ShockFX Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Where such a release is possible. The Dodge Ram was woefully out of date, it was far behind the competition. I don't think it had a single selling point over Ford & GM--worse fuel economy, worse payload, worse style, worse ride, worse everything--- The F150 isn't, the GMT900s aren't, and today's Ram isn't that far off what could be considered 'best in class' The space to make that leap doesn't exist. Certainly not for Ford. If you work for Ford, this is the kind of absofuckinglutely terrible thought process that got them into this mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 You don't know that. Complacency is terrible for business. How is Ford being complacent? Theres far too much competition out there in the Truck market to allow yourself to go to hell like Dodge did before the 1994 truck.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 How is Ford being complacent? Theres far too much competition out there in the Truck market to allow yourself to go to hell like Dodge did before the 1994 truck.. Quote from RJ: "There is simply not room for a 'earth shaking' improvement to the half-ton--the major competitors have pushed each other hard for the last decade and a half and there simply are no weak players that can change the game by offering a significant upgrade to a previous offering." It's not that Ford is being complacent, it's that Richard is in denial that an 'earth shaking' improvement could occur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goingincirclez Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 The space to make that leap doesn't exist. Certainly not for Ford. Perhaps, but only in terms of "scale" (i.e. "what constitutes a 'leap'?") So Ford won't have any problem retaining those customers concerned with towing & payload. GREAT! Now why is there ANY reason they shouldn't look at why others choose to buy a Ram (HP), GMT900 (HP, FE), or Tundra (???) and make sure the new F-150 beats them as well? So you make sure the F-150 leads ALL key categories, and there's no compelling argument that could be made against it from any angle. THAT is what the next leap would be. And somebody will do it one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted October 5, 2007 Author Share Posted October 5, 2007 Quote from RJ:"There is simply not room for a 'earth shaking' improvement to the half-ton--the major competitors have pushed each other hard for the last decade and a half and there simply are no weak players that can change the game by offering a significant upgrade to a previous offering." It's not that Ford is being complacent, it's that Richard is in denial that an 'earth shaking' improvement could occur. WHAT earth shattering release can Ford make .. a 1000hp Truck that gets 2mpg? a diesel that gets 30mpg? a truck the flies? a truck made of aluminium? WHAT can they do to revolutionize the segment BUT not lose the key business customers - i.e. the people actually using the trucks. Look at the mid size market .. we talk a lot about "revolutionary product" but all the releases since 2000 or so have only brought marginal gradual improvement to the overall benchmark - even if individual automakers had significant releases and gains - Fusion, 08 Malibu, 2002 Altima - the overall segment did not change THAT much - those releases mostly caught up to the benchmark. In the Truck segment, the F150 is important because it needs to catch up to the competition - but there is NO technology out there not already exploited by the competition - so Ford has no space to turn the market on tis ear. They will try - they will have the first diesel and the TwinForce V6 .. they will have a lot of thoughtful details like they did in the Super Duty, and they will further perfect the notion of what a truck is to be ... but there is simply no space available for them to run away from the competition. The F150 will be revlutionary for Ford - but not for the Segment. Not even the almighty Toyota or GM managed that .. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 (edited) You don't know that. Complacency is terrible for business. And nobody 'reaching for the stars' has ever grabbed one either. See comment on other page about being satisfied with simple, easy, comfortable answers. --- There is a difference between pragmatism and complacency. Pragmatism says, "What can we do right now with the tools that we have? What should we do?" Complacency says, "What we have is fine." Now where an opportunity exists to 'seize the day' (Class 4 pickup truck), pragmatism suggests that you do that. Pragmatism also prevents you from assuming that such a beast will 'change' the 'game.' Such catch phrases are suitable only for analysts and people who have no day-to-day responsibilities in the company. The F-450 pickup truck has not upset the balance in the heavy duty truck segment, it has merely reinforced Ford's position there. Similarly, the arrival of GM's Duramax engines really didn't shift matters, despite their substantial improvement over the previous GM diesel engines. --- At any given moment, the world before you is finite, limited, your responsibility is to make the most of the situation you have, not fool yourself into believing that the limitations you face aren't real and need not be taken into account. Edited October 5, 2007 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomaro Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 They have gotten it right for over 30 years. At least "righter" than anyone else. Trust in them to deliver the best, they always have when it comes to F series. 500K units a years speaks volumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 They have gotten it right for over 30 years. At least "righter" than anyone else. Trust in them to deliver the best, they always have when it comes to F series. 500K units a years speaks volumes. The Taurus showed how fast that can change. Then again, if the F-150 dropped to 400k a year you'd all probably just blame people for not buying them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted October 5, 2007 Author Share Posted October 5, 2007 The Taurus showed how fast that can change. Then again, if the F-150 dropped to 400k a year you'd all probably just blame people for not buying them. wow you are only a year younger than me and I feel I am talking to a 15 years old .. do you EVER listen, or just keep repeating your argument over and over again until everyone around you gives up, and lets you feel like you were right? Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 wow you are only a year younger than me and I feel I am talking to a 15 years old .. do you EVER listen, or just keep repeating your argument over and over again until everyone around you gives up, and lets you feel like you were right? Igor Why am I wrong just because some of you do not agree? When someone can logically prove me wrong I'll concede the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted October 5, 2007 Author Share Posted October 5, 2007 Why am I wrong just because some of you do not agree? When someone can logically prove me wrong I'll concede the point. no you are wrong because you keep arguing point with no counterpart. NONE of use are condoning any complacency from Ford - or at least in this case - we are NOT advocating that. The simple oint people tried to make was that 1) the Full size truck segment is extremely competitive so it is hard to come up with something "revolutionary" 2) the F150 is darn near top of that segment, so it is hard to come up with something that would revolutionize the F150 3) that this is by no means complacency, but simple reality of market - good competition pushes the market as far as it can go ... and then leaves space only for gradual improvements over time ... that is where Ford is with the F150.. now with say Ranger, Taurus, Escape, Focus, Edge - YES - Ford has a LOT of space to revolutionize their entry, there is not much space, but there is SOME space in all of those segment to also revolutionize or significantly move-forward the segment itself. But with mid-size segment, and Full-size trucks, the segment is mature and highly competitive .. and there is simply very little space for "revolutionary" changes. Still - any new vehicle released by Ford or anyone else HAS TO move the bar a LITTLE and become "class leading" - that is the name of the game - Fusion and Aura did not, and you have seen how the Fusion has gotten left behind, and you will see the same with the Aura and the Malibu. Both Ford and GM will have to invest more than say Honda into their mid-cycle enhancements, because instead of just minor changes to keep the product fresh, they will have to implement major changes to catch up to the competition. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 The Taurus showed how fast that can change. The Taurus entered a remarkably flabby segment (midsize cars) that was populated by the GM 'A' bodies and that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 The Taurus entered a remarkably flabby segment (midsize cars) that was populated by the GM 'A' bodies and that's about it. I was talking about the botched redesign and it's fall. People probably assumed Ford couldn't screw that up either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I was talking about the botched redesign and it's fall. People probably assumed Ford couldn't screw that up either. Ford has a track record of delivering customer-focused trucks. Of course that doesn't prove that Ford 'can't' screw up. In the same way as it doesn't prove that a black hole couldn't materialize over Los Angeles tomorrow morning and swallow half of California. However, when one studies what was done with the '96 Taurus, vs. the '86, the difference in approach is staggering. What was done right on the '86 wasn't done right on the '96. OTOH, Ford's truck team has pretty consistently done what's 'right' with the F-Series. This suggests that sound practices are in place at Ford, and that we can expect solid output from them, even though (of course) it's far from assured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Ford has a track record of delivering customer-focused trucks. Of course that doesn't prove that Ford 'can't' screw up. In the same way as it doesn't prove that a black hole couldn't materialize over Los Angeles tomorrow morning and swallow half of California. However, when one studies what was done with the '96 Taurus, vs. the '86, the difference in approach is staggering. What was done right on the '86 wasn't done right on the '96. OTOH, Ford's truck team has pretty consistently done what's 'right' with the F-Series. This suggests that sound practices are in place at Ford, and that we can expect solid output from them, even though (of course) it's far from assured. seems the ONLY focus group/ clinic I have had confidence in IS /WAS the F-150....most of the rest should be drawn and quartered......we can only wish Fords car dept could be as "FOCUS'ed" ...ahem, as their truck bretheren..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenCaylor Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I'm wondering how much effort Ford has put into reducing the 09 F-150 weight? You figure with a 6" gain in the crew cab, it might be even heavier than the current model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I'm wondering how much effort Ford has put into reducing the 09 F-150 weight? You figure with a 6" gain in the crew cab, it might be even heavier than the current model. I don't know if there is such a thing as the Mythical lightweight pickup truck, doubt if you will ever see an Aluminum framed vehicle.....I would have to think strong boxed frames ( unlike some flimsy posers ) are a necessary evil of a vehicle with towing and payload parameters.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I'm wondering how much effort Ford has put into reducing the 09 F-150 weight? You figure with a 6" gain in the crew cab, it might be even heavier than the current model. What do you mean "might"? It will get heavier, but at least there will be an F100 available soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 except for tundra .. we have not seen the last of that tuck yet - unfortunately .. with addition of more mid-grade models .. the Truck will continue to gain momentum .. I predict it will chip away market share until evens out Dodge. Unfortunately, Ford with the oldest truck will probably have the hardest time not losing share to Toyota. Igor Isn't the Ram the oldest truck --- last completely redone for the 03 model year, while the F-150 was redone for the 04 model year, unless you're taking into consideration the Ram has had a facelift recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 But it's the $6-7K rebates on the Ram which is making them move...really nothing else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 My gosh I hope they don't release it looking like the Super Duty. The SD is one of he ugliest trucks ever devised -- way too over the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 The Taurus entered a remarkably flabby segment (midsize cars) that was populated by the GM 'A' bodies and that's about it. Semi-true. The Chev. Celebrity (A-body) was the #1 selling car in 1986. But the Accord had a powerful presence in the market by the late '80s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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