RichardJensen Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Point is, with Ecoboost technology opening up to us, we're far less limited as far as doing a performance variant is concerned. Richard, I think your summary of successful SVT vehicles has to do with a lack of a good front wheel drive platform. We have some now, and the addition of AWD, great powertrains and styling could make SVT a very easy draw. I don't want SVT to mean "it's got an Ecoboost". I flat out do not want the SVT badge used at all. You cheapen what SVT means if you use it to signify "a better engine and tweaked suspension". Call them "Sport" models. Leave SVT for front to back reengineering of a vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefstang Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Is the SHO going to be badged as an SVT vehicle? Anyone? Anyone? Beuller? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Is the SHO going to be badged as an SVT vehicle? Anyone? Anyone? Beuller? No, because SVT didn't develop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgande Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Your program for SVT seems to depend on a belief that Ford can sell a $35k Fusion SVT because they can sell a $42k Shelby GT 500----if they append SVT to the end of the GT 500 name. I cannot possibly agree with this idea. I don't see how you can make that assumption, as I have not mentioned price a single solitary time on this thread. Price has nothing to do with my argument. What I was speaking on was on this: The Focus and Contour SVT models failed and were pulled. So why did they fail? Was it based on sales volume (associated with number of units sold, nothing to do with price). If a nitch brand is based on volume, its not gonna work. There are gonna be models that don't have volume (as I argued with the AMG Gs and others). MBenz still offers these vehicles even though I assume they probably don't sell very many of them even for AMG models. IMO, you MUST do SVT vehicles right, and you cannot do that unless you can get a SIGNIFICANT price premium, and you just cannot get that premium off a Fusion or a Fiesta. I mean, given several years maybe Ford could charge a 75% premium for an SVT engineered Fusion, but certainly not now. Profit or Premium? Is the goal to make significant profit off a nitch product you don't get much volume off of? Or is the effort to boost the prestige of a product by charging a premium for one in order to justify its existence? Price premium does not work well for a company associated with volume sales and affordability. The mustang was/is popular because it wasn't very expensive and it was a good performance car. Same with the vette. Hell even the Ford GT was considered a steal because of what a typical mid engine supercar would cost you vs the stock performance and potential the GT offered. I just don't see your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I don't see how you can make that assumption, as I have not mentioned price a single solitary time on this thread. Price has nothing to do with my argument. What I was speaking on was on this: The Focus and Contour SVT models failed and were pulled. So why did they fail? Was it based on sales volume (associated with number of units sold, nothing to do with price). If a nitch brand is based on volume, its not gonna work. There are gonna be models that don't have volume (as I argued with the AMG Gs and others). MBenz still offers these vehicles even though I assume they probably don't sell very many of them even for AMG models. Profit or Premium? Is the goal to make significant profit off a nitch product you don't get much volume off of? Or is the effort to boost the prestige of a product by charging a premium for one in order to justify its existence? Price premium does not work well for a company associated with volume sales and affordability. The mustang was/is popular because it wasn't very expensive and it was a good performance car. Same with the vette. Hell even the Ford GT was considered a steal because of what a typical mid engine supercar would cost you vs the stock performance and potential the GT offered. I just don't see your argument. the reasons for the SVT Focus and Contour failing pretty much came down to one thing....shitty horsepower embarassed by great chassis'....the Focus SHOULD have been knocking on 200hp, the Contour 250...Focus was a great package with great potential...the Contour never really took off, perhaps the backseat for midgets along with 4 doors did not help either.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefstang Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 No, because SVT didn't develop it. Wasn't sure. Down boy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Wasn't sure. Down boy. :lol: Wasn't trying to be snappy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) Profit or Premium? Is the goal to make significant profit off a nitch product you don't get much volume off of? Or is the effort to boost the prestige of a product by charging a premium for one in order to justify its existence? Price premium does not work well for a company associated with volume sales and affordability. 1) The goal should be to make an item desirable. One of the ways you make an object desirable is by charging a premium. You cannot boost the prestige of a product by selling it for peanuts. 2) I would certainly not want Ford to be losing $5k a product on its SVT products. I want Ford to be able to charge a significant premium off base and still turn a small (but definite) profit. 3) Price premium HAS worked with the Cobra/Shelby products AND the Lightning. Therefore, that model should be followed. Again, I reiterate, you cannot sell prestige cheaply. Yet you must have something to offer in addition to price in order to have prestige. SVT products should carry prestige. They will do this by 1) carrying a hefty price premium and 2) living up to that premium. Edited February 3, 2009 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 the reasons for the SVT Focus and Contour failing pretty much came down to one thing....shitty horsepower embarassed by great chassis'....the Focus SHOULD have been knocking on 200hp, the Contour 250...Focus was a great package with great potential...the Contour never really took off, perhaps the backseat for midgets along with 4 doors did not help either.... Dean, Your drinking the Gatorade again...their was no problem with the SVT Focus, besides it coming out 6 months later then it should have, it had the highest HP at the time and was the top rated car till the SRT4 Neon came around. The SVT Contour was a great car also, just that the platform it was on went out of production after a couple years. They where both highly rated at the time they came out and you shouldn't judge the cars by other cars that came out after it. Its just that there was NO market for the cars when it came to people buying them that weren't Ford fans already. lets not get me started about how shitty my SVT Focus was in the reliability dept..... I like my performance cars, but they really do have limited appeal to people who can't live with their limitations or can't afford them as a second or third car. Outside of the big money Performance cars, who has made it with making Performance cars? Hell the only reason the Mustang has stuck around for so long is the V6 Model and sales to rentals as convertibles...but its "legend" is built off High Performance cars like Shelby, Boss, etc name plates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgande Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 3) Price premium HAS worked with the Cobra/Shelby products AND the Lightning. Therefore, that model should be followed. A flat $15k premium doesn't make sense for a car that can had for that much ore less? you can't ex[ect tp sell a car for $30k and another one for $15k. That just doesn't work. The Terminators and the Lighntings didn't have that much premium. And the only reason why the Shelby does is because of the Shelby name...not the SVT. I believe in profits...no sense in doing anything if you can't make money off it. But SVT needs a long term plan that involves nameplates that are gonna stick around. And it may take a while to position SVT into a point where all its models are successful, not just one or two. But given its current form, it seems like SVT is a two car shop...with a bunch of coulda shoulda wouldas, and that doesn't make much of a division in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefstang Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 SVT products should carry prestige. They will do this by 1) carrying a hefty price premium and 2) living up to that premium. The second part of that is very important. Look at the GT500. Big premium over a Mustang, but snugly placed right in Corvette pricing. If it didn't equal the Vette in affordability, the premium makes no sense. The two cars turn in identical lap times, and as an added bonus, you pick up exclusivity. A premium just for exclusivity makes no sense, but pricing the car with the cars it competes with is understandable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) Dean, Your drinking the Gatorade again...their was no problem with the SVT Focus, besides it coming out 6 months later then it should have, it had the highest HP at the time and was the top rated car till the SRT4 Neon came around. The SVT Contour was a great car also, just that the platform it was on went out of production after a couple years. They where both highly rated at the time they came out and you shouldn't judge the cars by other cars that came out after it. Its just that there was NO market for the cars when it came to people buying them that weren't Ford fans already. lets not get me started about how shitty my SVT Focus was in the reliability dept..... I like my performance cars, but they really do have limited appeal to people who can't live with their limitations or can't afford them as a second or third car. Outside of the big money Performance cars, who has made it with making Performance cars? Hell the only reason the Mustang has stuck around for so long is the V6 Model and sales to rentals as convertibles...but its "legend" is built off High Performance cars like Shelby, Boss, etc name plates. sorry Silver...I'm going to napalm that...at the time the SVT Focus was released it was about 20k, for that money I personally went and bought a Cooper S...the Focus offered NOTHING, its performance did not measure up, and it barely looked any different from the thousands of Zx3's already delivered...if it had had 200 hp I might have re-considered...as it was there was a superior alternative avail from a competitor for pretty much the same $......now....that RS Focus has me salivating...THATS a better effort all around....oh, and its STRONG coffee, lots of it, not Gatorade....LOL! Edited February 3, 2009 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 A flat $15k premium doesn't make sense for a car that can had for that much ore less? you can't ex[ect tp sell a car for $30k and another one for $15k. That just doesn't work. The Terminators and the Lighntings didn't have that much premium. And the only reason why the Shelby does is because of the Shelby name...not the SVT. I believe in profits...no sense in doing anything if you can't make money off it. But SVT needs a long term plan that involves nameplates that are gonna stick around. And it may take a while to position SVT into a point where all its models are successful, not just one or two. But given its current form, it seems like SVT is a two car shop...with a bunch of coulda shoulda wouldas, and that doesn't make much of a division in my book. I edited out the $15k, but the Shelby GT 500 is exactly what I was thinking of. It lists for about $15k more than a Mustang GT. Furthermore, the 5.4L Raptor WILL carry a $15k premium (minimum) over an extended cab 5.4L Finally, only you and a handful of other enthusiasts are lamenting what Ford isn't doing with SVT. The buying public by and large just doesn't care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I edited out the $15k, but the Shelby GT 500 is exactly what I was thinking of. It lists for about $15k more than a Mustang GT. Furthermore, the 5.4L Raptor WILL carry a $15k premium (minimum) over an extended cab 5.4L Finally, only you and a handful of other enthusiasts are lamenting what Ford isn't doing with SVT. The buying public by and large just doesn't care. I have a feeling, SVT or not, we may see a performance version of each lineup....so far Fusion has the SPort ( that car may be a real sleeper ), the SHO in the taurus lineup ( rocket time )...a twin turboed Flex, the Raptor, and we already have the GT500....thats a pretty enviable lineup in my eyes....name another Domestic OR mainstream import that has anything comparable? You basically have to go upmarket, German/ lexus etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefstang Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I edited out the $15k, but the Shelby GT 500 is exactly what I was thinking of. It lists for about $15k more than a Mustang GT. Furthermore, the 5.4L Raptor WILL carry a $15k premium (minimum) over an extended cab 5.4L Finally, only you and a handful of other enthusiasts are lamenting what Ford isn't doing with SVT. The buying public by and large just doesn't care. The buying public isn't aware. Most people haven't heard of SVT lately. The buying public is, however aware of the M cars from Bimmer, the AMGs from Mercedes, and even the SRTs from Dodge. Does everybody care? No, but it builds credibility and image to enthusiasts. Car people. I think there are a few here. I'm not a Jeep fan, but after getting smoked by an SRT8 Grand Cherokee last summer <sigh>, I definitely found a corner of my heart for my friends at MOPAR. Brand imaging. The more the better, I say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 The buying public isn't aware. Most people haven't heard of SVT lately. The buying public is, however aware of the M cars from Bimmer, the AMGs from Mercedes, and even the SRTs from Dodge. Does everybody care? No, but it builds credibility and image to enthusiasts. Car people. I think there are a few here. I'm not a Jeep fan, but after getting smoked by an SRT8 Grand Cherokee last summer <sigh>, I definitely found a corner of my heart for my friends at MOPAR. Brand imaging. The more the better, I say. I'm with these points. :yup: Wouldn't SVT everything though. Focus and Fiesta, naturally. Fusion, Taurus? Maybe one, then the other. Edge would be a decent exercise, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) I'm with these points. :yup: Wouldn't SVT everything though. Focus and Fiesta, naturally. Fusion, Taurus? Maybe one, then the other. Edge would be a decent exercise, I think. Yes, there is a downside to SVT'ing everything: Do you really want to see a $25,000 SVT Fiesta being associated with a $65,000 SVT Mustang GT500KR? It would sort of cheapen the image of the KR in my mind, and in effect cheapen what SVT represents. BMW and Mercedes really don't have this problem with their performance brands. Why? Because even a cheap BMW or Mercedes is perceived to still be pretty darn good. Edited February 3, 2009 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) The buying public isn't aware. Most people haven't heard of SVT lately. The buying public is, however aware of the M cars from Bimmer, the AMGs from Mercedes, and even the SRTs from Dodge. :sigh: Anyone aware of AMG probably also knows about the GT500 and if they don't know about the Raptor they will soon enough and that's my point. People know about these cars and they'll pay a far higher premium for them than they will for SRT models. In fact, the premium paid for the GT500 and Raptor model the premiums paid for AMG products. ----- My point being: SVT is getting AMG premiums, but on products that do NOT carry the SVT name. I do not for a minute believe that an F150 SVT could sell for the same price as an F150 Raptor, and I certainly do not believe that a Mustang SVT would sell for anywhere near the price as the Shelby GT 500. Therefore, to SVT: keep making products that can carry hefty premiums (and be worth those premiums) REGARDLESS of whether or not they carry an SVT badge. Edited February 3, 2009 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildosvt Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 :sigh: Anyone aware of AMG probably also knows about the GT500 and if they don't know about the Raptor they will soon enough and that's my point. People know about these cars and they'll pay a far higher premium for them than they will for SRT models. In fact, the premium paid for the GT500 and Raptor model the premiums paid for AMG products. ----- My point being: SVT is getting AMG premiums, but on products that do NOT carry the SVT name. I do not for a minute believe that an F150 SVT could sell for the same price as an F150 Raptor, and I certainly do not believe that a Mustang SVT would sell for anywhere near the price as the Shelby GT 500. Therefore, to SVT: keep making products that can carry hefty premiums (and be worth those premiums) REGARDLESS of whether or not they carry an SVT badge. But the Raptor is a SVT (look at the front lower control arm). And the GT500 has SVT all over it. (13 times IIRC). They just don't have the buget they had in the past, No advertising/push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefstang Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Yes, there is a downside to SVT'ing everything: Do you really want to see a $25,000 SVT Fiesta being associated with a $65,000 SVT Mustang GT500KR? It would sort of cheapen the image of the KR in my mind, and in effect cheapen what SVT represents. BMW and Mercedes really don't have this problem with their performance brands. Why? Because even a cheap BMW or Mercedes is perceived to still be pretty darn good. There is a huge price gap between the M3, and the M6 as well. Different class of car by the same manufacturer. That's why I think an SVT Focus can absolutely find a market with the GT500KR. A lot of it is brand recognition too. Chrysler naming their V8s "Hemis" was brilliant. Also a fan of the SRT branding. When someone mentions Dodge, those are the products that pop into my mind. Not the Grand Caravan (although I remember seeing some pics here of an SRT Grand Caravan once...). I don't think making more models "cheapens" the brand image, so long as they are all done right. One bad apple and such... Ford now has the platforms, technology, powertrains, and yes... Even styling, to make some amazing performance machines across the board fairly easily. My overall point is that obviously now it's tough to make a business case for a larger performance division, but I don't think that making more great performance vehicles cheapens the brand, regardless of price point... As long as it's done right. <Sigh..> :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron W. Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Ford now has the platforms, technology, powertrains, and yes... Even styling, to make some amazing performance machines across the board fairly easily. But do they have the cash on hand and if so is this really what they want to spend it on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 so is everyone dis-regarding twin turbo Flex's, Taurus's, Mustangs, 265 hp Fusions. off road F-150's???? ANY of those vehicles make the SVT focii and Contour PALE in comparison...and those vehicles DID have the SVT badging.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefstang Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 so is everyone dis-regarding twin turbo Flex's, Taurus's, Mustangs, 265 hp Fusions. off road F-150's???? ANY of those vehicles make the SVT focii and Contour PALE in comparison...and those vehicles DID have the SVT badging.... Exactly. And if the vehicles performance is worthy of it, badge it as an SVT to get recognition out there. Create an itch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Exactly. And if the vehicles performance is worthy of it, badge it as an SVT to get recognition out there. Create an itch... I truley don't think a badge is necessary if the car is CLEARLY different ( ie Raptor )....the only one I think truley fits is the SHO on the Taurus....wonder what they will label the eco flex? FLEX-GON Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I truley don't think a badge is necessary if the car is CLEARLY different ( ie Raptor )....the only one I think truley fits is the SHO on the Taurus....wonder what they will label the eco flex? FLEX-GON E85 can be Corn Flex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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