AWD

[MarkFive]

In a town of 40K people, about 15 miles from two major cities...yes.

 

That is not a snow storm. My Focus handled that easily.

Edited September 24, 2008 by MarkFive

[2005Explorer]

Where did you read that?

 

You claim that AWD does not give any benefit. You don't need to say it. Everything with you is inferred. You must have failed the lessons on inferences in school. You think that everyone should drive what you want. I like the fact that Ford gives me a choice. You don't like AWD? Then by all means don't buy it.

 

You complain about Ford not giving people enough choice and then when they do it automatically becomes a bad thing. I bet if Buick started offering AWD it would be considered a great thing by you.

[P71_CrownVic]

You claim that AWD does not give any benefit. You don't need to say it. Everything with you is inferred. You must have failed the lessons on inferences in school.

 

Ok...so I didn't say it. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Again, the lack of reading comprehension on this site is astounding. I NEVER said that "AWD does not give any benefit", I said that AWD is for people who don't know how to drive...ergo, AWD does offer benefits to people who don't know how to drive.

 

 

You complain about Ford not giving people enough choice and then when they do it automatically becomes a bad thing. I bet if Buick started offering AWD it would be considered a great thing by you.

 

I still wouldn't buy it. It is a waste of money and gas. I don't need AWD to get where I am going.

 

The only AWD I don't mind is the rear-biased RWD. That way, I have a RWD car (like they are supposed to be), and when the computers think it is necessary, it can send power to the front wheels. Other than that, AWD is for sissies.

Edited September 24, 2008 by P71_CrownVic

[2005Explorer]

AWD does offer benefits to people who don't know how to drive.

 

So who judges a good driver from a poor one? You would say that I am a poor driver because I have chosen an AWD car, however I have been driving for 17 years and have never had 1 accident (not even a fender bender a scrape or a scratch) and only a couple of close calls. I have never went into the ditch...not once...in many South Dakota winters. So therefore because I chose AWD I must not know how to drive. How do you prove you are a better driver then me? Maybe I just like having the additional traction to be an even better driver in poor conditions.

Edited September 24, 2008 by 2005Explorer

[P71_CrownVic]

So who judges a good driver from a poor one?

 

A driver not confident enough in his/her abilities to pilot a RWD car down the road in the winter...is a poor driver.

 

I don't know if you realize it or not, but there was a time where all cars were RWD. People had to rely on skills to get their car down the road. Today, you have technology being used as a substitute for good driving skills. The problem with that is technology can only react...it can never be pro-active. Humans, by nature, are properly equipped to take a pro-active approach (like when it is raining...you slow down and give yourself more distance between the car in front of you).

 

Technology should never, EVER be used as a substitute to proper driving skills.

[suv_guy_19]

The problem with that is technology can only react...it can never be pro-active.

 

 

That's not really true anymore. Some AWD systems, including Ford's, can predict. ESP and airbags can be proactive as well. I'm sure there are other technologies that I'm not thinking of.

[stpatrick90]

A driver not confident enough in his/her abilities to pilot a RWD car down the road in the winter...is a poor driver.

 

I don't know if you realize it or not, but there was a time where all cars were RWD. People had to rely on skills to get their car down the road. Today, you have technology being used as a substitute for good driving skills. The problem with that is technology can only react...it can never be pro-active. Humans, by nature, are properly equipped to take a pro-active approach (like when it is raining...you slow down and give yourself more distance between the car in front of you).

 

Technology should never, EVER be used as a substitute to proper driving skills.

I agree that proper driving skills are necessary and that technology should not be a substitute (i.e. Stability Control). But AWD is not a technology, it is another way to send power to the ground just in the same way RWD/FWD are not technologies. AWD may not be your thing and that is okay, but you do not have the authority to think you are a better driver than someone who who prefers AWD. Everyone has their own preference. I prefer an AWD vehicle personally and it isn't because of poor driving skills either, it's because I enjoy the immense grip one gets out of an AWD car. Your attitude is just pompous in my opinion.

[theoldwizard]

the system sells pretty well on the edge but not so much on the fusion, but the vast majority of escapes are 4wd. not sure if the system in the escape is 4wd or an actual awd system

 

and awd comes in handy in more then bad weather conditions. it can help with off the line acceleration and if you end up swerving to avoid say an accident.

I know about 6 Escape owners. None have AWD/4wd !

 

Everyone stated it was not worth the initial cost and hit in fuel economy, even though they all live in SE MI and we get our fair share of snow ! They all say the vehicle works fine in snow !

[theoldwizard]

The Escape uses the same AWD system as the Fusion, Taurus, Edge, and Flex. It is a FWD based system that only activates when slip is detected on one of the drive wheels. The system can transfer almost 100% of power to the one end that has traction........... and I believe even to one tire.

True until your last statement.

 

None of those cars have a "true" limited slip/locking differential in either the front or rear. They may "electronically" partially apply the brake to a spinning wheel to force some of the torque to the opposite side wheel. It works, sort of.

[theoldwizard]

its because most drivers view their cars as just a mode of transportation and therefore don't care whats driving the car....

And you view your vehicle as .... ?

 

I have a friend who is a salaried Ford employee. His wife is mid/upper management at Chrysler. Both hate cars and would rather have an autonomous taxi ! Either that or a Star Trek transporter !!

[theoldwizard]

Our winter here in Montreal last year was horrible.

 

I park on the road at night as I am in an apartment block. I am at the mercy of snow plows.

 

I had front wheel drive with damn good winter tires last year. This was not enough. On several occasions, I came out and saw that the snow plows had piled snow on my car and in my way. I spent a good deal of time having to get every last snow pile out of the way.

And if you think a AWD Edge/Escape/Fusion or even Explorer would allow you to "bust out" you are sorely mistaken !

[suv_guy_19]

And if you think a AWD Edge/Escape/Fusion or even Explorer would allow you to "bust out" you are sorely mistaken !

 

 

Based on experience, I would say that you're mistaken.

[theoldwizard]

It is beneficial for people who don't know how to drive. The AWD in my Mom's Escape is the most useless piece of garbage I have ever seen. We had a big snowstorm last year with 4-6 inches ON THE ROAD. My open-diff RWD car did just as good as my Mom's Escape.

 

If you know how to drive, AWD is not necessary. I have yet to be stuck in my car...unlike all of the 4X4 and AWD vehicles I see in the ditch every time it snows.

I caught an interesting news show on Canadian TV. The province of Quebec now requires 4 snow tires on all cars during the "winter" driving season. Car rental companies are not happy.

 

In the Canadian Rockies, last year, you could not rent a vehicle anywhere with true snow tires. Everything had all weather tire. Accident rate for SUVs with AWD/4WD were not significantly better than other vehciles during the winter driving season.

 

Finally, they compared 2 minivans, one with and one without snow tires and 2 AWD SUVs, one with and one without snow tires. The "non-snows" were "all season". In a snow covered (about 4-6") parking lot the vehicle with snow tires consistently beat the comparable one with all season. The driver (a professional rally driver) said he would rather have the minivan with snows than the AWD SUV without.

 

Further more, independent tire experts admitted all season tires gace almost no additional traction in new snow, packed snow or Ice. The tire industry expert gave a lot of "non-answers" about all-season tires.

 

Excerpts from Wikipedia on Tires

All Season Tires

 

The All Season tire classification is a compromise between one developed for use on dry and wet roads during summer and one developed for use under winter conditions. The type of rubber and the tread pattern best suited for use under summer conditions cannot, for technical reasons, give good performance on snow and ice. The all-season tire is a compromise, and is neither an excellent summer tire nor an excellent winter tire

 

Mud and Snow

 

Mud and Snow, (or M+S, or M&S), is a classification for specific winter tires designed to provide improved performance under low temperature conditions, compared to all-season tires. The tread compound is usually softer than that used in tires for summer conditions, thus providing better grip on ice and snow, but wears more quickly at higher temperatures. Tires may have well above average numbers of sipes in the tread pattern to grip the ice.

 

Dedicated winter tires will bear the "Mountain/Snowflake Pictograph"

if designated as a winter/snow tire by the American Society for Testing & Materials. Winter tires will typically also carry the designation MS, M&S, or the words MUD AND SNOW

Bottom line, dedicated snow tires out perform all other tires in snowy/icy conditions.

Edited September 24, 2008 by theoldwizard

[theoldwizard]

Do you call 4 to 6 inches on the road a snow storm? I am talking about 20 inches at least 7 times last winter.

With 20 inches everything becomes a snow plow unless you have a SUV or pickup with a 6" lift on it ! :lol:

[MarkFive]

And if you think a AWD Edge/Escape/Fusion or even Explorer would allow you to "bust out" you are sorely mistaken !

 

I think you are confusing "bust out" with being able to "get out."

[MarkFive]

Everyone stated it was not worth the initial cost and hit in fuel economy, even though they all live in SE MI and we get our fair share of snow ! They all say the vehicle works fine in snow !

 

I remember winters in SE Michigan. 4 inches of snow and schools close for 2 days.

[battyr]

I am confused by the "mud and Snow" tires. The best snow tires use a softer rubber that gives better traction on ice. This softer rubber can not be used in summer heat. So I would not call them mud tires? I think that there are "mud and snow" tires that only have a more aggressive tread and there are real "ice and snow" tires for winter driving only.

 

Every winter, after the first ice storm, I see lots of big 4X4's with very agressive tires, in the ditch. I pass them in my FWD minivan with "winter ice" tires. I have no problems. When the snow is over 15" deep, I stay home until the roads are plowed. With remember, with deep snow, it is mostly air.

[battyr]

With Chevy Volt and other hybrid technology, you could put an electric motor on any wheel you want. I think this will be the future of AWD.

 

However the difference between FWD and RWD is more than just where the drive wheels are. FWD tend to use a "Cab Forward" design to save weight and cost. RWD would use what I call "Wheel Forward" design to get the best weight distribution. AWD is not a complete solution to making a FWD car perform like a RWD car. It is not an issue of what wheels are driven, but an issue of economy v.s. performance.

 

You can take a RWD BMW and make it handle like a FWD car by bringing out an AWD version of it. This could be fixed with technology like revoknuckle.

 

You can take a FWD car and make it more like an RWD car with AWD, but you would have to add other technology like revoknuckle, electronic torque distribution, etc... You would still not have the weight distribution, nor the style of a real RWD. You may be able to appeal to the general market.

[V8-X]

A lot has to do with the driver. A good driver with an RWD is many times better than a bad driver with AWD. But all things being equal, the car with AWD will perform better in wet/snowy conditions than a FWD or RWD.

 

I understand your liking of RWD P, but you can't deny in certain conditions the AWD is supperior to the RWD. I too prefer RWD over FWD/AWD, but have the 4x4 when needed at the flip of a switch. Which happens, since Denver may be fine, but get into the mountains to our west a little and then you may truly need AWD/4x4.

 

Love to see them RWD cars trying to climb some of our hills/mountains here with icy and barely plowed roads in the winter. The FWD don't do much better, but the 4x4 & AWD usually don't have many difficulties, being they are gripping (pulling/pushing) with all 4 tires rather than just 2.

 

Tires do make a difference, the more worn the tire, the less traction of course. Again it's kind of funny watching these bald tire vehicles, no matter if they are FWD/RWD/AWD or 4x4 trying to climb an icy hill. Mud tires do nothing for ice driving. Sure they look cool and all, but do not provide the required contact and traction needed in icy conditions. Most buyers do not understand the negatives of these tires. Just like too many people buying AWD/4x4 think just because they get you going quicker than a FWD/RWD, they are better in snow, without realizing that the added speed and weight only takes longer to stop and the AWD/4x4 doesn't help any in stopping distance. Snow tires, now they work great, like a football cleat on turf, they dig in much better than a non-cleated shoe. Similar to the chains truckers must install many times to pass though the Rockies during the winter.

 

And 4-6 inches? That's a light dusting that everyone, no matter make/model is out on the roads in here in CO. Now as you get to over 12-15 inches and you see many more AWD/4x4 than FWD/AWD. Reminds me of a year or two back, got roughly 24 inches in about 24hrs. Boy was it fun being one of the only people on the road with my 150, while all those FWD/RWD/AWD vehicles were stuck in their driveway. Of course mostly only true 4x4 vehicles were on the road then. Part of the 150's benefit other than 4x4 was it's ground clearance.

 

Little info about what I consider heavy snow that the 150 made through without a hiccup.

 

snowfall total for 16 days to more than 80 inches in some areas

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_20-2...lorado_Blizzard

 

In these heavy snow storms clearance is the biggest factory, not traction. Icy conditions, it's about traction not clearance.

[atomaro]

RWD is only acceptible in poor weather conditions when you have a fairly balanced car. The weight needs to be distributed. A 2wd F-150 will not go anywhere due to poor weight distribution. Something with good traction (Blizzakcs or Vrederstein, etc) and close to 50/50 weight distribution is your only chance. And of course, some additional weight may be required. But, with the weight over the drive wheels, most FWD can be done with a set of all season tires that has a good amount of tread left, and a full tank of gas.

Edited September 24, 2008 by atomaro

[P71_CrownVic]

True until your last statement.

 

None of those cars have a "true" limited slip/locking differential in either the front or rear. They may "electronically" partially apply the brake to a spinning wheel to force some of the torque to the opposite side wheel. It works, sort of.

 

I know on my mom's "4WD" Escape...the highest amount of wheels that will be getting power at any one time...is 2.

 

Not really a 4WD vehicle.

[P71_CrownVic]

I agree that proper driving skills are necessary and that technology should not be a substitute (i.e. Stability Control). But AWD is not a technology, it is another way to send power to the ground just in the same way RWD/FWD are not technologies. AWD may not be your thing and that is okay, but you do not have the authority to think you are a better driver than someone who who prefers AWD. Everyone has their own preference. I prefer an AWD vehicle personally and it isn't because of poor driving skills either, it's because I enjoy the immense grip one gets out of an AWD car. Your attitude is just pompous in my opinion.

 

AWD is most certainly a technology. It is not an electronic technology (to a point), but it is a technology. And the majority of people use AWD as a scapegoat for proper driving skills.

 

I agree that *if* everything is equal, yes AWD is superior...and that in a couple areas of the country, it may be helpful to have. But with the vast majority of people living in or near major cities, AWD offers no benefit. Streets are plowed fairly quickly and hardly get stacked up with snow.

[MarkFive]

And the majority of people use AWD as a scapegoat for proper driving skills.

 

That's quite a blanket statement there.

[P71_CrownVic]

That's quite a blanket statement there.

 

And I'll stand by it. I see more 4X4/AWD vehicles in the ditch every year than ANYTHING else. That tells me that people, with poor driving skills, bought an AWD/4X4 vehicle for a sense of security...and yet, their poor driving skills STILL bit them.

[Extreme4x4]

March 20th, 2006............... 36" of snow in 1 day. The town of Payson ground to a halt. Snow berm in front of driveway: appx 4 feet. Roads plowed, but still had that nice thick layer of ice on them (snow was very wet), along with 6-8 inches of snow.

 

I backed out of my driveway, like the snow was not there. Drove into town, down my narrow, winding, mountainous road, and there were cars/trucks stuck all over the place. Made it to work, and was 1 of only 10 people who made it in............. good thing to, since I was the vault employee.

 

No RWD would have gone anywhere that day................ and they didn't. After work, I went to pick up some food, and was amazed with how little movement there was on the road.

 

Vehicle used: 2003 Mazda Tribute AWD. Handled the situation like the weather was dry. There was zero drama in driving, with the exception of braking, as you had to be more careful. My AWD system paid for itself that day.

 

I drove a RWD vehicle in bad weather for years, and had next to no problems. However, I cannot control how other people drive, and the AWD gives you the extra margin for safety................. so you can avoid those people. I would not risk my sons life, for my vanity (in insisting I have to have RWD).

 

AWD is just that, awd. It is not four wheel drive, as there is no transfer case. Hell, even most four wheel drives are nothing more than glorified two wheel drives (one drive tire on each end). With a good limited slip, you end up with three wheel drive............... and even that is not guaranteed, as a limited slip is just that.............. limited. The only real four wheel drive, will have a locker in both ends.............. as I had in my rockcrawler. This way, all four tires turn the same................. all the time.