Cadillac to replace DTS, STS with 1 car

[Edstock]

What does this topic have to do with Ford?

 

Lots. Cadillac is the long-time Lincoln competitor. It is instructive to observe how they are moving to re-establish themselves under the BMW/Lexus/AUDI/Infiniti/Mercedes/Lincoln/Acura onslaught.

 

Makes the MK S look better and better.

 

As to 3-series or smaller, luxury build quality costs, or you get a Cimarron, so this means that the consumer perception that smaller=cheaper has to be changed. The type of mind that appreciates this tends to buy imported.

[Pioneer]

Lots. Cadillac is the long-time Lincoln competitor.

 

 

Then it should be in the competition section, not the Ford.

Edited September 18, 2007 by Pioneer

[wescoent]

The entry-level model will be RWD on the GM Alpha platform, and should hardly be a slouch in any performance category.

 

The big Cadillac is another question mark. Buick is indeed moving upmarket, and we will get the next generation Park Avenue here to replace the Lucerne. A tentative guess would be that Cadillac will rework Zeta for this car, but its size and target market is another question entirely. I suspect it will be kind of a "sweet spot" large sedan in the spirit of the MKS, plusher than the STS, but sportier than the DTS.

 

For once, Lincoln appears to be taking the lead. Cadillac has abandoned its quest to build a fleet of American BMWs from Sigma, and is instead reworking standard fare GM platforms. They will be getting a small crossover based on the Saab 9-4X (itself based on the Equinox/Torrent), a new sedan based on Zeta, an Escalade based on the Tahoe, an XLR based on the Corvette, and a CTS and SRX (rumored to be dead soon) on an orphaned Sigma chassis. Who's laughing now about rebadged Fords?

[ANTAUS]

In relation to Lincoln, I would guess that if the supposed RWD passenger car architecture that Ford will build, spins of a luxury model as what rumours state, then that could possibly be the top Lincoln offering, while keeping MarKuS in the middle, then MarKZy as the entry.

[taxman100]

I've seen a number of the new DTS on the road - they look small, boxy and kind of cheap for a "full size" Cadillac. 3,800 lbs does not make a Cadillac "full size".

 

The last model year Deville I liked was 2005 - and it was a step down from the late 90's models.

 

Good Lord - no full size Cadillac, and the Town Car being starved to death? What a strange time we live in.

[suv_guy_19]

I've seen a number of the new DTS on the road - they look small, boxy and kind of cheap for a "full size" Cadillac. 3,800 lbs does not make a Cadillac "full size".

 

The last model year Deville I liked was 2005 - and it was a step down from the late 90's models.

 

Good Lord - no full size Cadillac, and the Town Car being starved to death? What a strange time we live in.

 

 

Yeah, 207 inches long, 74.5 inches wide, tiny car. that is about the biggest car I would drive. My comfort range is between 190 and 205 inches.

[waymondospiff]

Don't forget - the CTS is freakin' huge for an entry level product:

 

CTS - 191.6" long, 72.5" wide, 58.0" tall, 3,874 lbs heavy

TL - 189.3" long, 72.2" wide, 56.7" tall, 3,623 lbs heavy

ES350 - 191.1" long, 71.7" wide, 57.3" tall, 3,580 lbs heavy

335i - 178.2" long, 71.5" wide, 55.9" tall, 3,593 lbs heavy

 

The CTS is a big honkin' car. Size-wise there's plenty of room for a vehicle to slot-in underneath the CTS.

 

And engine-wise there's room underneath the CTS. GM has either a Saab Turbo-fied 2.0L Ecotec or the "high-feature" 2.8L V6 before moving up to the 3.6L V6 of the CTS. And with the STS leaving the fleet, the CTS could move up market by offering the 4.6L Northstar V8.

 

Factor in equipment and the growing "premium compact" category (S40 & C30, A3, 1-Series) and this could be a very wise move by Cadillac.

 

Scott

[630land]

CTS almost weighs as much as the BOF 1977 DeVilles, 4000 lbs.

 

I am sure the GM fanboys are spinning saying "oh no they have to keep FWD for snow!". As if the whole USA is the NE states.

[rmc523]

Cadillac to replace DTS, STS with 1 car

 

Jamie LaReau

Automotive News

September 17, 2007 - 12:01 am EST

 

 

 

FRANKFURT — The head of Cadillac says the DTS and STS sedans will be replaced by one premium-luxury sedan. Cadillac also will look seriously at an entry-level vehicle priced around $28,000.

 

The premium-luxury segment was booming five years ago when Cadillac introduced the DTS and STS. But since then, the segment has shrunk and so have DTS and STS sales.

 

Through August, Cadillac sold 33,368 DTS sedans, down 13.9 percent compared with the year-ago period. The STS accounted for 13,156 sales, down 24.7 percent from a year earlier.

 

“So arguably, we don't need two entries there anymore, given the shrinkage of that segment,” Jim Taylor, Cadillac's general manager, said last week in an interview here with Automotive News.

 

Taylor said that neither car is going away per se but, rather, one car will combine the best attributes of both and eventually fill that segment. He did not give a time frame.

 

I think we all saw the merging of these two vehicles coming a while ago.

[rmc523]

Honestly, I thought the CTS was supposed to be the entry level. So, why go smaller? Do they have a FWD/AWD combo in mind similar to the Lincoln MKZ?

 

As for the merging of the DTS/STS, I'm not really sure how that will work. I have much more appreciation for the DTS styling over the STS styling and I'm thinking that such a replacement would be given more STS influence. Cadillac execs should remember their American public and their traditional roots. I certainly don't mean a revisit of the massive Fleetwood, but the DTS is a handsome car...it just has the wrong drive wheels IMO.

 

The CTS, while it started out as an 'entry-level' vehicle, has grown to 5 series size, thus creating the 'need' for an entry-level vehicle.

[rmc523]

I mean, how do you differentiate it?

 

Is it smaller? If so, how do you manage to sell higher trim models that are more profitable and that sell closer to the CTS at retail?

 

Less standard equipment? If so, how do you manage to sell higher trim models that are comparably equipped to the CTS?

 

More emphasis on 'sport'? If so, how do you prop up the CTS image as the 'Caddy that zigs?'

 

More emphasis on 'luxury'? If so, how do you include luxury at a $28k price point?

 

I mean, we're not even talking the $6k spread between the Fusion and the Taurus (at a $18-24k) let alone the $12k price difference between the 3 and 5

 

I'm not sure how they would do it. Lexus does it by having the IS be sport oriented and the ES being 'luxury' oriented.

 

I dont know how this would work w/ Caddy trying to be 'sporty' w/ the CTS. As you said, they couldnt really go the 'luxury' route, being a $28K car.

[RichardJensen]

CTS is the same size it's always been, and I question the ability to fit a car into a slot that's all of $4,000 wide and who knows how many units deep.

[rmc523]

Holden are developing the Alpha platform which will is slated to replace 2010 BLS.

It's based on Torana concept but with different styling:

 

The concept was fitted with a TT 3.6 litre V6 (400 Hp)

That's not a bad looking car (except for the color, yuck!)

 

Those do look like Mercury headlights.

[rmc523]

Lots. Cadillac is the long-time Lincoln competitor. It is instructive to observe how they are moving to re-establish themselves under the BMW/Lexus/AUDI/Infiniti/Mercedes/Lincoln/Acura onslaught.

 

Makes the MK S look better and better.

 

As to 3-series or smaller, luxury build quality costs, or you get a Cimarron, so this means that the consumer perception that smaller=cheaper has to be changed. The type of mind that appreciates this tends to buy imported.

 

Didn't a little company called Jaguar try to go this "smaller/cheaper, entry-level vehicle" route? We all see how that one turned out (although w/ the new XK, XF, etc. things are looking up IMO)

[jpd80]

That's not a bad looking car (except for the color, yuck!)

 

Those do look like Mercury headlights.

Yeah, this was the Torana TT36 concept that preceeded the release of the Zeta Commodore.

Holden borrowed heavily from the parts bin of a couple of existing cars.

Wouldn't surprise me if Daewoo don't get the nod to build them in Asia.

 

Word is the Alpha can be expanded just like the Zeta but not quite as big so

maybe BLS and CTS are SWB and LWB versions.

[silvrsvt]

Factor in equipment and the growing "premium compact" category (S40 & C30, A3, 1-Series) and this could be a very wise move by Cadillac.

 

Scott

 

I still have a hard time justifying spending 30K+ on a car the size of a Focus.

[jpd80]

I still have a hard time justifying spending 30K+ on a car the size of a Focus.

Try a RWD competitor to the MKS with a 300Hp V6

[silvrsvt]

Try a RWD competitor to the MKS with a 300Hp V6

 

Huh?

 

We talking Lincoln or Caddy here?

 

MKS is going to be full-sized car vs a compact car that Caddy is talking about...

 

Now a RWD Flagship over the MKS would be nice

[wescoent]

Here's my question on the entry-level Cadillac thing:

 

CTS can be had for under $30k. MSRP is only $32k.

 

How much of a gap is there underneath the CTS?

 

I mean do they seriously think that a car smaller than the CTS selling for a base MSRP of $28k isn't going to walk out the door for less than $27k most of the time?

 

And what kind of cachet does Caddy get for selling a $26-7k car? Is the idea that some 'super luxury' sedan at the $70k end is going to make this all okay? And if so, given their difficulties selling the STS, why do they think, not having mastered the STS segment, that they can go to some segment where they've never been before and compete? Into some stratospheric level where -name- means everything?

 

I think there's a fairly big gap under the CTS in more ways than one. Speaking purely on price, there is a small gap. In all seriousness, I doubt many CTSs leave the showroom for under $35-36k.

 

The product gap is larger still. There is an enormous size difference between the CTS and 3-Series, both in length and height. The CTS has simply become too large to be truly sporty. It just gets to a point with some cars that their sheer weight overwhelms all the perfect weight balances and fine-tuned suspensions they can muster. The 5-Series is a balanced handler for sure, but I'd be hard-pressed to say it's remotely fun to drive.

 

I would venture to say that if the product delivers, Cadillac isn't losing any cachet. The reason the Cimarron failed wasn't because Cadillac was selling a small, inexpensive car. It was becauce Cadillac was selling a rough, poorly assembled, horrible-driving, unreliable tin can assembled alongside even worse Chevys. If this small Cadillac (BTS) has a high quality interior, reasonable engines, a manual transmission, a nice drive, and hopefully a V-Series model, it will sell reasonably well.

[Traveler]

If the Twin Force V6 is to become a reality along with high 300 or low 400 horsepower ratings, then what would be stopping Lincoln from building the MKR? I think it would reestablish Lincoln as a premier luxury car manufacturer and with an innovative engine such as the Twin Force, it would probably be popular. If a full size sedan can produce that level of presumed performance with fuel economy of six-cylinder, I cannot image Ford not proceeding with the MKR and the Inteceptor.

 

Perhaps Cadillac considers the MKR to be a future production model and is making plans to counter a new flagship RWD Lincoln. However, if we stack a hypothetical Lincoln lineup, we would have:

 

MKR

MKS

MKZ

MKX

Navigator

 

Against the current Cadillac line-up you would have:

 

DTS

STS

CTS

SRX

Escalade

Escalade EXT

XLR

 

If Cadillac merges the DTS and STS together, then that car would by default seem to assume the role as the Cadillac flagship sedan. Then with the news of a upcoming entry-level Cadillac, it appears that the CTS is to slide into the competitive role going up against the MKS, which is questionable to me. Can the CTS be competitive against the MKS?

 

As a side note, obviously Cadillac has the Escalade to stand against the Navigator, but Lincoln is left with nothing to compete against the EXT and the XLR, which arguably appeals to such a niche market, that Lincoln perhaps doesn't need to engage Cadillac in those respective classes, except for the sake of pride. Truly, at least to me, it looks as if Lincoln has solid management in place and a competitive model line ready to enter the next decade and of course, the MKR would be the icing on the cake, but admittedly, it likely would have a limited appeal of its own. There's no doubt the MKS and MKZ will be the make or break automobiles for Lincoln.

Edited September 18, 2007 by Traveler

[jpd80]

Huh?

 

We talking Lincoln or Caddy here?

 

MKS is going to be full-sized car vs a compact car that Caddy is talking about...

 

Now a RWD Flagship over the MKS would be nice

Sorry, I meant MKX

All those MK things are confusing to an Aussie boy.

[RichardJensen]

The CTS has simply become too large to be truly sporty.

Yeah. What's up with the 300lb weight gain? It's 1 1/2" longer than the outgoing model. I had no idea it had porked up so much.

 

Anyway, I still don't see a point--price wise, as opposed to driving dynamics wise--for this Caddy. It can't fit well into a $4k gap, and if it overlaps the CTS, I don't see it bringing in radically different customers, so your bread and butter CTS--your only real success story of the 'reinvented' Cadillac is going to get squeezed.

Edited September 18, 2007 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

Sorry, I meant MKX

All those MK things are confusing to an Aussie boy.

Actually, I think you meant MKZ.

[jpd80]

Actually, I think you meant MKZ.

Sorry, Richard.

I'll get it right one of these days

[old_fairmont_wagon]

You have to take the big picture when you look at Cadillac. Any "new" model that slots below the CTS will be years out from now. If we're just hearing about it, its at least three years from the show room. In the mean time, we know for certain that the STS will merge with the DTS to form a vehicle that is ever so slightly larger than an STS, every bit as luxurious as the DTS, and priced a bit higher than the existing STS.

 

That opens up room for the CTS to move up a bit. In three years, it wil likely move up market by about $4000 and a few more inches in size. It will likely gain the northstar V8 (however it exists at that point) as an engine option and have the Full house 3.6L V6 as its base engine.

 

This leaves a spot in the Cadillac lineup for a vehicle that is smaller than the CTS (which will likely be splitting the difference between where it is now and where the STS is now), less expensive than the CTS (which will likely be pushing the $37-$39K range at that point), and still has Cadillacs "rock and roll luxury" image. A mid-sized alpha based RWD sedan, probably close to the MkZ in size, with two engine choices (the smaller 2.8L V6 and the larger full house 3.6L DOHC) will likely find their way under the hood. The price range should be $28.5 to $34K or so.

 

This doesn't seem too outlandish to me. Will this impact CTS volume? Sure, it'll go down some. But, don't for a second think that all the STS buyers are gonna automatically go to the new flagship. some may find that the newly pushed upmarket CTS will be all that they want. This whole plan, taken long term, takes Cadillac from a set of three vehicles, the bottom of which sells well, but the upper two sell like crap. After the plan, they top end model will be more profitable and likely sell a bit better. The middle model will likely have more volume and be more profitable. The bottom end model will be more accessible to more buyers, and will likely also have good volume. That's if everything goes according to plan.