Pioneer Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 So you'd rather have a plastic-fantastic rebadge of a Chrysler minivan? To avoid driving a foreign nameplate? Hell yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
156n3rd Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Just a few mental notes on this subject: -Ford had a good minivan and let it die, just like they let the Contour die. -I live in an area that has 3 cities, many townships and over 600,000 people and have yet to see a Flex. -I have checked out my 2 local dealers for 2009 PTCruisers and have found NO 2009 of any model. -Hyundai/Kia minivans have that warranty, and their quality is still on the rise and the cost less. -I feel that it doesen't matter where your car is made, if you bought it here, money is still made here by the people who transport, sell it and service it. Those people contribute to our economy, period. -In the year I was born, 1953, we still had independent U.S. auto makers. GM being the culprit of over-building 5 divisions of the same cars. Now, imports rule. Try prying a Camry from it's owner and tell them they must drive a Chevy or a Dodge. Yeah right. -Just remember what happens if Chrysler dies. All those jobs go with it. We need that company to survive. My '02 PTC is about to turn 100,000 miles. It runs as good as they day I bought it. It's a singular exceptionally built product of Chrysler. I know it'll be gone soon, but I will not consider the HHR because it's a cheap Chevy. Those 2.2 engines are mighty loud and not that powerful in that guise. Ford doesn't make anything like them. Hmm, maybe I'll get a Kia Rondo somewhere down the road as a companion car to wife's excellent running Accent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted November 12, 2008 Author Share Posted November 12, 2008 Hmm, maybe I'll get a Kia Rondo somewhere down the road as a companion car to wife's excellent running Accent. If you are going to turn to Asian built vehicles and are considering a Rondo....do yourself a favor and look over Mazda5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Just a few mental notes on this subject:-I live in an area that has 3 cities, many townships and over 600,000 people and have yet to see a Flex. -I feel that it doesen't matter where your car is made, if you bought it here, money is still made here by the people who transport, sell it and service it. Those people contribute to our economy, period. -In the year I was born, 1953, we still had independent U.S. auto makers. GM being the culprit of over-building 5 divisions of the same cars. Now, imports rule.Ford doesn't make anything like them. Hmm, maybe I'll get a Kia Rondo somewhere down the road as a companion car to wife's excellent running Accent. I live in South Florida (usually you'll see tons of the newest models) and I hardly seen any Flexes. And I'm not counting the one I see almost every day (the head soccer coach of my team -I'm an assistant coach- has one). I understand your point, and yes, even buying an import will contribute to the economy by shipping, selling, etc., but in the end the money (at least for the car) goes back to the car's country of origin. Well, Toyota looks like it may make the same mistake GM did (although I think they'll differentiate them more than GM has)......they're proposing 2 extra brands to bring the total to 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 To avoid driving a foreign nameplate? Hell yes. Some people just make no sense. You'd rather spend your money on an inferior vehicle just for the sake of it not being foreign? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len_A Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Some people just make no sense. You'd rather spend your money on an inferior vehicle just for the sake of it not being foreign? Absolutely, especially considering how many more communities depend on the Detroit 3, rather than the transplants, for support of their residents livelihoods. Let alone what buying an import, even one that's reputed to be superior, does to the economy. Like rmc523 posted, once you factor the economic benefit of shipping and retailing the car, which really applies to all cars that are retailed, an import cars gross profit goes back to the point of origin, and the net profit (if there's any) goes back to the country of origin for the brand. The Detroit 3 not may have, but did, in fact, make some shitty product. So has everyone else at one point or another, but this consumer-driven-I'm-going -buy-the-best-bang-for-my-buck-regardless-of-where-it's-made mentality has a cost, economically, to the country and we're seeing the absolute proof of it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 (edited) Absolutely, especially considering how many more communities depend on the Detroit 3, rather than the transplants, for support of their residents livelihoods. Let alone what buying an import, even one that's reputed to be superior, does to the economy. Like rmc523 posted, once you factor the economic benefit of shipping and retailing the car, which really applies to all cars that are retailed, an import cars gross profit goes back to the point of origin, and the net profit (if there's any) goes back to the country of origin for the brand. The Detroit 3 not may have, but did, in fact, make some shitty product. So has everyone else at one point or another, but this consumer-driven-I'm-going -buy-the-best-bang-for-my-buck-regardless-of-where-it's-made mentality has a cost, economically, to the country and we're seeing the absolute proof of it now. Spare me the patriotic stand-up-for-the-American-working-man B.S. I'm not spending my hard-earned money on inferior product. None of the Detroit 3 should expect anyone to either. End of story. Edited November 12, 2008 by NickF1011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len_A Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 (edited) Spare me the patriotic stand-up-for-the-American-working-man B.S. I'm not spending my hard-earned money on inferior product. None of the Detroit 3 should expect anyone to either. End of story. That's your opinion, which you can have. If you feel that way, why are you on these forums, since they center around Ford products and employees? Let even one of the Detroit 3 even file Chapter 11 - then we'll what the economic fallout is. Plus Ford is damn competitive in both product and quality. Edited November 12, 2008 by Len_A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 That's your opinion, which you can have. If you feel that way, why are you on these forums, since they center around Ford products and employees? Let even one of the Detroit 3 even file Chapter 11 - then we'll what the economic fallout is. Plus Ford is damn competitive in both product and quality. Please do point out where I said that Ford isn't competitive in both product and quality. I never said they weren't. But they sure wouldn't be if they offered up a rebadged Chrysler minivan. That's my point. Detroit isn't going to win back customers on "feel good" principles. They are only going to win back customers by offering good product. Would you expect customers to part with hard-earned money to buy product that is of lower quality than what is available elsewhere just out of the goodness of their hearts? If you do, you're only contributing to the problems the Big 3 have been having over the past several decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Spare me the patriotic stand-up-for-the-American-working-man B.S. I'm not spending my hard-earned money on inferior product. None of the Detroit 3 should expect anyone to either. End of story. +1 Fuck'em if they can't make a world class segment product. Just "good enough" doesn't cut it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 +1 Fuck'em if they can't make a world class segment product. Just "good enough" doesn't cut it anymore. Take your +1 back. I never said the domestics don't make any world class segment products. They make several these days. They just shouldn't expect us to buy just out of patriotic duty, but also as a value/quality decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len_A Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Please do point out where I said that Ford isn't competitive in both product and quality. I never said they weren't. But they sure wouldn't be if they offered up a rebadged Chrysler minivan. That's my point. Detroit isn't going to win back customers on "feel good" principles. They are only going to win back customers by offering good product. Would you expect customers to part with hard-earned money to buy product that is of lower quality than what is available elsewhere just out of the goodness of their hearts? If you do, you're only contributing to the problems the Big 3 have been having over the past several decades. I didn't say or imply that you said Ford wasn't competitive, I was making a statement. Only company offering a rebadged Chrysler Minivan, to the best of my knowledge, is VW, right? The Volkswagen Routan, with their annoying-as-hell Brooke Shields commercials. The vans design is good, but as you pointed out, quality is lacking. Same with GM, too, and I think that hurts Ford, because our county's idiotic car buying public, and equally idiotic media, both paint Detroit in broad strokes, so the sins of one or two become the sins of all. And even with what quality problems GM & Chrysler have, I doubt that they're any worse than what even Toyota's had within the last ten years. Google or Yahoo search the words "Toyota Engine Oil Sludge" and dig around long enough and you'll find reports of engine seizures in six and seven year old, Japanese built Lexus V-6's and V-8's. Press barely ever reported it. When this first came out, Nick, a few years ago, Automotive News was the only one to really carry the story - $30,000 Toyota minivans with seized engines and dealers giving the owners grief, accusing them of owner abuse and refusing to honor the warranty - if I kept a copy of the article, I'll try to scrounge around my hard drives and post it if I find it. The mainstream media ignored the story for the most part, and continue to slam Detroit endlessly, only encouraging the buying publics distorted view of GM, Ford, & Chrysler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 I didn't say or imply that you said Ford wasn't competitive, I was making a statement. Only company offering a rebadged Chrysler Minivan, to the best of my knowledge, is VW, right? The Volkswagen Routan, with their annoying-as-hell Brooke Shields commercials. The vans design is good, but as you pointed out, quality is lacking. Same with GM, too, and I think that hurts Ford, because our county's idiotic car buying public, and equally idiotic media, both paint Detroit in broad strokes, so the sins of one or two become the sins of all. And even with what quality problems GM & Chrysler have, I doubt that they're any worse than what even Toyota's had within the last ten years. Google or Yahoo search the words "Toyota Engine Oil Sludge" and dig around long enough and you'll find reports of engine seizures in six and seven year old, Japanese built Lexus V-6's and V-8's. Press barely ever reported it. When this first came out, Nick, a few years ago, Automotive News was the only one to really carry the story - $30,000 Toyota minivans with seized engines and dealers giving the owners grief, accusing them of owner abuse and refusing to honor the warranty - if I kept a copy of the article, I'll try to scrounge around my hard drives and post it if I find it. The mainstream media ignored the story for the most part, and continue to slam Detroit endlessly, only encouraging the buying publics distorted view of GM, Ford, & Chrysler. I'm quite aware of the sludge problem in past Toyotas. We're closer to being on the same page than it originally appeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Some people just make no sense. You'd rather spend your money on an inferior vehicle just for the sake of it not being foreign? why not, people buy inferior imports (VW, Kia, etc al) just for the sake of not buying a domestic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 why not, people buy inferior imports (VW, Kia, etc al) just for the sake of not buying a domestic. I wouldn't call them smart either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Some people just make no sense. You'd rather spend your money on an inferior vehicle just for the sake of it not being foreign? Damn straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
156n3rd Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 why not, people buy inferior imports (VW, Kia, etc al) just for the sake of not buying a domestic. I own an import and a domestic. Your statement holds no water. It's a knee-jerk reaction to try and be different or independent. I buy what suits my needs and budget and I don't care who builds it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Damn straight. Can't say I understand that logic at all. Oh well. It's your money. Waste it as you may. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 People seem to forget that Nissan still makes the Quest. I'm certainly not going to blindly buy american is the product is clearly inferior to a competing product that's foreign. Comparing the current Grand Caravan/T&C to the two market leaders (Sienna and Odyessey), the main point of inferiority of the Chrysler minivans is powertrain, specifically the engines. The 3.3L is just a dog in that application, but offers a cheap laternative for the bottom end of the market. That is something that Toyota and Honda don't have in their vans (and clearly don't need). The 3.8L has the neccessary torque, but not hte HP, and gets poor gas mileage no matter how its employed. The 4.0L OHC engine is power competitive, but doesn't match the asians in smoothness or efficiency. Aside from the design, which is a bit bland in the Chryslers, bit not offensive, the interior is every bit as good as the asian's now. The VW rebadge is even better on the inside and I think may be tops in the class. As for the class as a whole... Honda offers the most efficient entry (their cylinder deactivation equipped EX models) Toyota offers the only AWD model Kia/Hyundai offer the cheapest to obtain models while still being competitive on features. Nissan still has the weirdest and shines at nothing, but is still competitive overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 the interior is every bit as good as the asian's now. Ummmmm..... Innovative features? Sure. Quality materials? Riiiiight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Ford needs to push for the minivans! Ford does not need Chryslers mini vans. Ford has the transit comming state side. Between the Edge and the transit is should fill the Minivan gap. Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Ford does not need Chryslers mini vans. Ford has the transit comming state side. Between the Edge and the transit is should fill the Minivan gap. Matthew Transit? Minivan? A more valid argument would be why would Ford chase a shrinking segment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I own an import and a domestic. Your statement holds no water. It's a knee-jerk reaction to try and be different or independent. I buy what suits my needs and budget and I don't care who builds it. that's you. but there are those out there that refuse to buy domestic for a number of reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
156n3rd Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 that's you. but there are those out there that refuse to buy domestic for a number of reasons. Really? Is that a fact? Well, you (and anyone else that feels the way you do) are limiting the possibilities of what is available in the markertplace. Why would the Big 3 be in the shape they are in now if they hadn't done the right thing? And you're right, that is me. I don't expect anyone to agree with my feelings, but I do have that right to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
156n3rd Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 (edited) that's you. but there are those out there that refuse to buy domestic for a number of reasons. Really? Is that a fact? Well, you (and anyone else that feels the way you do) are limiting the possibilities of what is available in the markertplace. Why would the Big 3 be in the shape they are in now if they hadn't done the right thing? And you're right, that is me. I don't expect anyone to agree with my feelings, but I have that right to do so. Edited November 14, 2008 by 156n3rd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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