Sporko Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 "Once again you do not determine my trade value I do! I don't get what I want, then I don't trade." One of the dumbest comments I've read in quite some time. Even a 10 year old selling baseball cards knows something is only worth what someone else will pay for it. And you refinanced your own car to avoid taking a loss on it? Brilliant financial move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 perfect for a customer that wants more than ACV ( actual cash value ) on a potential trade in, like I have said there is usually a 3-4k difference between a trade in value and reatil...which is what e-bay sellers are attempting to get...I say cudo's if they have the patience....course what happens if its listed for two months because buyers think the asking price is too high? Sometimes then people just bite the bullet and trade the vehicle in, take the hit, and appreciate the conveinience..... Have you ever heard of schill bidding! I have argued this before, but I'm not sure if it was with you! (Can't remember) It's still true though! and even without Schill bidding (which I would not list without doing) I would still get more than a Dealer would want to give me! I would list my auction with a reserve below my pay off and use E-snipe to bid my auction up to pay off and pocket the difference above my pay off. My car may not even sell in this market! I sold a 1970 Caddilac drop top just like boss hogs car and it sold for $4,800 and the buyer paid an additional $1,800 to ship it to Sweden! I'm sure a Canadian that has to pay more for the identical model in his country would be more than happy to give me KBB+ for my vehicle! Brand new Fords there sell for $4,000 on average higher than they do in the states! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 "Once again you do not determine my trade value I do! I don't get what I want, then I don't trade." One of the dumbest comments I've read in quite some time. Even a 10 year old selling baseball cards knows something is only worth what someone else will pay for it. And you refinanced your own car to avoid taking a loss on it? Brilliant financial move. no no no...the dealer forced the decision...he had no choice remember.....and he showed them dammit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) Have you ever heard of schill bidding! I have argued this before, but I'm not sure if it was with you! (Can't remember) It's still true though! and even without Schill bidding (which I would not list without doing) I would still get more than a Dealer would want to give me! I would list my auction with a reserve below my pay off and use E-snipe to bid my auction up to pay off and pocket the difference above my pay off. My car may not even sell in this market! I sold a 1970 Caddilac drop top just like boss hogs car and it sold for $4,800 and the buyer paid an additional $1,800 to ship it to Sweden! I'm sure a Canadian that has to pay more for the identical model in his country would be more than happy to give me KBB+ for my vehicle! Brand new Fords there sell for $4,000 on average higher than they do in the states! that is not part of the new car business...totally different beast...also sold a 69 Bug Convertible to someone in MN for $6800, quite a few years ago, and classic cars are in another world, look at Barret Jackson for instance...freaky! Now try and do the same with a car 2-3 years old...doesn't work too well.... Edited February 14, 2008 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) so, if you call 5 dealers and they pretty much all say the same thing you are still right no? Regardless, it IS your chioce if you trade a vehicle or not...you don't HAVE to do anything, the dealer didn't lose a sale and you didn't have to absorb negetive equity...so no one loses no one wins...sounds to me it just wasn't viable from both parties, happens all the time...a deal has to make sense from BOTH sides...NOT just one or it doesn't happen....also, just for your edification...we DO not set trade in values...the market does...just like addendums on halo cars, it is what the market will bear....but remember WE are the bad guys....funny thing is the market is set by the consumer......in your case it caused the negetive equity you so despise....his screwing you was just a reality check..... I was the consumer and also one in the market, I would not bear a loss and the did not get my car while losing the sale of another car. What I'm saying is just what you said, the market will only bear what the consumer/dealer agree to. What I'm saying is peoples "gulibility" (that's not a word but you get my point) decides what they market will bear. People need to wake up and realize that the can control the pricing if they use their heads. The more people there are like me, the less people will be taken. I've had people tell me before that a car loses 40% of it's value once leaving the lot, non sense unless you will agree to take 40% less than you paid for it initially! Believe me if you tried to sell me a car we would go round and round. And based on your position we wuold likely part ways with no sale! What makes you think that you are "Entitled" to pay less than KBB? Think about it and them know that, that is what makes me feel entitled to more than KBB! Edited February 14, 2008 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 that is not part of the new car business...totally different beast...also sold a 69 Bug Convertible to someone in MN for $6800, quite a few years ago, and classic cars are in another world, look at Barret Jackson for instance...freaky! Now try and do the same with a car 2-3 years old...doesn't work too well.... Your right but you ignored the most important part of that post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I was the consumer and also one in the market, I would not bear a loss and the did not get my car while losing the sale of another car. What I'm saying is just what you said, the market will only bear what the consumer/dealer agree to. What I'm saying is peoples "gulibility" (that's not a word but you get my point) decides what they market will bear. People need to wake up and realize that the can control the pricing if they use their heads. The more people there are like me, the less people will be taken. I've had people tell me before that a car loses 40% of it's value once leaving the lot, non sense unless you will agree to take 40% less than you paid for it initially! Believe me if you tried to sell me a car we would go round and round. And based on your position we wuold likely part ways with no sale! What makes you think that you are "Entitled" to pay less than KBB? Think about it and them know that, that is what makes me feel entitled to more than KBB! Reality check....YOUR deal wasn't viable...thats it...a dealer will NOT pass on a deal that makes sense...in other words yours didn't...case closed....again...it happens all the time...just becaus you didn't get your way in absolutely NO way determines that because the dealer could not RIP YOU OFF they passed.....40% depends on the car....some high liners are steeper than that.....and basically it takes me about 10 minutes to know if a deal is accomplishable or not...simple math...if it makes sense it does, if it doesn't it doesn't....going round and round I leave to green pees for practice, been doing this way too long to endure pointless battles if a deal cannot be accomplished to begin with......and the less than KBB....why would I pay more for a vehicle when i can go to an auction and pay 3 grand less? just like you walking away from a proposed deal, we do too....funny that isn't it? So, i'm glad you didn't just roll over for a taste of reality and re-financed your car....dealer has to regret that loss......dammit! another deal lost because we wouldn't step up and pay too much for a car.....man are we stupid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Your right but you ignored the most important part of that post! simplify it for me...little too convoluted.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I was the consumer and also one in the market, I would not bear a loss and the did not get my car while losing the sale of another car. What I'm saying is just what you said, the market will only bear what the consumer/dealer agree to. What I'm saying is peoples "gulibility" (that's not a word but you get my point) decides what they market will bear. People need to wake up and realize that the can control the pricing if they use their heads. The more people there are like me, the less people will be taken. I've had people tell me before that a car loses 40% of it's value once leaving the lot, non sense unless you will agree to take 40% less than you paid for it initially! Believe me if you tried to sell me a car we would go round and round. And based on your position we wuold likely part ways with no sale! What makes you think that you are "Entitled" to pay less than KBB? Think about it and them know that, that is what makes me feel entitled to more than KBB! so .....your thinking we shouldn't feel entitle to pay less than KBB, does that pertain to you paying less than sticker Mr Cake and Eat it too?.....wheres the realty check police? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) so .....your thinking we shouldn't feel entitle to pay less than KBB, does that pertain to you paying less than sticker Mr Cake and Eat it too?.....wheres the realty check police? I'm right here, and you are under arrest. I'm going to say it one last time we set the market. Because we (the consumer ) decide what it will bear. Your way of thinking is the common one that's how you have been getting away with it for so long. If you like to go to the auction and pay less than do so, you still lost the sale of a vehicle! Set your margines at an inflated fixed price and watch a volume loss. And I'll bet you blame Ford for not being able to sell vehicles! There is your reality check! P.S. I bet you think a $10,000 mark up on the ShelbyGT500 is also justified! Edited February 14, 2008 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 P.S. I bet you think a $10,000 mark up on the ShelbyGT500 is also justified! If there is some moron out there willing to pay it to have the latest and greatest toy out there it is.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I'm right here, and you are under arrest. I'm going to say it one last time we set the market. Because we (the consumer ) decide what it will bear. Your way of thinking is the common one that's how you have been getting away with it for so long. If you like to go to the auction and pay less than do so, you still lost the sale of a vehicle! Set your margines at an inflated fixed price and watch a volume loss. And I'll bet you blame Ford for not being able to sell vehicles! There is your reality check!P.S. I bet you think a $10,000 mark up on the ShelbyGT500 is also justified! see this is where we differ...I see both sides, ALWAYS have, if a deal makes sense thats it, no ifs whens and buts...you only see you own and bleat and scream and yell and call Dealers all sorts of names when you can't understand why you can't just walk in and get your way and for them to take a bad business decision.........I rest my case....you obviously set the market...thats the reason yo re-fied your own car...NOW THATS FUNNY!...you sure showed them...everybody take car buying lessons from Furious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I'm right here, and you are under arrest. I'm going to say it one last time we set the market. Because we (the consumer ) decide what it will bear. Your way of thinking is the common one that's how you have been getting away with it for so long. If you like to go to the auction and pay less than do so, you still lost the sale of a vehicle! Set your margines at an inflated fixed price and watch a volume loss. And I'll bet you blame Ford for not being able to sell vehicles! There is your reality check!P.S. I bet you think a $10,000 mark up on the ShelbyGT500 is also justified! and sorry, you DON"T set the market...you set your OWN budget......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 If there is some moron out there willing to pay it to have the latest and greatest toy out there it is.... I agree , but it is what it is, supply/ demand etc etc, that and the fact at Full window dealers get two a year with only approx 4 grand total markup per unit...whilst I don't agree with addendums I don't blame dealers for putting the markup on the cars that should be there to begin with, in my eyes there should be 10k in the MSRP and then customers would pay window and the dealers would be happier. Same kinda gos for hybrids right now, they are fetching 2k over at some dealers due to lack of availability!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 P.S. I bet you think a $10,000 mark up on the ShelbyGT500 is also justified![/indent] If people will pay it, it certainly is. So far, people have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 If people will pay it, it certainly is. So far, people have. but it gives people that can't probably afford it, will never buy one and re-fi their own "upside down" car something else to point fingers at the dealer about.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 but it gives people that can't probably afford it, will never buy one and re-fi their own "upside down" car something else to point fingers at the dealer about.... Who cares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) Who cares? my thoughts exactly....but in respect to Furious...he may/ maynot be one that can ever be satisfied with ANY interaction with a dealership....some are just that way..... Edited February 14, 2008 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 your mother would be proud... As a matter of fact, she is!! :happy feet: That's not what she tells the Navy guys when the Fleet's in town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) That's not what she tells the Navy guys when the Fleet's in town. So wrong...and yet a deserved LMAO!,,,,,,shades of "The Crying Game"....LOL! Edited February 14, 2008 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 That's a huge problem for Ford, just about every dealer around here is horrible, the salesmen don't even know basic things about the cars they are selling. Somehow Ford needs to weed out the bad dealers, on the bright side, a Ford dealer around here that was trying to sell Mustang GT's for 50k just went under.. throw us a bone...just a little....remember if a customer is looking at a specific they have researched EVERYTHING on just one vehicle and one vehicle only...say a Mustang, and then they ask what axle ratio it can come in...now realise the poor pimply new hire bastard that has to answer that question is also expected to be able to answer that same question on the F-150 ( engine AND transmission AND body style specific AND 2 AND 4 wheel drive ) the F250 ( engine and trans specific, engine AND transmission AND body style AND 2 AND 4 wheel drive ) thenthe same with the super-dutys ( engine, trans, body style, 2/ 4wd, single or dual rear wheel, payloads, complete or gcahssis and what wheelbase ) and you may just begin to understand that it is BEYOND a salesperson to be a walking Google....i used to be Mr walking Product knowledge...I gave up a LONG time ago...too many migranes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 (edited) and sorry, you DON"T set the market...you set your OWN budget......... I understood both sides of the arguement the whole time also, but it is counter productive for either of us to relent on this issue. You want the highest possible profit and I want the best possible trade and price. First let me say that I could well afford a Shelby for the price you ask, but their is a distinct difference between what I can afford and what I'm whilling to spend. (most don't even know a difference can exist) Yes the Shelby will sell for your price but in very little volume per store. Most dealers only order between 1 and 5 per year depending on their total volume. The higher the price the less you will sell. If people were whiling to give you the prices you demand, why then have you and every other dealer seen sales volume reductions. Why is there market share loss. Why because less people are able or refuse to pay your price. Ford has been monitoring losses and is cutting back capacity to compensate for the size of their market. When the price increases the market shinks. If you try to tell me that you are selling the same volume that you were in 04' than you are a liar. Yes me and the rest of your customers do decide what the market will bear through our purchasing descisions. First rule of marketing is to see if there is a market for any new product that you want to sell, then determine your buy/build price and then set you pricing to a fair margin. Once the product is released you make adjustments to your pricing to get the best return while still hitting you target sales. Your capacity should be inline sales. If you over build in the auto industry at the end of each year you have to off the difference to the wholesale market or deeply reduce the purchase price through year end incentives. Now if you underbuild than you lose unrealized potential profits. This is what Ford is doing by reducing capactiy, they are getting it inline with their market share to attempt to turn a profit. As a customer I don't give a sh-t what you lose as long as I get what I want and at a fair price. When enough people feel the same as I do, as a business man you have to do something in order to restore volume. Don't get me wrong I do understand Ford runs the show by setting your wholesale price. I also understand that they don't give you much by way of margins, but that's not my problem! Neither you or I get to negotiate with Ford, but I can cut your margins. If you went enough time without a sale on your terms you would change your terms eventually, or close up shop and have a great liquidation sale that I may consider buying at! Edited February 15, 2008 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96towncarcartier Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Well obviously most of you have never worked as a salesman. IT'S A LOT TO LEARN!! There's a million techniques that all claim to be the "right way" to sell a car and deal with customers. Then there are the EXAMS... Yes...Exams. Every single model that is made has an exam. Ford, Mercury and Lincoln all have exams for every single vehicle....and you've got to pass ALL of it...and remember it!! You've got to know the available gear ratios to an F-650 and whether traction control is optional or standard on a Taurus. Then you have to know about the Sync...the electrochromic mirror on a Town Car...what CD players are available on a Marquis.... the list goes on and on and on. Is it any wonder that a salesman can't remember it all??? I agree though...there are oftentimes too much back-and-forth stuff between sales and the manager. And too many managers who use the "this deal is only good in the next 5 minutes" techniques like it's still the 1970's. I agree.....I wish the salespeople would be more educated about the products they're selling. I find it annoying (but funny) when I have to tell the salesperson features of the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 simplify it for me...little too convoluted.... Simply E-Bay allows me to sell in more markets than just the U.S. Canada has to pay more for their cars in MSRP and resale prices. Having such a large market at my finger tips, and an auction sight that finances those who qualify gives me a greater oppertunity to get above KBB trade value for my car. This means I am no longer restricted to just what you are whiling to pay for my trade! The biggest reason that I just refinanced my car was becuase, not only did it save me $140 a month, but I would never be able to find a low milage used car in the age/condition that mine is in for $250.00 a month! Simply keeping it was the best option. I can well afford a higher payment but, I was bracing myself for contract time in case we would have gone on strike. The reduced monthly liability was what I wanted at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 (edited) I understood both sides of the arguement the whole time also, but it is counter productive for either of us to relent on this issue. You want the highest possible profit and I want the best possible trade and price. First let me say that I could well afford a Shelby for the price you ask, but their is a distinct difference between what I can afford and what I'm whilling to spend. (most don't even know a difference can exist) Yes the Shelby will sell for your price but in very little volume per store. Most dealers only order between 1 and 5 per year depending on their total volume. The higher the price the less you will sell. If people were whiling to give you the prices you demand, why then have you and every other dealer seen sales volume reductions. Why is there market share loss. Why because less people are able or refuse to pay your price. Ford has been monitoring losses and is cutting back capacity to compensate for the size of their market. When the price increases the market shinks. If you try to tell me that you are selling the same volume that you were in 04' than you are a liar. Yes me and the rest of your customers do decide what the market will bear through our purchasing descisions. First rule of marketing is to see if there is a market for any new product that you want to sell, then determine your buy/build price and then set you pricing to a fair margin. Once the product is released you make adjustments to your pricing to get the best return while still hitting you target sales. Your capacity should be inline sales. If you over build in the auto industry at the end of each year you have to off the difference to the wholesale market or deeply reduce the purchase price through year end incentives. Now if you underbuild than you lose unrealized potential profits. This is what Ford is doing by reducing capactiy, they are getting it inline with their market share to attempt to turn a profit. As a customer I don't give a sh-t what you lose as long as I get what I want and at a fair price. When enough people feel the same as I do, as a business man you have to do something in order to restore volume. Don't get me wrong I do understand Ford runs the show by setting your wholesale price. I also understand that they don't give you much by way of margins, but that's not my problem! Neither you or I get to negotiate with Ford, but I can cut your margins. If you went enough time without a sale on your terms you would change your terms eventually, or close up shop and have a great liquidation sale that I may consider buying at! ok, youve calmed a little and are starting to make sense without berating dealerships and their personel as a whole...I will correct you on Shelbys...we don't ORDER them, they are ALLOCATEd by Ford...we have NO control over the amount we get...this year it is 3...2 coupes, 1 convertible. Also there is wheeling annd dealing with Ford ( a you scratch my back i'll scratch yours...I call it extortion ) ...we just accepted 10 homeless vehicles ( closed dealers bastard inventory ) in order to MAYBE get a SINGLE KR Gt500.....I hate to think what the general concencus of Addendums will be between dealers on THAT one ( I have heard a RIDICULOUS figure of $75,000 over MSRP.....now THAT will have BON humming for sure )....As for the comments about you HAVING to get the deal you stipulate, don't you think there is a true REASOn they let you waklk mummbling to yourself....what would you do if someone offered you a lot less than you wanted for your car...oh thats right....you didn't accept it! Case Closed. and PS e-bay only works for used and Halo cars...... Edited February 15, 2008 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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