SVT: Alive and Well.

[Deanh]

1) If anything got Ford in trouble, it was focusing on sizzle instead of steak.

 

2) This statement presupposes that SVT is a brand worth developing. You can't convince me that's the case, as citing AMG is almost certainly inappropriate as an example for an entry-level manufacturer to imitate.

I don't weigh the importance of the actual initials SVT as a "hot" point, the product should stand on its own feet, ie Raptor, SHO, GT500 etc etc...however maybe developed by SVT on NICE LOOKING cam covers is classy subtle recognition.....

[NickF1011]

Nick...with you on the Adreniline concept...it WAS awesome, and I would have given my right -ut for that car....

 

Yep. Just seemed like a great combination of light utility and kickass-ness.

[Deanh]

Yep. Just seemed like a great combination of light utility and kickass-ness.

kinda reminded me of the GMC...Cyclone if I remember rightly....

[RichardJensen]

I don't weigh the importance of the actual initials SVT as a "hot" point, the product should stand on its own feet, ie Raptor, SHO, GT500 etc etc...however maybe developed by SVT on NICE LOOKING cam covers is classy subtle recognition.....

I agree. I think there should be SVT badging on the products. SVT should be something the 'fans' know about.

 

But as to the general public? Let them drool over the rather fantastically named "Raptor" instead of the F150 SVT.

[NickF1011]

kinda reminded me of the GMC...Cyclone if I remember rightly....

 

Syclone. GMC didn't know how to spell back then.

 

Its brother Typhoon was pretty slick for the time too.

[Deanh]

I agree. I think there should be SVT badging on the products. SVT should be something the 'fans' know about.

 

But as to the general public? Let them drool over the rather fantastically named "Raptor" instead of the F150 SVT.

can't wait to see that thing in the flesh...6 inches wider...man does it look wild....hell, they could have named it Heathen

[morgande]

I agree. I think there should be SVT badging on the products. SVT should be something the 'fans' know about.

 

But as to the general public? Let them drool over the rather fantastically named "Raptor" instead of the F150 SVT.

 

 

Badging = Marketing in my book. While the "Raptor" name is cool, it doesn't help much for the purposes of consistency. The general public might not know just what an AMG is...or its history...but they do understand that is a special version of a Mercedes Benz. And when they see an AMG CLS for example...people know its not just a CLS...but a AMG CLS (whatever that means).

 

A Raptor is cool...but what does that have to do with a GT500? Nothing...unless your in the know. Once the SVT badge is known...it COULD get the same kind of reaction that AMG does. If behind the scenes its a division or just a badge, it really becomes a mute point. It can become a consistent name recognition that follows one or more product within the catalog. And it helps (IMHO) to reinforce other products that carry that same badge (and thus justifying the premiums). They all are a part of a family of product that is something more than the original.

[NickF1011]

A Raptor is cool...but what does that have to do with a GT500? Nothing...unless your in the know.

 

EXACTLY. The Raptor really doesn't have anything to do with the GT500. They are two entirely distinctive and different types of vehicles. Why even try to relate them on any level? They are related close enough in that they are both Fords.

[morgande]

EXACTLY. The Raptor really doesn't have anything to do with the GT500. They are two entirely distinctive and different types of vehicles. Why even try to relate them on any level? They are related close enough in that they are both Fords.

 

 

Not true. To me there is a very close relationship between the two. They are 2 seperate products yes. But they are aimed at the same type of buyer and created by the same division within Ford (enthusiast performance vehicles).

 

Same as what does a M3 have to do with an M5? The M is the similarity...brings a common element to both. Once you "Know" what a M3 is, then you Know what an M5 is too. You might not know what either is at first, but once you know what one is, you know what the other is too.

[NickF1011]

Not true. To me there is a very close relationship between the two. They are 2 seperate products yes. But they are aimed at the same type of buyer and created by the same division within Ford (enthusiast performance vehicles).

 

Same as what does a M3 have to do with an M5? The M is the similarity...brings a common element to both. Once you "Know" what a M3 is, then you Know what an M5 is too. You might not know what either is at first, but once you know what one is, you know what the other is too.

 

Again comparing Ford to a luxury brand. It just can't be compared that way.

 

What other mainstream brand has successfully marketed a performance division? None of them. There's no point to it. Here's why: People buy BMW's because they are BMW's. People don't generally buy Fords because they are Fords. People would be even less likely to buy an SVT Ford because it's an SVT Ford, so why bother trying to establish it as a brand within another brand that most people really don't consider overall because of its name as it is already? I think you will find that most Ford owners bought their Ford because it was that particular model, not because it was a Ford. On the other hand, you'll find most BMW owners own them because they are BMW's and little more. I didn't buy my Mustang because it was a Ford. I bought it because it was a Mustang. A lot of F-series buyers don't buy them because they are Fords. They buy them because they are F-series, and many of them don't and will not own another Ford.

 

The only brand the Ford division should be focusing on strengthening is Ford. Beyond that, all emphasis should be on individual models and doing whatever can be done to make those individual models stronger. Adding SVT into that mix just confuses an already confusing marketing effort. Take the GT500 for example: Does Ford market mainly as a Ford? Or a Shelby? Or a GT500? Then you confuse it further by asking them to then market it as an SVT too?

Edited February 4, 2009 by NickF1011

[wildosvt]

Its proper name is the F150 SVT Raptor. Now let's see how the discussion play's out.

 

http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-f-150-raptor.html

 

SVT is in the air vent on the fender.

Edited February 4, 2009 by wildosvt

[NickF1011]

Its proper name is the F150 SVT Raptor. Now let's see how the discussion play's out.

 

Yeah, and the proper name for my car is SVT Mustang Cobra, according to its "birth certificate", but nobody calls it that.

Edited February 4, 2009 by NickF1011

[RichardJensen]

The general public might not know just what an AMG is...or its history...but they do understand that is a special version of a Mercedes Benz.

no. The general public has no idea what an AMG is.

 

Remember, you're talking about the G-E-N-E-R-A-L public. As in, in this country, 300 and some million Americans.

 

I think AMG has a 'man in the street' recognition factor of less than 19 out of 20. Most people simply do not care.

 

They'll buy Fords if Consumer Reports says it's okay. While in the dealership they may whistle over the GT 500 or the RAPTOR, without giving a second though to the engineering crew that worked on both of those products.

 

And that's as it should be. Nick has covered the rest of my points.

Edited February 4, 2009 by RichardJensen

[wildosvt]

Yeah, and the proper name for my car is SVT Mustang Cobra, according to its "birth certificate", but nobody calls it that.

 

 

Im seeing your point. Only real car guys/gal's know what it is. And call it so. I feel more people know what SVT is then we think. Atleast in my neck of the woods.

[MKII]

I gather from the comments here that in America "Fast Ford consumers" relate Mustang and pick up truck only to this segment.

If the answer is yes to this, then I'd say SVT is very limited in what vehicles it can attempt to sell a business case to Ford N.A.

[NickF1011]

I gather from the comments here that in America "Fast Ford consumers" relate Mustang and pick up truck only to this segment.

If the answer is yes to this, then I'd say SVT is very limited in what vehicles it can attempt to sell a business case to Ford N.A.

 

Well, "Fast Ford consumers" are only used to the Mustang and Lightning being the only options as of late, but that doesn't mean another vehicle wouldn't be accepted by that group. As one of those "Fast Ford consumers", I'd be tickled pink by a legitimate performance version of an AWD Fusion. I just don't think calling it "Fusion SVT" would do anything to help its cause though.

 

 

So, here's a question: What would be a good name for an SVT version of the Fusion?

[silvrsvt]

Well, "Fast Ford consumers" are only used to the Mustang and Lightning being the only options as of late, but that doesn't mean another vehicle wouldn't be accepted by that group. As one of those "Fast Ford consumers", I'd be tickled pink by a legitimate performance version of an AWD Fusion. I just don't think calling it "Fusion SVT" would do anything to help its cause though.

 

 

So, here's a question: What would be a good name for an SVT version of the Fusion?

 

Why even bother? Outside of the Mustang and F-150, SVT hasn't really generated a success with other cars....

 

Why not just call the performance verison of the Fusion or Focus ST for Sport Tuned, instead of that crappy Fusion Sport monkier it has.

[NickF1011]

Why even bother? Outside of the Mustang and F-150, SVT hasn't really generated a success with other cars....

 

Why not just call the performance verison of the Fusion or Focus ST for Sport Tuned, instead of that crappy Fusion Sport monkier it has.

 

The other SVT programs outside F-150 and Mustang didn't fail because they were not Mustangs or F-150's. They failed because they were sub-standard products that didn't stand up to scrutiny compared to the Cobras and Lightnings of the time.

 

I would be all for using the ST moniker in place of the "Sport" name bestowed upon the 3.5L Fusion. But it shouldn't end there.

 

Market a 300+ HP EcoBoost Fusion with AWD only, a 6-speed manual or paddle shifters, overboard suspension and brake upgrades, and a truly sporty appearance package. A project like that would be right up SVT's alley in my opinion. I just don't think it would fly without a name to make it stand out from the crowd of "lesser" Fusions though. "Fusion SVT" wouldn't cut it, just as Contour SVT and Focus SVT didn't. It would be the perfect car for the Mustang owner who decided to have kids. Would it sell in droves? No. Could they move a few thousand of them a year to cover the development costs? Quite possibly. I doubt it will be explored at this point just because Ford is more interested in locking up the bread-and-butter parts of the lineup, as they should, but I don't think it should be ignored as a possible long-term addition to the lineup.

 

Along the same lines, I would like to see a hot-rodded version of the Focus when the next generation arrives.

[morgande]

Again comparing Ford to a luxury brand. It just can't be compared that way.

 

What other mainstream brand has successfully marketed a performance division? None of them. There's no point to it. Here's why: People buy BMW's because they are BMW's. People don't generally buy Fords because they are Fords. People would be even less likely to buy an SVT Ford because it's an SVT Ford, so why bother trying to establish it as a brand within another brand that most people really don't consider overall because of its name as it is already? I think you will find that most Ford owners bought their Ford because it was that particular model, not because it was a Ford. On the other hand, you'll find most BMW owners own them because they are BMW's and little more. I didn't buy my Mustang because it was a Ford. I bought it because it was a Mustang. A lot of F-series buyers don't buy them because they are Fords. They buy them because they are F-series, and many of them don't and will not own another Ford.

 

The only brand the Ford division should be focusing on strengthening is Ford. Beyond that, all emphasis should be on individual models and doing whatever can be done to make those individual models stronger. Adding SVT into that mix just confuses an already confusing marketing effort. Take the GT500 for example: Does Ford market mainly as a Ford? Or a Shelby? Or a GT500? Then you confuse it further by asking them to then market it as an SVT too?

 

I'm not comparing Ford to a Luxury brand. I'm talking about marketing, or lack thereof, of performance vehicles of Ford from their performance division...SVT.

 

You are right in saying that people buy BMW's because they are BMWs. BUT...people don't buy M's became they are M's or BMWs. They buy M3s and M5s because they are good cars that are executed very well. If the M3 was just M badging and hype but nothing to back it up, would it enjoy the success that it has? What about the M5? I am not comparing a Ford to a BMW. What I am comparing is the strong and consistent badging that BMW and MB and Audio and lots others do with their respective vehicles and how it works to reinforce those vehicles as a separate "brand".

 

You don't need to be luxury to do this. Mazda does this with the MazdaSpeed. Chrysler with the SRT. Pontiac with the GSX. There are others as well. If underneath these are merely badges done form marketing purposes only, or whole on divisions within the respective companies, the point is that it Is consistent! You can argue about if these respective companies badging is a "success" or not till the cows come home. That argument is very subjective to whomever is making it...and I'm not trying to get into that debate here.

 

The reason why Ford confuses their customers is because they aren't consistent. They have SVT Mustang Cobra, SVT Ford Lightning, all these codenames that get tacked on. Cars like the GT500 are even worse because of the Shelby badging on top of the normal ford ones. This is Ford led confusion. They choose to disvalue the SVT nameplate when it comes to marketing...its not the customers fault!

 

 

no. The general public has no idea what an AMG is.

 

Remember, you're talking about the G-E-N-E-R-A-L public. As in, in this country, 300 and some million Americans.

 

I think AMG has a 'man in the street' recognition factor of less than 19 out of 20. Most people simply do not care.

 

They'll buy Fords if Consumer Reports says it's okay. While in the dealership they may whistle over the GT 500 or the RAPTOR, without giving a second though to the engineering crew that worked on both of those products.

 

And that's as it should be. Nick has covered the rest of my points.

 

You must have miss-read my post. I said that the average joe probably has no clue what AMG is. But...when/if they see the AMG badge, it stands out as something "diffeent". They might not have a clue as to what it really is...and thats not the point. The mere fact that it says AMG XYZ is all the clue they need. And its consistent across all the AMG models. So once they see one, the next time they see another it will help to reinforce that concept.

 

If its just a badge or if its a whole another division, that is again not the point. Anyone who BUYS one will know what is what, that much is for certain. Thats regardless if ts a SVT, SRT, Madaspeed, or AMG. The main takeaway for me is that its consistent. And consistency is what brings about any form of success, no mater how you measure it. If SVT is EVER going to branch into more than a 2 trick pony (pun intended), they will need to have better consistency in their marketing.

[NickF1011]

Mazda does this with the MazdaSpeed. Chrysler with the SRT. Pontiac with the GSX. There are others as well.

 

The fact that you have confused the name of Pontiac's performance branding (it's GXP, not GSX) shows how useless such efforts have been.

 

The reason why Ford confuses their customers is because they aren't consistent. They have SVT Mustang Cobra, SVT Ford Lightning, all these codenames that get tacked on. Cars like the GT500 are even worse because of the Shelby badging on top of the normal ford ones. This is Ford led confusion. They choose to disvalue the SVT nameplate when it comes to marketing...its not the customers fault!

 

Ford has been completely consistent. From the beginning the emphasis was on the individual vehicle, not on the SVT brand. It was the same in 1993 as it is today. SVT badging didn't even appear on the vehicles at all until 1995.

 

I don't think it's entirely coincidence that the two failed vehicles under SVT were those where the emphasis was placed on the "SVT" part of the name instead of on the vehicle itself. Of course, it didn't help that they weren't super-standout vehicles, but it probably hurt more that those vehicles never really had their own identity. People instantly recognize what a Cobra, GT500, or a Lightning are. They know they are above-and-beyond versions of the Mustang and F-150, and they know them by name. That association didn't exist for the Focus or Contour SVT variants.

Edited February 5, 2009 by NickF1011

[blksn8k2]

I get the impression that a lot of people are confusing the past life of SVT with its curent role within Ford. Or perhaps they just want things to go back to the way they were. When John Coletti was in charge of SVT it was as much a marketing division for its products as it was an engineering arm. Today the marketing side no longer exists. The "market" is apparently different now. It seems that instead of selling a relatively inexpensive SVT badged performance version of an existing model they are now upgrading existing models with SVT engineering and charging a much higher premium to a more exclusive buyer.

[morgande]

Its funny to me, because it seems like 3rd parties like Roush can pull this off but Ford can't. Ford can't market a SVT Focus....but Roush can market a Roush Focus! Ford can't market an SVT F-150, but Roush can market a Roush F150.

 

Seems like the only one who can't do this is...Ford.

[MKII]

No I think it is SVT that has to figure out how to pull it off, instead of allowing themselves to be in a sense invisible.

Edited February 5, 2009 by MKII

[NickF1011]

I get the impression that a lot of people are confusing the past life of SVT with its curent role within Ford. Or perhaps they just want things to go back to the way they were. When John Coletti was in charge of SVT it was as much a marketing division for its products as it was an engineering arm. Today the marketing side no longer exists. The "market" is apparently different now. It seems that instead of selling a relatively inexpensive SVT badged performance version of an existing model they are now upgrading existing models with SVT engineering and charging a much higher premium to a more exclusive buyer.

 

SVT was rarely about marketing SVT. It was about marketing the products that SVT produced. As I pointed out in my last post, during the first 2 years of SVT's existence, their vehicles didn't even say "SVT" on them anywhere.

 

 

Its funny to me, because it seems like 3rd parties like Roush can pull this off but Ford can't. Ford can't market a SVT Focus....but Roush can market a Roush Focus! Ford can't market an SVT F-150, but Roush can market a Roush F150.

 

Seems like the only one who can't do this is...Ford.

 

Apples to oranges. People are buying the Roush name in those cases and in far, far, far fewer numbers than even the worst-selling SVT models. What, SVT should emulate Roush and Saleen so they can sell FEWER vehicles? That makes sense.

 

People don't buy SVT vehicles because of the SVT name. People bought Cobras because they were Cobras, not because they were SVT's. People bought Lightnings because they were Lightnings, not because they were SVT's. People buy GT500's because they are GT500's, not because they are SVT's. People will buy Raptors because they are Raptors, not because they are SVT's. The formula they have now works. Why go through the effort of trying to change it into something it isn't? Just because it works for some other companies?

 

Yeah, how's that "V-Spec" or "Spec-V" or whatever the hell it is doing for Nissan? How's that "Type-S" and "Type-R" crap working out for Honda? What about the oh-so-successful "TRD" brand at Toyota? All of them are irrelevant. The only truly successful examples you can give are on luxury car lines: AMG and BMW's M group. SRT has hardly been proven to be successful. I can't even beleive you brought up Mazdaspeed as an example of something to be emulated. It has been anything but successful. And you couldn't even get the name of Pontiac's performance lineup right, so I can't possibly see how you would consider that to be a marketing success.

 

The fact that SVT has been quietly chugging along and still putting out some amazing vehicles 16 years after it was formed should tell you that they are already doing something right. That's older than damn near any performance division from any automaker on the planet.

Edited February 5, 2009 by NickF1011

[morgande]

...People don't buy SVT vehicles because of the SVT name. People bought Cobras because they were Cobras, not because they were SVT's. People bought Lightnings because they were Lightnings, not because they were SVT's. People buy GT500's because they are GT500's, not because they are SVT's....

 

The GT500 is a PRIME example of brand inconsistency. If things are so consistent, then why is it that Ford can't call a GT500 a Cobra, even though its got the same Cobra badge as all the other Mustang Cobras?

 

Anyone who is in the market for a GT500 knows its a Cobra. But for political nonsense reasons they can't call it that. But everyone who doesnt know that calls them a Cobra because that is what they see all over the damn vehicle.

 

Ford is going through great lengths to give the Lincolns a consistent set of names. MK [sUCH N SUCH]. They need to do this across the board..and SVT qualifies as well.