AWD

[papilgee4evaeva]

And I'll stand by it. I see more 4X4/AWD vehicles in the ditch every year than ANYTHING else. That tells me that people, with poor driving skills, bought an AWD/4X4 vehicle for a sense of security...and yet, their poor driving skills STILL bit them.

 

I'll agree with that one... as far as *some* people, anyway.

 

I'm one of those who can drive anything through snow (done it with FWD, RWD, and 4WD... haven't done AWD on snow).

 

Let it be ice, though, and the 4WD wins.

 

Then we'd say FWD because my wife made it home in one piece last winter with all the ice we got (and she's almost strictly an A-to-B driver).

 

RWD + ice - traction control/weight in the trunk = most likely a problem for the majority of drivers.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

As far as AWD in Ford vehicles, I believe we'll see its true merits when the EcoBoosted cars come out in the normally FWD lines.

[MarkFive]

I backed out of my driveway, like the snow was not there. Drove into town, down my narrow, winding, mountainous road, and there were cars/trucks stuck all over the place. Made it to work, and was 1 of only 10 people who made it in............. good thing to, since I was the vault employee.

 

You are a bad driver making up for your lack of driving skills by using AWD. Most bad drivers with AWD end up in ditches in rural towns in Minnesota.

Edited September 24, 2008 by MarkFive

[theoldwizard]

I am confused by the "mud and Snow" tires. The best snow tires use a softer rubber that gives better traction on ice. This softer rubber can not be used in summer heat. So I would not call them mud tires? I think that there are "mud and snow" tires that only have a more aggressive tread and there are real "ice and snow" tires for winter driving only.

You are not confused. You 100% correct.

 

Tires labeled "M+S" are better in snow than ones that are not, but are far short of true "snow tires".

[atomaro]

And I'll stand by it. I see more 4X4/AWD vehicles in the ditch every year than ANYTHING else.

 

 

Happens all the time. What people fail it understand is that AWD and 4x4 help you to go like hell in snow...but when you hit the brakes, you stop just like you were driving a 77 Cordoba. ABS doesn't work on snow like it does on dry pavement.

[V8-X]

I agree that *if* everything is equal, yes AWD is superior...and that in a couple areas of the country, it may be helpful to have. But with the vast majority of people living in or near major cities, AWD offers no benefit. Streets are plowed fairly quickly and hardly get stacked up with snow.

 

Depends on where you live within some cities. I know some suburbs of Denver that when plowed are plowed horribly. Also, main roads are kept up but many of the back roads/side streets are not plowed and make for a fun drive.

 

And I'll stand by it. I see more 4X4/AWD vehicles in the ditch every year than ANYTHING else. That tells me that people, with poor driving skills, bought an AWD/4X4 vehicle for a sense of security...and yet, their poor driving skills STILL bit them.

 

I'll admit I see more AWD/4x4 in ditches, due to bad drivers. They understand 4x4 gets you going and unstuck easier, they just lack the knowledge that it won't do anything for you when it comes to stopping. You also see your fair share of RWD cars that side swipe parked cars because the rear end tries to pass the front.

 

AWD is just that, awd. It is not four wheel drive, as there is no transfer case. Hell, even most four wheel drives are nothing more than glorified two wheel drives (one drive tire on each end). With a good limited slip, you end up with three wheel drive............... and even that is not guaranteed, as a limited slip is just that.............. limited. The only real four wheel drive, will have a locker in both ends.............. as I had in my rockcrawler. This way, all four tires turn the same................. all the time.

 

But also remember, an AWD has a certain % split, no 50/50 front/back like a 4x4. My 99 Explorer 5.0L AWD was around 35% front 65% back split and was horrible in the snow compared to my fathers '96 Explorer 4.0L SOHC 4x4. I'd take a true 4x4 over AWD any day after owning 1 AWD and 5 4x4's.

 

Happens all the time. What people fail it understand is that AWD and 4x4 help you to go like hell in snow...but when you hit the brakes, you stop just like you were driving a 77 Cordoba. ABS doesn't work on snow like it does on dry pavement.

 

Exactly! Just like I see many idiot FWD/RWD people in the summer, I see plenty of idiot drivers in 4x4/AWD during the winter. Simpoly amazes me the way people will drive.

[jpd80]

So basically, in the snow belt states the descending order of preference is AWD, FWD and RWD last.

Most buyers seem happy with FWD as it achieves what they want at less cost than AWD. If the weather is that bad that AWD or 4WD is needed on the roads, you'd have to ask whether cars should be out

driving around in the first place.

 

While RWD has a great performance heritage, it does fall down in extreme weather conditions and

that's where weight distribution plays a big part. Perhaps something like the Pontiac G8 with its

50/50 weight distribution may challenge the FWD vehicles instead of comparing older RWDs

with 60/40 weight distribution.

 

I know the snow belt folks need cars too but there's a whole lot of folk out there that dont suffer

snow in the winter, is it fair that they should have to buy a FWD vehicle when a RWD gives better

dry weather performance and does everything they need.

 

Just food for thought but I think there's room for both.

Edited September 24, 2008 by jpd80

[P71_CrownVic]

March 20th, 2006............... 36" of snow in 1 day. The town of Payson ground to a halt. Snow berm in front of driveway: appx 4 feet. Roads plowed, but still had that nice thick layer of ice on them (snow was very wet), along with 6-8 inches of snow.

 

Vehicle used: 2003 Mazda Tribute AWD.

 

My AWD system paid for itself that day.

So you are saying that because of the AWD, you were able to go places?

[P71_CrownVic]

Happens all the time. What people fail it understand is that AWD and 4x4 help you to go like hell in snow...but when you hit the brakes, you stop just like you were driving a 77 Cordoba. ABS doesn't work on snow like it does on dry pavement.

 

That's what I am saying. AWD and systems like stability control and traction control only mask mistakes that are made by poor drivers. And when you eventually bite it, you will bite it hard.

[V8-X]

So basically, in the snow belt states the descending order of preference is AWD, FWD and RWD last.

Most buyers seem happy with FWD as it achieves what they want at less cost than AWD. If the weather is that bad that AWD or 4WD is needed on the roads, you'd have to ask whether cars should be out driving around in the first place.

 

Evidently you haven't been to CO or some of the snowy mountain states. During the winter you must have a 4X4 or AWD to survive and get to town. Otherwise with 2WD you'd be buried in practically the entire season. Not saying specifically larger cities that do receive sufficient plowing, but some of the towns in the foothills and even further into the mountains.

 

That's what I am saying. AWD and systems like stability control and traction control only mask mistakes that are made by poor drivers. And when you eventually bite it, you will bite it hard.

 

Yes these systems help compensate for bad drivers, but also make good drivers that much better. So it benefits everyone.

[V8-X]

So you are saying that because of the AWD, you were able to go places?

 

Can't speak for Extreme4X4, but will state there have been a few times locally that without 4x4/AWD you were going no where unless you walked. Snow was up to the top of the bumper of my 150 on side streets, so unless you had good ground clearance and traction you were stuck. These are the reasons I purchased a 4x4. Love to see those peoples faces trying to dig out their 2WD cars from their driveways while I plow through without a hiccup.

[elkarlo]

We have any percentages for models?

[Extreme4x4]

You are a bad driver making up for your lack of driving skills by using AWD. Most bad drivers with AWD end up in ditches in rural towns in Minnesota.

 

Excuse me???

 

Did you read my entire post, where I talked about having to be careful with braking because of the conditions??? When the weather is poor, you have to be more careful about everything.

 

AWD allows you to move, and manuver in poor conditions.............. it does not compensate for poor driving. When you can concentrate on the conditions, and the other people on the road.............. instead of just trying to move in the direction you want to, you can be a safer driver.

 

My point was, unlike what P said, the AWD system on my Tribute (same as Escape) worked fantastically in the poor conditions. The ability to move the power around, as traction was available, made driving safely just that much easier. Nobody with a RWD, and next to nobody with a FWD vehicle made it anywhere that day............ well, except for stuck at the side of the road. I was safely able to do what I needed to do that day............. and was very impressed with the AWD system.

 

Currently, I drive a 4wd vehicle, and had for years previously............... so I know how they handle in poor weather............... and how to drive them in poor weather. Just like I know how FWD handles, and RWD handles. In bad snow conditions, in mountainous terrain, like where I live, I will take AWD over all................ first. Then 4wd.

 

Nice way of turning around what I said, though.

 

When it comes to the majority of drivers on the road, it doesn't matter what they drive.............. they can't really drive anything.

[jpd80]

When it comes to the majority of drivers on the road, it doesn't matter what they drive.............. they can't really drive anything.

 

I'd give that my "post of the day" vote.

 

Well said Extreme4x4.

[suv_guy_19]

Excuse me???

 

Did you read my entire post, where I talked about having to be careful with braking because of the conditions??? When the weather is poor, you have to be more careful about everything.

 

AWD allows you to move, and manuver in poor conditions.............. it does not compensate for poor driving. When you can concentrate on the conditions, and the other people on the road.............. instead of just trying to move in the direction you want to, you can be a safer driver.

 

My point was, unlike what P said, the AWD system on my Tribute (same as Escape) worked fantastically in the poor conditions. The ability to move the power around, as traction was available, made driving safely just that much easier. Nobody with a RWD, and next to nobody with a FWD vehicle made it anywhere that day............ well, except for stuck at the side of the road. I was safely able to do what I needed to do that day............. and was very impressed with the AWD system.

 

Currently, I drive a 4wd vehicle, and had for years previously............... so I know how they handle in poor weather............... and how to drive them in poor weather. Just like I know how FWD handles, and RWD handles. In bad snow conditions, in mountainous terrain, like where I live, I will take AWD over all................ first. Then 4wd.

 

Nice way of turning around what I said, though.

 

When it comes to the majority of drivers on the road, it doesn't matter what they drive.............. they can't really drive anything.

 

 

Hate to break it to you Gloria, but I think he was being sarcastic and his post was at Ps expense rather than yours. It's ok though, sometimes that Canadian humour is a little hard to catch on to :P.

Edited September 25, 2008 by suv_guy_19

[MarkFive]

Excuse me???

Did you read my entire post, where I talked about having to be careful with braking because of the conditions??? When the weather is poor, you have to be more careful about everything.

 

Uh.....I was being sarcastic based on P's reasoning about bad drivers.

 

I actually agree with you.

[MarkFive]

Hate to break it to you Gloria, but I think he was being sarcastic and his post was at Ps expense rather than yours. It's ok though, sometimes that Canadian humour is a little hard to catch on to :P.

 

I was being sarcastic - thanks. I thought it was pretty clear based on the posts before it.

 

Is sarcasm just a Canadian thing (I guess British as well)?

 

Go Jack Layton!

[hoss96racing]

The Escape uses the same AWD system as the Fusion, Taurus, Edge, and Flex. It is a FWD based system that only activates when slip is detected on one of the drive wheels. The system can transfer almost 100% of power to the one end that has traction........... and I believe even to one tire.

 

It completely seamless, and you will never know it is working. It is also far superior to most other AWD systems, in its transparency.

 

Due to the fact that it does add weight, this is where you lose mpg, but not much. As the vehicle is FWD unless needed, it is not active very often.

 

Take rate of AWD depends on market. In the Valley, unless someone ski's alot, the take rate on AWD is very low. Here, where we do get snow and ice, and it is mountainous, the take rate is high (over 50%). Offering it as an option on most of their vehicles is fantastic, and one of the reasons that Fords are primary on my possible purchase list. I will not have a non AWD car/cuv.

 

 

I hope that it is more "seamless" than my 2002 escape... in the auto setting on a snowy/icy road the rear end would dance as it engaged/disengaged, very uneasy feeling, but the 2002 still had the option for full time 4x4, turn the knob and with it locked in it would go straight down the road. When I was looking to replace it I saw that the newer ones didn't get the "full 4x4 knob" and that automatically removed the escape from my shopping list. If the rest of the AWD's work like that then I would avoid them....

[atomaro]

I hope that it is more "seamless" than my 2002 escape... in the auto setting on a snowy/icy road the rear end would dance as it engaged/disengaged, very uneasy feeling, but the 2002 still had the option for full time 4x4, turn the knob and with it locked in it would go straight down the road. When I was looking to replace it I saw that the newer ones didn't get the "full 4x4 knob" and that automatically removed the escape from my shopping list. If the rest of the AWD's work like that then I would avoid them....

 

 

Seamless integration on my 05. Manual controls were done away with.

Edited September 25, 2008 by atomaro

[LSFan00]

Clearly, the AWD-on-everything decision was made prior to realizing how important mileage was going to be. Money for optional powertrain "upgrades" could have been used, differently. (CNG/Diesel/hybrids (more)/suspension packages/CVT etc.) If you can't keep 1 or 2 of your wheels firmly planted on the pavement you really should consider public transportation.

 

To the obligatory "but, where I live, it's a necessity!" posters; you are a minority, and you don't need it on every model. Further to the point, I just don't care.

[NickF1011]

Clearly, the AWD-on-everything decision was made prior to realizing how important mileage was going to be. Money for optional powertrain "upgrades" could have been used, differently. (CNG/Diesel/hybrids (more)/suspension packages/CVT etc.) If you can't keep 1 or 2 of your wheels firmly planted on the pavement you really should consider public transportation.

 

To the obligatory "but, where I live, it's a necessity!" posters; you are a minority, and you don't need it on every model. Further to the point, I just don't care.

 

I think you're missing the whole point behind the offering of AWD. The way I see it, it was a play TOWARD better fuel economy, not away from it. Ford likely figured that many people who were coming out of large SUVs and liked the benefits of AWD on those vehicles would appreciate that aspect also being available on sedans and crossovers.

 

Just my two cents.

[jpd80]

There was a discussion on the boards earlier this year on the Fusion sales break up.

IIRC, about 75% of cars sold were FWD I-4, the remainder was a mix of "must have" V6 and AWDs.

There is a need for V6 engines but it's nowhere near as strong as people think and as for AWD,

I'm pretty sure Ford thought many more people would tick the AWD option when buying Fusion.

[NickF1011]

There was a discussion on the boards earlier this year on the Fusion sales break up.

IIRC, about 75% of cars sold were FWD I-4, the remainder was a mix of "must have" V6 and AWDs.

There is a need for V6 engines but it's nowhere near as strong as people think and as for AWD,

I'm pretty sure Ford thought many more people would tick the AWD option when buying Fusion.

 

Maybe. Maybe not. I'm sure they were expecting the vast majority of Fusion sales to be FWD I4's. That's just the makeup of the segment. On the other hand, what does it really cost to offer AWD on the vehicle since other CD3 platform mates are expected by consumers (Edge and MKX) to offer it already anyway?

[V8-X]

To the obligatory "but, where I live, it's a necessity!" posters; you are a minority, and you don't need it on every model. Further to the point, I just don't care.

 

Where I live, I guess it's not a "necessity", but for some of my family, without AWD/4x4, they'd be stuck at home for weeks if not months on end.

 

Sure it doesn't need to be on every model, but why not offer the option if you have the supplies and capabilities?

 

Glad you don't care, that's fine, but I'm sure your mind would change if you lived in some of these area's that require AWD/4x4 in the dead of winter.

[P71_CrownVic]

To the obligatory "but, where I live, it's a necessity!" posters; you are a minority, and you don't need it on every model. Further to the point, I just don't care.

 

Just come to MN. NOWHERE in this state is AWD necessary...unless you don't know how to drive.

[P71_CrownVic]

March 20th, 2006............... 36" of snow in 1 day. The town of Payson ground to a halt. Snow berm in front of driveway: appx 4 feet. Roads plowed, but still had that nice thick layer of ice on them (snow was very wet), along with 6-8 inches of snow.

 

Vehicle used: 2003 Mazda Tribute AWD.

 

My AWD system paid for itself that day.

 

So you are saying that because of AWD, you were able to go places?