matthewq4b Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 (edited) The Five Hundred/Taurus certainly could have been done better. However, as a shared chassis, the costs associated with keeping them up to date will undoubtedly be lower than trying to keep the Panthers modern. Heck, Ford has already showen they can't keep them modern. And yes, I'm aware of all the "under-the-skin" changes the Panthers have gone through, but frankly, RETAIL customers (you know, the ones you actually make money from) don't give a crap about what's underneath the skin. They want a modern-looking car with a modern interior. The Taurus, while rather bland, is at least modern. The opportunities Ford has to make money with the Panthers is dwindling rapidly. With all of the changes that would be necessary to thoroughly bring it up-to-date with competitors, those huge profit margins it currently enjoys (which no one has offered any proof recently by the way) will go down the tubes. I'm pulling for the resurgence of a RWD Ford sedan too, but I'm pretty certain that it won't be a Panther. As for the taxi fleets.....I'm sure several of them are former patrol cars, but are there enough retired patrol cars out there to satisfy the needs of the taxi industry? I doubt it. Plenty of them are bought new. A sheet metal update will increase sales. Think what wqould have happend if Ford had stuffed 427 Sheet metal on the panthers 4 years ago and done the TC like the Conti show car. Sales would be at or better than the LX cars. The market is there for a full size RWD car. Just not for cars sporting 10 and 17 year old stlying and sheet metal. The money spent on the D3 cars was pretty much wasted. And I would bet that pair are still in the red and not showing a profit. No having paid for their initial and later redesigns Aslo latest info with one shift at STAP and combined production with the TC put avaerage profits per unit at about 12K Their sales have a long way to sink befor these cars become unprofitable. They have more than paid for and earned a comprehensive Update. Matthew Edited October 24, 2007 by matthewq4b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 A sheet metal update will increase sales. Think what wqould have happend if Ford had stuffed 427 Sheet metal on the panthers 4 years ago and done the TC like the Conti show car. Sales would be at or better than the LX cars. The market is there for a full size RWD car. Just not for cars sporting 10 and 17 year old stlying and sheet metal. The money spent on the D3 cars was pretty much wasted. And I would bet that pair are still in the red and not showing a profit. No having paid for their initial and later redesigns Aslo latest info with one shift at STAP and combined production with the TC put avaerage profits per unit at about 12K Their sales have a long way to sink befor these cars become unprofitable. They have more than paid for and earned a comprehensive Update. Matthew At the rate Panther sales are declining, it won't take long for those sales to be next to nothing. I'm sure D3 hasn't seen a profit yet too, but it probably will if they can continue to sell a combined 150K or so units a year. I seriously doubt new sheet metal alone would cure the Panther's woes either. Bending the 427's proportions to fit the current Panther body would likely have ended up with a disastrous mashup of shapes and proportions. It would really require an entirely new body to sit on that frame. And what changes would be needed to the frame to make it fit a modern body with shorter overhangs? And let's not forget the interior and powertrains. After all of these changes, wouldn't it almost be better to start from scratch? The concept of the Taurus and Crown Victoria are both sound. A large FWD/AWD sedan with a cavernous interior and great safety? Great! A reliable fullsize RWD V8-powered sedan? Awesome! The execution and follow-up is where they are both seriously lacking though. They idea of both vehicles could eventually be a lethal 1-2 punch, but right now....Meeeh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SysEng Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 They have more than paid for and earned a comprehensive Update.Matthew IMNSHO, the reason for an update is too reduce cost of production. :huh: Looking at my '07, from a customer perspective, I have no issues with the car. A fully loaded GM-LS is an incredible package. You'd be hard put to name any item that this car does not have. I even had one lady mention that she was uncomfortable just waiting alone in the car...'cuz it was tooo luxurious ... and this one knew Lexus/ MB/ etc... :shades: Talk about feeling outclassed :lol: Looking at the car from Fords point of view, they really can't complain. They still make more profit off it than the rest of the company combined. But, those who say the car should have a bottom up redo are quite correct. And the reason is that the car has been modded so many times, that it exhibits cost inefficiencies in its overall construction. And if they're obvious to a syseng who isn't an SAEng type, I imagine the real thing doesn't need me to explain . And the Board of Directors type who need profitability explained to them should be fired! So, yes a complete refresh with an eye to building up feature and content with serious integration work to reduce overall cost is pretty much whats needed. They need to look closely at input costs ( e.g. aluminum costs $1.30/lb and iron/steel costs 15/25cents/lb... just the material input to the 50lb heads on a 4.6 mod costs more than the 300lb iron block ) and take advantage of economy of scale by sharing major components with other BOF vehicles ( primarily trucks ). In this regard, my lobbying for the 4V4.6 and 6R80 tranny make tremendous $$$ sense when you look at the cost savings of shared components across several million units of production! As for styling... if they ever hire someone who can :rolleyes:... OTOH, maybe if they farm it out to Pininfarina ... like they did with the Mustang they just might get some decent work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 (edited) At the rate Panther sales are declining, it won't take long for those sales to be next to nothing. I'm sure D3 hasn't seen a profit yet too, but it probably will if they can continue to sell a combined 150K or so units a year. I seriously doubt new sheet metal alone would cure the Panther's woes either. Bending the 427's proportions to fit the current Panther body would likely have ended up with a disastrous mashup of shapes and proportions. It would really require an entirely new body to sit on that frame. And what changes would be needed to the frame to make it fit a modern body with shorter overhangs? And let's not forget the interior and powertrains. After all of these changes, wouldn't it almost be better to start from scratch? The concept of the Taurus and Crown Victoria are both sound. A large FWD/AWD sedan with a cavernous interior and great safety? Great! A reliable fullsize RWD V8-powered sedan? Awesome! The execution and follow-up is where they are both seriously lacking though. They idea of both vehicles could eventually be a lethal 1-2 punch, but right now....Meeeh. The panther and the 427 shared all the same hard points. All the gas engines Ford currently makes will go in the pnahter even the V10 . The platfrom was orginally designed to handle the 7.5L( 460) 385 series V8 What else is wrong withthe panthers? since you seem to think it is unslavagble lets hear why! The front supenson is a sub assy so the geometry design or what ever can be changed with no chages to the rest of the chassis. The shorter over hangs are easily acompplished. The front end already has over 30" clearance from the front of the engine to the front of the bumper. There are no suspension or steering parts in this area either to tend with, hell there is a full foot of clearance from the back of the front bumber rebar to the front of the condensor rad. The lost crash protection would be easly recovered with an intrgal front sub clip al F150 and every other car on the road. The panthers curretly have no structual sheet metal ahead of the fire wall. All the crash protection is absobed solely by the frame. Also the Panthers have no more front over hang than a lot of the FWD's on the market better check the Front over hang on the Fusion. The ass end of the chassis needs complety over hauled so your startng from stratch there any way regradless of what you do. And loosing that over hang is not nessarly s good thing either given the use these cars see. No car currently on the market can swallow the trunk loads the Panthers can. You have trashed the Panthers reapetedly. With no justification so now is the time to put up. Matthew Edited October 24, 2007 by matthewq4b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 ...The front end already has over 30" clearance from the front of the engine to the front of the bumper... Speaking of front end clearance...I like having a car with actual ground clearance. Not hearing that horrid scraping sound when I pull away from a curb without hearing that horrid curb scrape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Speaking of front end clearance...I like having a car with actual ground clearance. Not hearing that horrid scraping sound when I pull away from a curb without hearing that horrid curb scrape. Don't run your car aground on curbs then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 The panther and the 427 shared all the same hard points. All the gas engines Ford currently makes will go in the pnahter even the V10 . The platfrom was orginally designed to handle the 7.5L( 460) 385 series V8 What else is wrong withthe panthers? since you seem to think it is unslavagble lets hear why! The front supenson is a sub assy so the geometry design or what ever can be changed with no chages to the rest of the chassis. The shorter over hangs are easily acompplished. The front end already has over 30" clearance from the front of the engine to the front of the bumper. There are no suspension or steering parts in this area either to tend with, hell there is a full foot of clearance from the back of the front bumber rebar to the front of the condensor rad. The lost crash protection would be easly recovered with an intrgal front sub clip al F150 and every other car on the road. The panthers curretly have no structual sheet metal ahead of the fire wall. All the crash protection is absobed solely by the frame. Also the Panthers have no more front over hang than a lot of the FWD's on the market better check the Front over hang on the Fusion. The ass end of the chassis needs complety over hauled so your startng from stratch there any way regradless of what you do. And loosing that over hang is not nessarly s good thing either given the use these cars see. No car currently on the market can swallow the trunk loads the Panthers can. You have trashed the Panthers reapetedly. With no justification so now is the time to put up. Matthew Umm...the 427 show car was based on a stretched DEW98 platform. It shared absolutely NOTHING with the Panthers, including its hard points. Have you SEEN a Panther? How can you possibly DEFEND them? The interior is freaking trash. The shape of the greenhouse is trash. The overhangs are trash (despite not being long in measurement, the bland soap bar shape of the fenders make them MUCH more pronounced). The powertrains are trash. And worst of all, the name is freaking horrible. Crown Victoria?? Sounds like something you would buy on a car lot in Great Britain. The other Panther names aren't exactly "hip" either. To fix all of that trash, you'd be better off starting from scratch. Any vehicle that holds even a RESEMBLENCE to the current Panthers will immediately be labeled a car for blue hairs and taxi services. It's time to lay the Panthers to rest. They served Ford well, very well, perhaps better than most of the cars it has ever produced, but really, isn't it time to move on? Even Volkswagen eventually replaced the Bug. It seems Ford is more likely agreeing with my stance, as Huntsman is more than likely a go for North America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Don't run your car aground on curbs then? Um...no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxman100 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Based upon the genius thought process of Ford management regarding "large" vehicles and the Ford Passat/Taurus II, I'm sure the next miracle super-duper sedan will be just as underwhelming. The fact a 2008 looks just like a 1998 yet still sells as much as it does should tell you something - a lot of people still like the basic package, so why replace it with yet another inferior product? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 but really, isn't it time to move on? Even Volkswagen eventually replaced the Bug. Well, it is said that when the last B-2 Spirit is flown to the USAF Museum for display, the crew will get picked up by a B-52. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Well, it is said that when the last B-2 Spirit is flown to the USAF Museum for display, the crew will get picked up by a B-52. Very very doubtful....good analogy, but doubtful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Based upon the genius thought process of Ford management regarding "large" vehicles and the Ford Passat/Taurus II, I'm sure the next miracle super-duper sedan will be just as underwhelming. The fact a 2008 looks just like a 1998 yet still sells as much as it does should tell you something - a lot of people still like the basic package, so why replace it with yet another inferior product? I have read more than one review that makes the Taurus/Five Hundred/Sable/Montego and Passat comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I have read more than one review that makes the Taurus/Five Hundred/Sable/Montego and Passat comparison. I've read more than a few things that make the panther dinosaur comparison, whats your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 The fact a 2008 looks just like a 1998 yet still sells as much as it does should tell you something - a lot of people still like the basic package, so why replace it with yet another inferior product? Fleets love them. I'll admit that. Overall sales of Panthers have been on the decline for years now though. The Panther platform was great. It did a lot for Ford over the years. But it's time to move on, that's all I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Umm...the 427 show car was based on a stretched DEW98 platform. It shared absolutely NOTHING with the Panthers, including its hard points. better have a closer lookat the 427. Even though the car was based of the DEW the hard points in the body proportionatly landed in the same spot as the Panther. And that is rather moot any way As all but one of mounting points on the BOF can be relocated with nothign more than welding the brackets on in different spots. Have you SEEN a Panther? Uh I own one. I have proboly owned more panthers than you have had cars. There is nothignyou can tell me about a Panther. How can you possibly DEFEND them? See above. Differance is i have actually onwed them and have had several as company cars. What about you ? The interior is freaking trash. The shape of the greenhouse is trash. The overhangs are trash (despite not being long in measurement, the bland soap bar shape of the fenders make them MUCH more pronounced). The powertrains are trash. And worst of all, the name is freaking horrible. Crown Victoria?? Sounds like something you would buy on a car lot in Great Britain. The other Panther names aren't exactly "hip" either. To fix all of that trash, you'd be better off starting from scratch. Any vehicle that holds even a RESEMBLENCE to the current Panthers will immediately be labeled a car for blue hairs and taxi services. It's time to lay the Panthers to rest. They served Ford well, very well, perhaps better than most of the cars it has ever produced, but really, isn't it time to move on? Even Volkswagen eventually replaced the Bug. So basically you issue is with the current bodies and interiors . Well hello Mr Rogers what the Hell do you think we have been saying about the panthers for the last 10 years that sheet metal needs to go. Did you miss that memo ? The First gen units were just as horrriblly out dated at the time of replacement perhaps even worse a body and interior desighned inthe Disco era still around in the 1990's designed and era that had seen a massive fundamental shift in automotive design and styling A much bigger change than we have seen since 1992 to current. A totaly different body and interior was sat on the exact same Chassis and floor pan. You better spend some time in the pre 92 units and then the later ones. It is hard to belive the cars share anything let alone the whole chassis and floor pans. And if you think that a ground up new unit will be cheaper than a ground up comprehensive update of the Panthers your smoking crack. And updated apnther can roll down a slightly modified current assembly line. A ground up new car is goingto require a near brand new line. Let alone the engineering in designing it. It seems Ford is more likely agreeing with my stance, as Huntsman is more than likely a go for North America. Likly yes it will be. But no one has said what it is going to replace. It might just as likly replace the Taurus twins and supply some coponants to a upgraded Panther chassis. By far the most economical option. Read the second last post in the Ford abandons export plans for new Falcon topic No one knows for sure will happen. The panther as is is dead. But their is still value and life in the basic chassis. The cost of replcement for a gorund up unit is going to be several times more expensive and have no more guarantes of more sales than an updated Panther platfrom. What is gaurenteed is that it will cost way more and deliver a product no better. Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 (edited) No reputable taxi service is buying former-police cruisers for service. Are YOU kidding ME? They don't want the headaches. The vast majority of ex-police cruisers are sent to auction where used car dealers and Panther Mafia-types snatch them up at super-discount rates. Ahem... How Cabbies get 300K miles from the Ford CVPI Edited October 25, 2007 by Armada Master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Ahem... How Cabbies get 300K miles from the Ford CVPI Can someone explain to me why the fuck are taxis using Police Inspectors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Can someone explain to me why the fuck are taxis using Police Inspectors? They are used (cheap) Beefed up suspension Beefed up brakes HD alternator Trans cooler PS cooler Super heavy duty vinyl seats Primarily #1 ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I have no idea why a taxi company would use police inspectors. Might be a security issue. Now, For their use of police interceptors theoldwizard hit it on the head. Ford also has a taxi version of the CV, both in standard and LWB versions. The equipment is not that much different from the inteceptor. Just ask a police inspector! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 (edited) Ahem... How Cabbies get 300K miles from the Ford CVPI Same goes for Falcon Cabs downunder except we do it with 6 cylinders. Edited October 25, 2007 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Read the second last post in the Ford abandons export plans for new Falcon topic No one knows for sure will happen. Nice twisting of facts....if you really read the damn article you would have seen that it was talking about exports to the Middle East, not to mention that the Falcon redo its getting next year wasn't intented for North America anyways, thats not supposed to happen till 2011-12 when the new Huntsman platform comes along. The panther as is is dead. But their is still value and life in the basic chassis. The cost of replcement for a gorund up unit is going to be several times more expensive and have no more guarantes of more sales than an updated Panther platfrom. What is gaurenteed is that it will cost way more and deliver a product no better. The problem is that even though your adding all these upgrades your still stuck using a design thats over 30 years old. Then that screws up the profitability that the car has now since all the development and tooling have been long paid for. So your damned if you do and damned if you don't.....I'd rather see Ford spend the money on nothing short of an all new RWD platform will change the image of what people think of the Crown Vic. Even changing the current name of the CV on a updated panther platform won't help it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 The problem is that even though your adding all these upgrades your still stuck using a design thats over 30 years old. Then that screws up the profitability that the car has now since all the development and tooling have been long paid for. So your damned if you do and damned if you don't.....I'd rather see Ford spend the money on nothing short of an all new RWD platform will change the image of what people think of the Crown Vic. Even changing the current name of the CV on a updated panther platform won't help it.... Perfect summation of my thoughts. No matter what they do to Panther, it will still have a stigma in the public eye. New body? New name? New interior? New engines? It won't matter. As soon as anybody realizes that the platform has roots from over 3 decades ago, they'll turn and run. The media certainly wouldn't be kind to it either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I've read more than a few things that make the panther dinosaur comparison, whats your point? My God your sensitive. My point? My point is why design a brand new car that looks like a mid-90s Passat? And I am sure you will come up with some rubbish reason to try to defend Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Perfect summation of my thoughts. No matter what they do to Panther, it will still have a stigma in the public eye. New body? New name? New interior? New engines? It won't matter. As soon as anybody realizes that the platform has roots from over 3 decades ago, they'll turn and run. The media certainly wouldn't be kind to it either. You and silvrst are on the right wavelength. These same conversations have been going on for quite some time and the conclusions repeatedly are the ones you mentioned. The cost of "fixing" the Panther probably would be within 20-40% or so of a new platform, and you would still be left with a BOF architecture with dated proportions. Ford has already signaled what is going to happen. It's not so much where the car is today, but what is required in the future and the low benefit for any investment in this ancient product. For instance, I understand there was an opportunity to install the 3v and 6 speed when the TC moved to St. Thomas. It wasn't going to be cheap as there is quite a lot of tearup; the financial benefit didn't justify it. The Panther has some avid fans (most on this board I think). But to a lot of customers, it poisons the showroom. It tells them American autos are old, large, and fuel inefficient. And it will be difficult to move away from this image as long as these products remain. As I mentioned previously, time to hold a respectful memorial service and put them to sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 My point is why design a brand new car that looks like a mid-90s Passat? And I am sure you will come up with some rubbish reason to try to defend Ford. Um ever consider the fact that the styling of the green house was done in the early 2000's? The reason it wasn't changed this year is that it was just a mid-cycle refresh. The Passat that everyone is claming to be an mid-90's car is actually a 1998 design that has the similar greenhouse as the 500/Taurus. Its pretty bad when people have to bitch about a cars greenhouse to argue their points... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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