too.

 

Calling the Fusion a "success", has --and will be-- a stretch.

 

Anyway, back on topic.

 

Where do you get your information from? I mean some of it could be looked at as common sense, but sometimes hardcore evidence can defy that logic. So again where are you getting all of this hardcore evidence from?

[pcsario]

The dude just won't admit he's wrong about Escape. And he will be eating crow with new Focus too.

No I'm not wrong, but speaking about eating crow... who are the ones who just won't admit they were wrong?

 

Honda has stronger retail demand for their product and is working overtime too, their fleet mix is lower as well.

 

They'll even start building the CR-V elsewhere, again just to meet the strong RETAIL demand.

 

Ford lost two of its most important titles to a single zero-to-hero competitor.

 

A sales feat accomplished with only ONE version, not three. See what happens when you don't take the cheap & mediocre route?

 

If I was wrong about the Escape, all of the above WOULDN'T have happened.

 

Again, all that with just 1 version, not 3 + heavy fleet sales.

 

The FuckUs is not a better value than either the Mazda3 or the Rabbit, if it stops the exodus of customers then great, expecting it to be the second coming is retarded. By Ford's own admission, the program went vastly overbudget, and at the end of the day they'll have saved no money than if they had just brought the C1 Focus back in 2005, which would've resulted in almost eight straight years of being the segment-best pick, all things considered.

 

I would say YOU people are the ones who try your harderst to admit you were wrong about anything.

Edited September 7, 2007 by pcsario

[FordBuyer]

But its ugly. It only offers a weak I4. How can you like it. Also, how do you know its internal targets, or its profit per unit.

 

Could you imagine the boo birds on here if Ford had just offered a 4 cylinder engine on its new Escape? You would never here the end of it. I read one of the first reviews of the CRV by Paul Lienert and he gave CRV average rating based upon no avialability of V6 option. You can't argue its sales which are outstanding, but most would agree it's a flawed vehicle with only 4 cylinder available. You would think Pscario would be the last person to defend it. I could see him defending the Rav4, but not the CRV. You have to be more consistent Pscario to build credibility. You should be panning the CRV just like you panned the Escape no matter how well it sells.

[suv_guy_19]

Could you imagine the boo birds on here if Ford had just offered a 4 cylinder engine on its new Escape? You would never here the end of it. I read one of the first reviews of the CRV by Paul Lienert and he gave CRV average rating based upon no avialability of V6 option. You can't argue its sales which are outstanding, but most would agree it's a flawed vehicle with only 4 cylinder available. You would think Pscario would be the last person to defend it. I could see him defending the Rav4, but not the CRV. You have to be more consistent Pscario to build credibility. You should be panning the CRV just like you panned the Escape no matter how well it sells.

 

 

The thing about the Escape is, as you pointed out, they can't build enough. They can't sell them if they don't have them. It's sales were most likely down this month because there weren't enough to fill demand.

Edited September 7, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[Edstock]

On average, only three Fusions are sold per dealer and it's only getting sales from the bottom feeders (Kias, Pontiacs, etc).

 

None of the market leaders were affected by it.

 

Calling the Fusion a "success", has --and will be-- a stretch.

 

3 Fusions per dealer? That's OK, now, let's try for 4 per month. As to the new owners being bottom-feeders, fine, their money is as good as any other's. If they like the car, their market leader-owning friends will hear about it. Foreign/Asian-minded consumers will be won over only over time. They'll be the target for the 2nd-generation Fusion.

 

So, as a FIRST generation of a new Ford brand, the Fusion has done quite well against Asian mids that are in their 4th generation.

[pcsario]

Could you imagine the boo birds on here if Ford had just offered a 4 cylinder engine on its new Escape? You would never here the end of it. I read one of the first reviews of the CRV by Paul Lienert and he gave CRV average rating based upon no avialability of V6 option. You can't argue its sales which are outstanding, but most would agree it's a flawed vehicle with only 4 cylinder available. You would think Pscario would be the last person to defend it. I could see him defending the Rav4, but not the CRV. You have to be more consistent Pscario to build credibility. You should be panning the CRV just like you panned the Escape no matter how well it sells.

The sales gap between the 2, would only get worse if Honda also offered 3 versions, and decided to start dumping it into fleets too.

 

I guess we should ignore all the reviews who praise the fact it's similarly as fast as the V6 Escape, while also offering better fuel economy, and minimize all the effort Honda put into it. As was stated, they didn't take the cheap and easy route. they tried much harder, and the marketplace is just rewarding them.

 

Common sense would dictate we SHOULDN'T praise mediocrity, but if you want me to kiss Ford's ass for stuff like rehashing old products, downgrading the rear brakes (from discs to drums), etc. then I guess I just don't like to be a yes man, like most people here.

Edited September 7, 2007 by pcsario

[suv_guy_19]

The sales gap between the 2 would only be bigger if it also offered 3 versions & Honda decided to start dumping it into fleets too.

 

I guess we should ignore all the reviews who praise the fact it's similarly as fast as the V6 Escape, while also offering better fuel economy.

 

Common sense would dictate we SHOULDN'T praise mediocrity and should demand the best effort possible, but if you want me to kiss Ford's ass for stuff like degrading the rear brakes (from discs to drums) then I guess I just don't like to be a yes man.

 

 

But the CRV is far from the best effort possible. How can it be when it's lacking so much?

[FordBuyer]

The sales gap between the 2, would only get worse if Honda also offered 3 versions, and decided to start dumping it into fleets too.

 

I guess we should ignore all the reviews who praise the fact it's similarly as fast as the V6 Escape, while also offering better fuel economy, and minimize all the effort Honda put into it. As was stated, they didn't take the cheap and easy route. they tried much harder, and the marketplace is just rewarding them.

 

Common sense would dictate we SHOULDN'T praise mediocrity, but if you want me to kiss Ford's ass for stuff like rehashing old products, downgrading the rear brakes (from discs to drums), etc. then I guess I just don't like to be a yes man, like most people here.

 

How come you don't get it? Offering only a 4 cylinder into a box on wheels is the very definition of mediocrity. The CRV is a mediocre vehicle and the C it got from Paul Lienert was deserved. How about while condemning Ford products you criticize the vehicles you tell us are better too. The lack of a V6 in this segment is not good. Btw, V6's have more torque and offer better passing power, are more refined, quieter, and climb hills better along with being more durable with less vibration. I have read many user reviews on the CRV, and many lament the lack of a V6 and are not particularlly happy with only 4 cylinder choice. Granted, Honda makes exceptional small engines, but they are not especially suited for boxes on wheels.

 

And tell me...will you be as critical when in about 9 months or so Escape offers around 235 hp V6, more powerful 2.5 liter I4, and 6 speed trans while CRV is stuck with 5 speed trans. Will you hammer at that fact like you do drum brakes on rear of Escape? I bet you don't.

[Ralph Greene]

Honda believes their 4 cylinder engine is more than adequate for their CUV. It's part of their philosophy about how best to build these kind of vehicles. They feel the same way about their Accord, but bow to public opinion and provide a larger engine for that car as an option. But they don't think a 3200-3400 LB vehicle needs more than 4 cylinder power for it's purpose. They have made this statement over and over. I agree with them. 4 cylinder Accord and Camry's are more than adequate for their purpose. And I'm a guy who enjoys supercharged muscle cars.

 

The buying public must agree with them. They are very sucessful with that philosophy. I wish more companies would forget about the HP wars for people movers. Give people movers what they need, and give muscle and sports cars what they need.

 

In the FWIW category....I also think the Fusion and Milan have more than adequate power from their 2.3 for their purpose as well. MY mother in law's 3.0 Milan Premier has way more power than that car needs for how she uses it.

[Deanh]

Dunno, ask Hertz or Taxi cab companies.

 

How's the retail demand Vs. the CR-V?

 

I guess we were wrong after all, Ford only needed three models to get the sales Honda gets with only 1 version... lol

Sorry PC...i will call you on that...very FEW Escapes in rental and the taxis are Hybrids............

[FordBuyer]

Honda believes their 4 cylinder engine is more than adequate for their CUV. It's part of their philosophy about how best to build these kind of vehicles. They feel the same way about their Accord, but bow to public opinion and provide a larger engine for that car as an option. But they don't think a 3200-3400 LB vehicle needs more than 4 cylinder power for it's purpose. They have made this statement over and over. I agree with them. 4 cylinder Accord and Camry's are more than adequate for their purpose. And I'm a guy who enjoys supercharged muscle cars.

 

The buying public must agree with them. They are very sucessful with that philosophy. I wish more companies would forget about the HP wars for people movers. Give people movers what they need, and give muscle and sports cars what they need.

 

In the FWIW category....I also think the Fusion and Milan have more than adequate power from their 2.3 for their purpose as well. MY mother in law's 3.0 Milan Premier has way more power than that car needs for how she uses it.

 

 

I agree with you on mid sized cars and smaller that are aerodynamic and 4 cylinder offers decent power. But I don't agree with you on SUV's, especially when they are towing, are loaded down with gear, and fighting aerodynamic drag up hills and such. I do notice that the new CRV looks more like a car than a truck and maybe Honda is going somewhere else with this vehicle. I guess it has turned into a little CUV. One could argue that the Escape is a CUV, but especially the new one looks like small UTE truck. Interesting though that a small ute gets changed into more car like with anemic motor, and Accord turns into full sized vehicle that weighs almost as much as Taurus and V6 is expensive option. Honda vehicles for the most part are getting larger and larger. The new Civic is no lighweight anymore and bigger than older Accords. So the cars get bigger and bigger and their small truck stays small with small motor and no other choices. Go figure. So if you want small from Honda nowadays, buy a Fit or a CRV.

[suv_guy_19]

I agree with you on mid sized cars and smaller that are aerodynamic and 4 cylinder offers decent power. But I don't agree with you on SUV's, especially when they are towing, are loaded down with gear, and fighting aerodynamic drag up hills and such. I do notice that the new CRV looks more like a car than a truck and maybe Honda is going somewhere else with this vehicle. I guess it has turned into a little CUV. One could argue that the Escape is a CUV, but especially the new one looks like small UTE truck. Interesting though that a small ute gets changed into more car like with anemic motor, and Accord turns into full sized vehicle that weighs almost as much as Taurus and V6 is expensive option. Honda vehicles for the most part are getting larger and larger. The new Civic is no lighweight anymore and bigger than older Accords. So the cars get bigger and bigger and their small truck stays small with small motor and no other choices. Go figure. So if you want small from Honda nowadays, buy a Fit or a CRV.

 

 

Actually, I wouldn't really even call the CRV small. It is actually quite large. Its low, but not small.

[RichardJensen]

-everything- is bigger than an old Accord.

 

I do wonder about some of Honda's moves lately. Dollar for dollar, the late 90s 4-cyl. manual Accords were and continue to be one of the best bargains money can buy. Reliable, spacious, efficient, decent ride and handling. What more could you want?

 

They seem to be going backwards from that... Not sure why...

[Anthony]

C'mon already. I tried reading the thread about the Mazda 6 and its 3 or 4 pages of the RJ and pscario show. Now this one? If he's a troll, then just ignore him or ban him. Enough already.

[RichardJensen]

Sorry Intrepidatious.... It's just so interesting...

[FordBuyer]

-everything- is bigger than an old Accord.

 

I do wonder about some of Honda's moves lately. Dollar for dollar, the late 90s 4-cyl. manual Accords were and continue to be one of the best bargains money can buy. Reliable, spacious, efficient, decent ride and handling. What more could you want?

 

They seem to be going backwards from that... Not sure why...

 

 

LOL! Americans are getting bigger, wider, and need giant cup holders for their giant 90oz. behemoth gulps from 7/11. Americans just don't fit in smaller vehicles anymore, unless they are skinny teenagers. Car are getting bigger and bigger and heavier and heavier. It's like the 50's and later 60's and 70's all over again. The 50's cars were a nice size, and then turned into behemoths soon after as the 60's continued and continued into the 70's until the gas crisis hit and then cars got smaller again a la Mustangll. Each new Camry and Accord gets bigger than last and each Corolla and Civic does same. Ditto for BMW and Mercedes as their cars are heavier than ever. They grow as much as Americans grow out. I remember in High School average linemen averaged about 190 pounds and college linemen maybe 230. Now the average good high school team linemen average 285 and college linemen average 320. The average Ameican had done the same with many Americans on other side of 200 and much of poplulation obese and then some. How the hell Congress and auto industry is going to get control of fuel mileage I don't know. I notice a lot of Americans get into their car and whole side of car slides way down on suspension. Two big adults in back seat and bumper is almost touching ground. Btw, a lot of Congress is overweight and must tax a vehicle a lot. Good luck.

With all the obesity going on, even among children, God help us all with future health care costs to deal with this health epidemic.