Minivan

[battyr]

After Chrysler invented the mini van with the Caravan, Ford and GM tried to be different by bringing out the Aerostar, Transport, and Astro. The failed to be as successful as Chrysler but did make a profit. By the time they started to copy Chrysler with the Windstar and Venture vans it was too late. Chrysler had too much of a market lead.

 

Today with Toyota, Honda and Hyundai making copies of the Caravan, the market is too competitive and you can not make a profit unless you are Chrysler selling 500,000 units a year or have the reputation of Toyota and Honda. Anyone else will have to do something a little different like Nissans new Quest, or a CUV.

 

Smaller Mini vans have not done well. Americans want larger Vans. Ford could bring out something based on the C1/C2 but will have to build it in the USA in small volumes with other C1/C2 and sell it around the world. If the costs get too high, or they try to dump too many on the market, it will fail.

 

I think a better bet is to go bigger than a Caravan. Build the next generation Transit in the US with US styling, US size engine and Minivan function. If they can get a truely unique vihicle with the qualities of the Caravan, bigger sized and towing ability with out compromising cost or fuel effiecency they may have a successful van. Think E-series with the cost and effiecency of a Caravan.

[BORG]

The Transit is not a retail product, it's designed for fleet use only and could never be a suitable minivan. In Europe, the equivalent Minivan is the Galaxy or C-Max.

 

Ford is currently very weak in the 7-seater market and the Flex doesn't look mass-market enough for this segment to gain much of a foothold. Ford still needs a modern people hauler for the masses.

[johnnyb82]

After Chrysler invented the mini van with the Caravan, Ford and GM tried to be different by bringing out the Aerostar, Transport, and Astro. The failed to be as successful as Chrysler but did make a profit. By the time they started to copy Chrysler with the Windstar and Venture vans it was too late. Chrysler had too much of a market lead.

 

I wouldn't say that Ford copied Chrysler. Ford was able to produce a larger, more aerodynamic minivan in the Windstar before the Caravans, etc. copied it.

[RichardJensen]

Windstar v. 1 missed out on the 2nd slider. Windstar 2.0 was ahead of the curve briefly.

 

To Borg's assertion of the need for a people mover for the masses I ask this question:

 

How many units per year?

 

The segment is shrinking and entering, let alone re-entering a shrinking segment is not wise, especially with the segment being neatly bracketed by Explorer 3.0 & Flex. If you are looking at potentially 250k+ 7 passenger people mover units in the Explorer, Expy, and Flex, one wonders how much volume you could squeeze out of a purpose built minivan, and whether it could at all be considered as a vehicle 'for the masses'.

[LSFan00]

I don't see the 250HP large minivan segment falling too fast. The vehicles are WAY too practical for their use and just won't fade into the night like the large station wagon did. If you're loading and unloading 3-4 kids at a time, a minivan is the only way to go that makes practical sense. What has hurt the minivan just as much as the move to CUVs and SUVs is the shrinking size of the US family. People just don't tend to have more than 2 kids anymore. I'm far the exception than the rule with my 4 (yes, we added one last week). That's also why we have two minivans. And, to that note, when you need a minivan, you need it to be capable. It has to be able to safely merge onto the highway with a double stroller in the back, 4 kids (2 in car seats), the support gear for a newborn and a toddler still in diapers, all your groceries, two adults up front, and whatever else your shopping trip included, while also carrying every airbag imaginable, providing 4-5 starts of crash worthiness from every angle, have enough power points to recharge two cell phones, run two DVD players, and an i-pod, support dual air conditioners, and still provide enough seperation for each of the kids to stop the incessant fighting you get when they have to touch. That, my friends, requires a nice V6 with a good, broad torque band. That's why we love our Sienna. That 3.5L DOHC iVVT engine has gobs of power and the 5AT that its mated to has great reliability and intelligence.

 

I can see where a hybrid minivan would get a lot of attention. The batteries could be kept in trays under the floor. The engine up front could be a 2.5-2.7L I-4 with a motor/generator, CVT and regenerative braking. If they could manage a consistent 25 mpg in the city and maybe 30+ on the highway, they'd sure sell a lot of them. Given the load requirements of a large minivan, a small diesel would also work well. Would definitely do well on the highway and would still perform well in the city with its gobs of torque.

 

I think this is inconsistent reasoning. We have two kids, and enjoyed a minivan also for a few years (also a Sienna). But, as you pointed out, you are the exception, not the rule. Also, the average American family of 4 even, with inflation and gas prices escalating, won't be considering having two 250hp minivans for convenience and safe merging with the whole pride in tow unless they are also in the top 5 percent income brackets in a few years. Two $30K, 250 hp, under 20mpg baby chariots armed with 12 airbags a piece is awesome, for the ego-less family (note; popular perception still labels them as uncool is my only point).

 

I understand and respect your point, and regret not having the minivan any longer frankly, but it is not moving forward going to be a good market for Ford to target, let alone take some other ideas from this thread and screw up the global Transit product line to compete with the Oddysey/Sienna.

 

Thanks, but let's do a few consumer cars in the United States not beginning with "F-" that beat Honda/Toyota in retail SALES before jumping back into the under 20 mpg uber-minivan race. And the prospect of making it an extra 5K more expensive by adding a hybrid powertrain is not frankly playing to Ford's strength any more than the idea itself in the first place.

[RichardJensen]

Thanks, but let's do a few consumer cars in the United States not beginning with "F-" that beat Honda/Toyota in retail SALES before jumping back into the under 20 mpg uber-minivan race. And the prospect of making it an extra 5K more expensive by adding a hybrid powertrain is not frankly playing to Ford's strength any more than the idea itself in the first place.

Why should outselling Honda and Toyota be a prerequisite for any move into a different segment?

[J-150]

Windstar v. 1 missed out on the 2nd slider. Windstar 2.0 was ahead of the curve briefly.

 

To Borg's assertion of the need for a people mover for the masses I ask this question:

 

How many units per year?

 

The segment is shrinking and entering, let alone re-entering a shrinking segment is not wise, especially with the segment being neatly bracketed by Explorer 3.0 & Flex. If you are looking at potentially 250k+ 7 passenger people mover units in the Explorer, Expy, and Flex, one wonders how much volume you could squeeze out of a purpose built minivan, and whether it could at all be considered as a vehicle 'for the masses'.

 

 

I think if its' looked at as a people mover (like the flex) versus a defined vehicle (minivan) the units sold can be there.

 

So no to the minivan, but yes to ensuring there is some kind of people mover.

[Pioneer]

one wonders how much volume you could squeeze out of a purpose built minivan

 

You don't need to build a minivan. You just need to add sliding doors and a foot or two to the back of the Flex. Just like the Expedition and Expedition EL.

[Deanh]

You don't need to build a minivan. You just need to add sliding doors and a foot or two to the back of the Flex. Just like the Expedition and Expedition EL.

NO NO NO......overhangs are too big on the flex now...bareable but STILL too big.......

[atomaro]

I'm far the exception than the rule with my 4 (yes, we added one last week). That's also why we have two minivans.

 

Congratulations on the newest addition to the family!

[Deanh]

Congratulations on the newest addition to the family!

Holy fertilty Clinic Batman.....congrats!

[mlhm5]

Ford and GM have forsaken the minivan, should they reconsider or move on with CUVs? How is growth in this segment now that fuel economy favors the traditional family hauler?

 

The minivan follows a VERY specific formula that is not satisfied by the Flex or any Lambda product and I'm wondering if there isn't a desire to return to this segment.

 

Sorry, without unlimited resources, you cannot be a hero in every market and if you cannot be #1 or #2 you are just wasting the money.

 

I would think after LR, Jag and Volvo Ford would have learned a lesson.

[Edstock]

I would think

 

Excellent! When do you propose to start? Will there be any significant difference? Will we be able to tell?

[Pioneer]

if you cannot be #1 or #2 you are just wasting the money.

 

 

Does that mean Ford will pull out of every market except full sized truck, taxi cabs and contractor vans?

[Deanh]

Does that mean Ford will pull out of every market except full sized truck, taxi cabs and contractor vans?

I think he is implying in fords current status $ are better spent in more licritive markets...yes there may be a market for minivans...are they HOT, I think not.....get the verve here and the ecoboosts, etc etc...future is looking brighter...

[Pioneer]

I think he is implying in fords current status $ are better spent in more licritive markets...

 

I know. But I wouldn't be me if I didn't ask.

[BORG]

I don't think a Minivan is needed to carry the people mover market, but Ford of all the full-line manufacturers is the weakest in this category. The Explorer is hemorrhaging market share quicker than any minivan. The Flex appears to be a niche player with a very polarizing design, but the Flex could surprise. Ford is expecting 100,000 units a year for the Flex, which should be doable in the first year. The next Explorer which is still 3-4 years away, should be able to catch up on the Lambdas, Pilots, and Highlanders of the world which have drawn most of the Explrorer's market.

 

Ford has always struggle (beyond the Explorer) to compete successfully in this market. From the Minivans to the Freestyle/Taurus X, Ford can't quite nail this one and I'm sill waiting for something smart to happen here and I don't see it happening yet.

[BORG]

More Flex Dimension Info.

 

 

Interior Specs (inches)

 

Headroom Leg Shoulder Hip

 

1st Row 41.8 40.8 58.4 55.4

 

2nd Row 40.5 44.3 58.1 55.0

 

3rd Row 38.7 33.3 50.8 41.1

 

Capacities

 

Max seating 7

Total Volume (cu ft.) 155.8

Max Cargo 82.3

Cargo (behind 2nd row) 43.2

Cargo (behind 3rd row) 15.0

Total Interior Volume 175.8

 

Engine Chassis

 

Drivetrain: FWD, or Optional AWD

Engine Type: 3.5L 24V Duratec V6

Transaxle Type: 6 Speed Auto Transmission

Horsepower (SAE net@rpm) 262 @ 2560rpm

Torque: 248 @ 4500rpm

Sterring: Rack and Pinion

Independant Rront and Rear suspension AND 4 Wheel disc Brakes

[RichardJensen]

I don't think a Minivan is needed to carry the people mover market, but Ford of all the full-line manufacturers is the weakest in this category. The Explorer is hemorrhaging market share quicker than any minivan.

Blah blah blah Borg.

 

1) Explorer ain't hemorrhaging market share, unless you're talking overall market share.

 

2) Your assertion that Ford is the weakest comes from your flawed 1:6 comparison with GM--not the first time it's appeared here--wherein you compare the Flex with the Acadia/Traverse/Outlook/Enclave.

 

3) The next Explorer is 2 years out, not 3-4.

[mlhm5]

Does that mean Ford will pull out of every market except full sized truck, taxi cabs and contractor vans?

 

Ford has limited resources and needs to pick the markets they are willing to invest in and protect or grow share.

 

For example, Ford will never have a passenger car again that can compete with the Camry or the Accord, and to do so would cost more $$ than Ford has.

 

Mercury is a failure and needs to be jettisoned as was LR and Jag.

 

Get the picture?

[RichardJensen]

Ford will never have a passenger car again that can compete with the Camry or the Accord

You continue to astonish me. What on earth are you talking about?

 

Are you saying that Ford cannot compete with the Camry and should, therefore, cancel the Fusion?

[Furious1Auto]

Ford has limited resources and needs to pick the markets they are willing to invest in and protect or grow share.

 

For example, Ford will never have a passenger car again that can compete with the Camry or the Accord,

 

Get the picture?

I suppose you are too young to remember who held the title "cough Taurus cough" before the Camry! You better get off your parents computer and sneek into bed before you get caught!

[Edstock]

For example, Ford will never have a passenger car again that can compete with the Camry or the Accord, and to do so would cost more $$ than Ford has

 

You're entitled to your opinion, even if it's a stupid one, and patently false. Why? You can buy an AWD Fusion, and an AWD Taurus, but you can't get AWD in any Toyota sedan or Honda sedan.

 

And in snow country, that means the Camry and the Accord can't compete with the Fusion and the Taurus. Sure, they sell more, but that doesn't mean that the Camry and Accord are design-competitive with the AWD Fords, just better marketing.

 

So, Ford product has better, more sophisticated design and features. With time, the consumer will come to see this, even if you can't.

 

Thanks for playing

 

[armadamaster]

After Chrysler invented the mini van with the Caravan, Ford and GM tried to be different by bringing out the Aerostar, Transport, and Astro. The failed to be as successful as Chrysler but did make a profit. By the time they started to copy Chrysler with the Windstar and Venture vans it was too late. Chrysler had too much of a market lead.

 

Today with Toyota, Honda and Hyundai making copies of the Caravan, the market is too competitive and you can not make a profit unless you are Chrysler selling 500,000 units a year or have the reputation of Toyota and Honda. Anyone else will have to do something a little different like Nissans new Quest, or a CUV.

 

I think were Ford and GM failed with their minivans was the Freestar and the Uplander. The Freestar looked like a cheaper, blander version of the Windstar, and it was. The Uplander looked like a Venture fuglied up with a SUV snout and a new name, and it was. Chrysler may be screwing the pooch right now because their new minivans are the UGLIEST on the road, especially compared to how good looking the last gen was. I HATED to see the Astro/Safari vans go, they were rock solid trucks, with nothing to replace them. Another thing is as far as I'm concerned, Ford and GM made the minivans "uncool" in the late 90's with the SUV stupidity, (as well as with fullsize RWD sedans) and in turn never helped them recover since. Toyota and Honda see money in this segment, it's GM and Ford that surrendered.

Edited March 15, 2008 by Armada Master

[joihan777]

I remember when the original Chrysler minivan came out. Lotta negatives about such an irregular vehicle.

 

My friends in their parents' Dodge Ram Vans said it'd never last. Well, time told a different story. The fuel crisis on the 70's spawned new thinking in American design. Our current reality of looming $5/gal gasoline and CAFE requirements will again motivate a new direction in 5+ people movers. I think Ford's solution of a vehicle that's a little more practical and easier to drive/ park than a minivan but bigger than a little CUV is a good idea at a good time. I see the Flex having lots of potential.

 

The norm as I see it:

(1970) Full size family van---> (1990) Minivan---> (2010) Flex.

 

The Flex IS the new minivan, without being a minivan. Sliding doors (although I love em') must be kept off for a while until the Flex has clearly established its identity as a new class.

 

Hope that made some sense... :D