Deanh Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Why would F1 ban AWD? If it offered no advantage to offset the additional weight, expense, and complexity, why would FIA ban it? It would ban itself (for instance, we don't see any F1 cars circling the tracks with farm animals attached to the airbox--why? because there's no advantage, ergo, the FIA rulebook doesn't explicitly prevent you from attaching a sheep to your car). F1's move to ban establishes that in 'money [almost] no object' scenarios, AWD offers a performance advantage. surprized Audi gets away with it in Le Mans..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 a pet camel called Cuddles....... LMAO..... BTW, I might be hitting you up soon for a stang. That is if Crevier can't get their shite together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Getrag is building a DCT manual that can take 350lb ft of torque. Easily within the TF 3.5L parameters. http://getrag.com/en/234 HAhahahaha. How many times does TheOldWizard has to spell it for you guys? PowerShift won't show up on any other car till MY2012. If you haven't been paying attention Rick, PowerShift = DCT. DCT no show up on any car till 2011. Chew on the 350lb ft Getrag transmission above. Your turn to chew on my Objection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 LMAO..... BTW, I might be hitting you up soon for a stang. That is if Crevier can't get their shite together. lemme know...factory order?...and funny, crevier calls me for their fords....LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 HAhahahaha. How many times does TheOldWizard has to spell it for you guys? PowerShift won't show up on any other car till MY2012. If you haven't been paying attention Rick, PowerShift = DCT. DCT no show up on any car till 2011. Your turn to chew on my Objection. mmmmmmmmmm, tastes like Turkey....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Why would F1 ban AWD? If it offered no advantage to offset the additional weight, expense, and complexity, why would FIA ban it? It would ban itself (for instance, we don't see any F1 cars circling the tracks with farm animals attached to the airbox--why? because there's no advantage, ergo, the FIA rulebook doesn't explicitly prevent you from attaching a sheep to your car). F1's move to ban establishes that in 'money [almost] no object' scenarios, AWD offers a performance advantage. Formula 1 banned ABS this year, your point is moot, yes I never claimed AWD wasn't offering a performance advantage, however, till we have proof that the AWD in the MKS will be giving the rear wheels the piority most of the time, it's worthless. Ford's AWD system in every application so far is just a slip detector. An amazing one at that, but a slip detector nonetheless. It can't outdo RWD. Add to that, AWD adds additional unnecessary weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 lemme know...factory order?...and funny, crevier calls me for their fords....LOL! Yeah probably so. I'm still trying to talk the other half into alowing a 2 door around. These BMW dealers here are a PITA. I started out at Irvine BMW, and man were they absurd to deal with. Now Crevier is starting to kinda rub me the wrong way (they've changed delivery dates on me 3 times in 2 days). My last resort is the one on PCH in Newport Beach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Formula 1 banned ABS this year, your point is moot, yes I never claimed AWD wasn't offering a performance advantage, however, till we have proof that the AWD in the MKS will be giving the rear wheels the piority most of the time, it's worthless. Ford's AWD system in every application so far is just a slip detector. An amazing one at that, but a slip detector nonetheless. It can't outdo RWD. Add to that, AWD adds additional unnecessary weight. they don't have ABS...they have deleted TRACTION CONTROL, and Hamilton has professed to being attracted to the same sex....as for wieght...adding it to a FWD architecture adds MAYBE 2-300lbs ..thats it...basically just a driveshaft and diff......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 How many times does TheOldWizard has to spell it for you guys? PowerShift won't show up on any other car till MY2012. Uh, and his information is from.......? Ford has said, in print, multiple times, that a DI TT version of the 3.5L engine will be on the market less than a year after the launch of the MY 2009 MKS. That makes it MY 2010. Now, the scenario is such: either the rated torque output will be below the maximum for the 6F (280lb ft) or some other transmission will be used. Regardless of what the Old Wizard claims to know, what Ford has said in print argues that either an Aisin unit (capable of handling up to 330lb ft of torque) will be used, or a Getrag DCT transmission (capable of handling up to 350lb ft of torque) will be used. The final output numbers of the DI TT will dictate which transmission is used. My suspicion is that the Aisin unit will end up getting the nod, as a 30% torque boost to the 3.5 yields 325lb ft of torque. Anything higher than that and regardless of what the Old Wizard says, Ford will be using the Getrag unit. Capiche? See, what you've done is reason from your prejudices to arrive at a conclusion that fits your worldview. OTOH, you could take what Ford has said in print, and reason what scenarios are likely to ensue. You can either believe what TOW said, or you can believe what Ford's legal department approved Ford saying in print and in public dozens of times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Yeah probably so. I'm still trying to talk the other half into alowing a 2 door around. These BMW dealers here are a PITA. I started out at Irvine BMW, and man were they absurd to deal with. Now Crevier is starting to kinda rub me the wrong way (they've changed delivery dates on me 3 times in 2 days). My last resort is the one on PCH in Newport Beach. Look out for a Personal e-mail.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 (edited) Ford's AWD system in every application so far is just a slip detector. An amazing one at that, but a slip detector nonetheless. It can't outdo RWD. You're incredibly silly. ALL AWD SYSTEMS ARE SLIP DETECTORS. Including the ones that FIA banned. See, what happens, is that when Ford's system detects even a minuscule amount of slip (IIRC, about 1/7th of a rotation), power is transferred to other wheels. Ford's system also allows up to a 100% transfer to the rear axle (most AWD systems permit, at most, a 90/10 shift away from the slipping axle). What this means in practical terms, is that heavy acceleration ALWAYS engages the rear axle, and that cornering at speed ALWAYS engages the rear axle. In other words, the system is FWD only when the DRIVE WHEELS DO NOT MATTER (e.g. steady speed/moderate acceleration in a straight line, routine driving). I really am sorry that you're so silly. Edited December 6, 2007 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Formula 1 banned ABS this year, your point is moot, yes I never claimed AWD wasn't offering a performance advantage, however, till we have proof that the AWD in the MKS will be giving the rear wheels the piority most of the time, it's worthless. Ford's AWD system in every application so far is just a slip detector. An amazing one at that, but a slip detector nonetheless. It can't outdo RWD. Add to that, AWD adds additional unnecessary weight. AWD systems have gotten to the point whereas they aren't adding that much weight to overall mass of newer vehicles. Until we have proof.......Well why are you commenting on how you 'think' the Genesis will perform. Isn't that the same thing? And outdo RWD in what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 (edited) Feel free to prove me otherwise. LincolnFan, you're a troll and a flamer. You post heresay and BS. We're supposed to prove your unvalidated opinions as false. First, YOU need to PROVE your assertions.........and you haven't. Maybe this will help you: http://www.zf.com 6-speed automatic transmissions for cars The 6-speed automatic transmission for FWD, RWD and 4WD vehicles is truly state-of-the-art, and can accommodate power ratings of up to 750 Nm. Close ratio steps make the transmission more responsive to the torque characteristics of the engine. The electronic transmission control unit can be networked via a CAN bus to the engine control unit, and to dynamic, brake and stabilization systems employed for dynamic drive management tasks. Edited December 6, 2007 by timmm55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Uh, and his information is from.......? A retired worker who has no co-workers? That's very sad. Give the man some credit, he worked his ass off day and night for years, so you could drive your car without problems every two days. Ford has said, in print, multiple times, that a DI TT version of the 3.5L engine will be on the market less than a year after the launch of the MY 2009 MKS. When will the twisting of my words STOP? I never said the TF isn't coming. All what I said is, the DCT isn't coming because I chose to believe TOW who happens to be a retired engineer who used to work for Ford. That makes it MY 2010. Now, the scenario is such: either the rated torque output will be below the maximum for the 6F (280lb ft) or some other transmission will be used. Regardless of what the Old Wizard claims to know, what Ford has said in print argues that either an Aisin unit (capable of handling up to 330lb ft of torque) will be used, or a Getrag DCT transmission (capable of handling up to 350lb ft of torque) will be used. The final output numbers of the DI TT will dictate which transmission is used. My suspicion is that the Aisin unit will end up getting the nod, as a 30% torque boost to the 3.5 yields 325lb ft of torque. Anything higher than that and regardless of what the Old Wizard says, Ford will be using the Getrag unit. Capiche? See, therein lies the problem. The DCT isn't showing up before 2012MY, if you have anything that can proof otherwise (please don't show evidence that will shoot you in the foot again) then show it. Is there a link to this Aisin unit you speak of? The MS6 transmission perhaps? See, what you've done is reason from your prejudices to arrive at a conclusion that fits your worldview. OTOH, you could take what Ford has said in print, and reason what scenarios are likely to ensue. You can either believe what TOW said, or you can believe what Ford's legal department approved Ford saying in print and in public dozens of times. Believe Ford's legal department? Isn't that the department at one time changed their LM plans almost on a weekly basis? Accept it, Ford changes it's future plans a lot, they said they had no plans for the MKR, and guess what? It just might show up. Ford's PR is hardly that reliable of a source when it comes to "speaking of the future". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 A retired worker who has no co-workers? That's very sad. Give the man some credit, he worked his ass off day and night for years, so you could drive your car without problems every two days.When will the twisting of my words STOP? I never said the TF isn't coming. All what I said is, the DCT isn't coming because I chose to believe TOW who happens to be a retired engineer who used to work for Ford. See, therein lies the problem. The DCT isn't showing up before 2012MY, if you have anything that can proof otherwise (please don't show evidence that will shoot you in the foot again) then show it. Is there a link to this Aisin unit you speak of? The MS6 transmission perhaps? Believe Ford's legal department? Isn't that the department at one time changed their LM plans almost on a weekly basis? Accept it, Ford changes it's future plans a lot, they said they had no plans for the MKR, and guess what? It just might show up. Ford's PR is hardly that reliable of a source when it comes to "speaking of the future". I will give theOldWizard credit for the knowledge immediately within his grasp. Not for what he hears through the grapevine. For that reason I am not going to be dogmatic about when the DCT shows up. It might show up on the MKS, it might not. I am not going to limit my expectations based on the hearsay of a retired Ford employee. Furthermore, YOU find the link to the Aisin unit. If you want to call me a liar, you prove it. Finally, Ford's legal department does nothing whatsoever with respect to strategic planning. What they do is ensure that what Ford says publicly is reliable. Only Bill Ford has stepped outside that box to make statements that were later backed away from. Ford's PR material has been quite reliable over the last several years. What is said ahead of product launch is conservative and generally accurate. Regarding the MKR, the concept is certainly not going into production, and Ford exec comments about concepts like the MKR are almost always, "We have no plans at this time." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 I chose to believe ........... nuff said!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 You're incredibly silly. ALL AWD SYSTEMS ARE SLIP DETECTORS. Including the ones that FIA banned. See, what happens, is that when Ford's system detects even a minuscule amount of slip (IIRC, about 1/7th of a rotation), power is transferred to other wheels. Ford's system also allows up to a 100% transfer to the rear axle (most AWD systems permit, at most, a 90/10 shift away from the slipping axle). What this means in practical terms, is that heavy acceleration ALWAYS engages the rear axle, and that cornering at speed ALWAYS engages the rear axle. In other words, the system is FWD only when the DRIVE WHEELS DO NOT MATTER (e.g. steady speed/moderate acceleration in a straight line, routine driving). I really am sorry that you're so silly. Nope, have you checked Subaru's AWD systems? They can be locked at 50/50 distribution, as far as I know, that's not "slip detecting". AWD systems have gotten to the point whereas they aren't adding that much weight to overall mass of newer vehicles. Until we have proof.......Well why are you commenting on how you 'think' the Genesis will perform. Isn't that the same thing? And outdo RWD in what? The Ford system weights 200 pounds, that affects FE. I am sure you have noticed. This hasn't been about the Genesis for quite some time. This topic is about the MKS if I am not mistaken? Hyundai labelled the Genesis as a sport sedan, they're also making a coupe version of it. But that's as far as I know about how the Genesis will drive. LincolnFan, you're a troll and a flamer. You post heresay and BS. We're supposed to prove your unvalidated opinions as false. First, YOU need to PROVE your assertions.........and you haven't. Maybe this will help you: http://www.zf.com 6-speed automatic transmissions for cars The 6-speed automatic transmission for FWD, RWD and 4WD vehicles is truly state-of-the-art, and can accommodate power ratings of up to 750 Nm. Close ratio steps make the transmission more responsive to the torque characteristics of the engine. The electronic transmission control unit can be networked via a CAN bus to the engine control unit, and to dynamic, brake and stabilization systems employed for dynamic drive management tasks. Fantastic, Fabulous my man. Astonishing. Truly. How did I miss that? Oh wait... Please go back and check my post, there's a reason why Rick didn't further persue that matter, he even stopped mentioning it after the Turkey-flavored objection he swallowed, maybe you should have a taste as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 (edited) Nope, have you checked Subaru's AWD systems? They can be locked at 50/50 distribution, as far as I know, that's not "slip detecting". That effectively turns the AWD unit into a 4x4 unit. The difference between AWD and 4x4, and the reason why those two terms exist, is because AWD is activated by wheelspin (be it a torsen system, a hydraulic system--Haldex, or the Ford/Borg Warner electromechanical system). By overriding the AWD's slip detection mechanisms, you're turning the system into a straight forward mechanical 4x4 system. A 4x4 system is manually engaged, and performs a fixed 50/50 torque split between front and rear axles. With Subaru's system, that's a 'check' on both counts. That you can turn a Subaru into a 4x4 doesn't mean that AWD systems are not activated by slip/spin. Subaru actually offers a combination AWD/4x4 unit. Edited December 6, 2007 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 (edited) Nope, have you checked Subaru's AWD systems? They can be locked at 50/50 distribution, as far as I know, that's not "slip detecting".The Ford system weights 200 pounds, that affects FE. I am sure you have noticed. This hasn't been about the Genesis for quite some time. This topic is about the MKS if I am not mistaken? Hyundai labelled the Genesis as a sport sedan, they're also making a coupe version of it. But that's as far as I know about how the Genesis will drive. Fantastic, Fabulous my man. Astonishing. Truly. How did I miss that? Oh wait... Please go back and check my post, there's a reason why Rick didn't further persue that matter, he even stopped mentioning it after the Turkey-flavored objection he swallowed, maybe you should have a taste as well? 200lbs is trivial as far as FE is concerned and a driveshaft and rear diff would actually hep weight distribution, FYI Subarus would have to have limited slip on either one or both ends...ever driven non Lim slip on dry pavement...BUNNYHOPS!......like i said Linc, i know you are passionate but you are being purely speculative...wait till the product hits the ground before fire Skuds.....and don't doubt Fords AWD prowess....they kicked Suburus a$$ in WRC.... Edited December 6, 2007 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 The Ford system weights 200 pounds, that affects FE. I am sure you have noticed. Actually, according to Ford reps, the greater impact that its AWD systems have on fuel economy comes from a different final drive ratio and parasitic losses, even when AWD is not engaged. 200lbs, while not trivial, is the approximate weight of one passenger in the US, or a tank of gas. It is not sufficient to account for the 15-20% difference in highway fuel economy observed on Ford's AWD models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 I will give theOldWizard credit for the knowledge immediately within his grasp. Not for what he hears through the grapevine. For that reason I am not going to be dogmatic about when the DCT shows up. It might show up on the MKS, it might not. I am not going to limit my expectations based on the hearsay of a retired Ford employee. Furthermore, YOU find the link to the Aisin unit. If you want to call me a liar, you prove it. Very well, you chose your fight. Blue II has mentioned that the DCTs will first show up on the Verve. The Verve will make appearence in the US in, what? 2010 as MY2011? Isn't that a year after the introduction of the "Lusted over by BOFers" MKS TF? I recall him saying the Verve will be the "first application". Quite a contradiction, now isn't it? http://www.aisin-aw.co.jp/en/02products/02at/01ff/index.html Well done, Rick. You got this one right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 they kicked Suburus a$$ in WRC.... Because the Focii was RWD based. So you see, with RWD you don't need the hassles of wasted power and parasitic losses. With good tires, RWD is a better choice anyday of the week. That's why Ford needs to get it's ass in gear and get the MKR ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Very well, you chose your fight. Blue II has mentioned that the DCTs will first show up on the Verve. The Verve will make appearence in the US in, what? 2010 as MY2011? Isn't that a year after the introduction of the "Lusted over by BOFers" MKS TF? I recall him saying the Verve will be the "first application". Quite a contradiction, now isn't it? http://www.aisin-aw.co.jp/en/02products/02at/01ff/index.html Well done, Rick. You got this one right. Linc...I need to know...what is your fixation on the DCT all about...is it THAt much the bees Knees, the Cats Pajamas, the Goats lipstick?........seems to me current tech is fine right now and too much complexity can lead to potential problems....so is there really a need, or just a desire?...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Very well, you chose your fight. Blue II has mentioned that the DCTs will first show up on the Verve. With all due respect, Blue II does not work for Ford, and as with igor, I discount the optimistic information he presents as well. Well done, Rick. You got this one right. I typically do. The ZF gaffe was based on mistaken recollection of the conversion of NM to lb-ft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted December 6, 2007 Author Share Posted December 6, 2007 Because the Focii was RWD based. So you see, with RWD you don't need the hassles of wasted power and parasitic losses. With good tires, RWD is a better choice anyday of the week. That's why Ford needs to get it's ass in gear and get the MKR ASAP. Yeah, RWD is always superior.....:rolleyes: Go find something useful to do instead of making yourself look like a complete idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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