Ford applies for patent on turbocharged pushrod V8

[Critic]

However, 4-valve motors have twice the valvesprings and therefore twice the pressure on the pushrods

IF just 2 rods were used. Who would ever think of that?

 

Whole quote seems bogus.

 

Most of the time we prefer mechanical roller camshafts. This enables us to run the spring pressures that enable the extra RPM capability of the 4 valve heads. With hydraulics, the springs have to be lightened up to enable the hydraulics to work properly and this cuts into the extra RPM capability.

 

 

http://www.araoengineering.com/

 

http://www.araoengineering.com/Ford/clevelnd.htm

[TomServo92]

IF just 2 rods were used. Who would ever think of that?

 

Whole quote seems bogus.

 

 

 

 

http://www.araoengineering.com/

 

http://www.araoengineering.com/Ford/clevelnd.htm

 

Damn! Beat me to it! I was just about to post this.

[Versa-Tech]

IF just 2 rods were used. Who would ever think of that?

 

Whole quote seems bogus.

That's because it probably is. They put a lot of crap like that on their site. I would presume that it's to throw off would-be copycats :yup:

[Critic]

That's because it probably is. They put a lot of crap like that on their site. I would presume that it's to throw off would-be copycats :yup:

 

No problem.. when you spend a lot of money like that, you want to feel you have an edge or it was worth it.. I don't know much about those heads, but looking at the valves.. it's packed tight. And I tried to imagine a push rod for each valve. in those holes. Do those heads, have water passages in them also? plus bolt holes to tighten them down.. Those valve seats are right up at the walls.

 

All I know is I put on some High performance heads on an 80 Cu. In. engine.. I get about 1 HP, per inch and greater than 1 Ft. lb. of torque for it. also.

 

Got to remember here,, mass production is different than for a drag strip.

 

This is off topic: but somewhat not.. The Atkinson Cycle used on the Escape Hybrid.. when they use an Eco-Boost on that baby, stand back.. You haven't seen mileage numbers yet til that works out, I will say WOW now for when that happens.

[RichardJensen]

I suppose an additional factor is diesel engines run at a significantly lower RPM

[Versa-Tech]

No problem.. when you spend a lot of money like that, you want to feel you have an edge or it was worth it.. I don't know much about those heads, but looking at the valves.. it's packed tight. And I tried to imagine a push rod for each valve. in those holes. Do those heads, have water passages in them also? plus bolt holes to tighten them down.. Those valve seats are right up at the walls.

I have Arao heads on two of my cars. Trust me, they are worth every penny :yup:

 

EDIT: I'm drunk, give me a f*cking break! :lol:

Edited April 7, 2009 by Versa-Tech

[theoldwizard]

... Their proprietary 4-valve OHV design uses patented pushrods made from a ceramic composite pressed into an alloy liner.

DAMN !

 

Then again, I have always wondered how the NASCAR boys can twist past 9 grand for 500 miles (or 500 laps at "The Paperclip"). I know they use tremendous valve seat pressure to keep those solids on the cam, but you got that long skinny thing in the middle there !

[Noah Harbinger]

Why even bother posting his stupidity here? He was banned her for a reason and I don't need to be reminded of how much an idiot he is

 

It's like a car wreck - too horrible to watch, yet who among us can look away?

[jon_the_limey]

I know this is a stupid question, but why not 4-valve pushrod engines that burn gasoline? Especially when EcoBoost works that torque curve. Is OHC cheaper?

 

4-valve diesel engines with pushrods generally require a valve bridge to activate two inlet (or two exhaust) valves at a time. This reduces valvetrain stiffness and increases valvetrain inertia, which has disadvantages for timing control and overall valvetrain forces especially at high speeds. Also to activate a pair of valves at the centreline of the two valves this (kind-off) forces a tandem valve pattern where the pairs of valves are arranged from the front to back inlet, exhaust, inlet, exhaust..... so that the rocker-arms can be either side of the cylinder (without the rocker arms being some even weirder skewed valve actuation like the Hemi engines!) This forces the inlet ports of the engine into a swirl type which is less suitable for a high flowing gasoline type ports, also having the valves like this arrangement makes almost impoossible to put any sort of valve angle which helps put in larger vlaves for the bore size. Then there are the pushrods which take up space and make getting any sort of decent port more difficult, even more difficult in terms of package if one tries to get in a side mounted injector, and especially more difficult considering the gasoline bore needs to be smaller because to really gain advantage of GDI turbo the engine must be downsized. Then there is the fact that if you have pushrod it is more difficult to have independent phasing of the inlet and exhaust cam lobes to really control the gas exchange.

 

Not an exhaustive list but some reasons why for GDI turbo it is preferable to go for DOHC.

[Blue II]

Not to argue, but the point of EcoBoost is to get the torque curve as flat as possible from around 1,500 rpm to 2,000 rpm, so that trying for 5,000-7,000 rpm is not necessary, so pushrod reliability is not a limiting factor.

 

Less efficient? How so?

 

Hurricane 600 lb/ft.

Coyote 400 lb/ft.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Blue II

[Versa-Tech]

Hurricane 600 lb/ft.

Coyote 400 lb/ft.

Wha wha whaaaaat?!

[fordmantpw]

Hurricane 600 lb/ft.

Coyote 400 lb/ft.

 

600 lb/ft from the Hurricane? N/A? EB? SC? More details!!!! :reading:

 

And who were the naysayers saying the Hurricane would be a dog in the Super Duties? I can't wait to see the official numbers released from Ford.

[jpd80]

Hurricane 600 lb/ft.

Coyote 400 lb/ft.

No current naturally aspirated Ford engine is putting out 80 lbft /liter of engine capacity.

 

The fact that Ford Australia is assembling their next V8 from the US parts bin tells me that

the 5.0 4V will not have as much torque as you're quoting.

[fordmantpw]

No current naturally aspirated Ford engine is putting out 80 lbft /liter of engine capacity.

 

Not too many years ago, it could have been said that "no current naturally aspirated Ford engine is putting out 40 lbft /liter of engine capacity."

 

Times change...rumors have been that the 5.0 will be around 365/400 in the F150.

[OHV 16V]

Hurricane 600 lb/ft.

Coyote 400 lb/ft.

 

Finally got the numbers, huh? (I asked you awhile back, remember?)

 

The 400 lb.-ft. is perfectly legit for a NA 5.0-liter with today's technology. Look at other manufacturers who are already doing it...

 

It's the 600 that's got my interest peaked. Is that an NA number, or an EB number? If it's NA, then I must admit that I'm actually a tad worried. Because while it's achievable, to build a 6.2-liter to that point usually puts the torque higher-up in the power band, counterproductive to trucks. Look at the GM, Mopar, & Mercedes AMG motors around that displacement to see what I mean. None makes 600 lb.-ft., but their torque rpms aren't suitable for truck duty.

 

Now, with EB, that seems plausible.

 

Unless, of course, you boys have secretly revived the larger Hurricane and been complete :ninja:s about it...

 

Hmm...:reading:

Edited April 7, 2009 by OHV 16V

[Blue II]

Finally got the numbers, huh? (I asked you awhile back, remember?)

 

The 400 lb.-ft. is perfectly legit for a NA 5.0-liter with today's technology. Look at other manufacturers who are already doing it...

 

It's the 600 that's got my interest peaked. Is that an NA number, or an EB number? If it's NA, then I must admit that I'm actually a tad worried. Because while it's achievable, to build a 6.2-liter to that point usually puts the torque higher-up in the power band, counterproductive to trucks. Look at the GM, Mopar, & Mercedes AMG motors around that displacement to see what I mean. None makes 600 lb.-ft., but their torque rpms aren't suitable for truck duty.

 

Now, with EB, that seems plausible.

 

Unless, of course, you boys have secretly revived the larger Hurricane and been complete :ninja:s about it... Hmm...:reading:

 

 

EB, Looks like you're the only one that remembered. Early yet.

[OHV 16V]

EB, Looks like you're the only one that remembered. Early yet.

 

If I may ask, (and you're feeling inclined), is it safe to say the torque for the Coyote will remain roughly the same, just the horsepower will differ based on application? (F-150 vs. Mustang)

[Versa-Tech]

No current naturally aspirated Ford engine is putting out 80 lbft /liter of engine capacity.

Yeah... that's why they're replacing them! V-T > < Captain Obvious

 

The fact that Ford Australia is assembling their next V8 from the US parts bin tells me that

the 5.0 4V will not have as much torque as you're quoting.

:rolleyes: Yeah, and the fact that my girl has a tight ass tells me that our future kids will probably suffer from chronic claustrophobia! :lol:

[mustangman9494]

say what you will but from a performance angle 4v,s are better than the three at least on the gt mustangs all i can say is on the street the 4v,s devour the three,s anytime and it,s what the perfoemance minded still want and crave!!!!!!! don,t believe?? go to ant junkyard and see if you can find one!! the valve springs on the 4,s are so tiny hard to believe they exert so much pressure we have never seen a problem with valve seats on 4,s so i am not seeing what you are.

[J-150]

Wha wha whaaaaat?!

 

 

Stern or South Park?

[Versa-Tech]

say what you will but from a performance angle 4v,s are better than the three at least on the gt mustangs all i can say is on the street the 4v,s devour the three,s anytime and it,s what the perfoemance minded still want and crave!!!!!!! don,t believe?? go to ant junkyard and see if you can find one!! the valve springs on the 4,s are so tiny hard to believe they exert so much pressure we have never seen a problem with valve seats on 4,s so i am not seeing what you are.

Uhhhh... what?!

 

 

Stern or South Park?

South Park :lol:

[White99GT]

The Duramax and 24V Cummins also use 4V pushrod setups.

[RichardJensen]

I was thinking---wouldn't it be possible to reduce the amount of force required to actuate the valves by raising the cam profile and moving the center pin for the rocker arm closer to the valve/lengthening the pushrod end of the rocker arm? (law of the lever: more distance = less force required)

[blksn8k2]

I was thinking---wouldn't it be possible to reduce the amount of force required to actuate the valves by raising the cam profile and moving the center pin for the rocker arm closer to the valve/lengthening the pushrod end of the rocker arm? (law of the lever: more distance = less force required)

 

You must have been reading about the R07 GM NASCAR engine.

 

The cam is raised in the block to the legal maximum, which permits shorter, stiffer pushrods, while the 60mm cam journals allow a greater base circle for the NASCAR-mandated flat-tappet camshaft. The raised cam also makes room for two rows of integral oil galleys on either side, which supply the piston squirters. (Two more galleys are positioned on the outboard sides of the block.)

 

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_08...erformance.html

[jon_the_limey]

I was thinking---wouldn't it be possible to reduce the amount of force required to actuate the valves by raising the cam profile and moving the center pin for the rocker arm closer to the valve/lengthening the pushrod end of the rocker arm? (law of the lever: more distance = less force required)

 

You would reduce the force back from the valve spring, but to achieve the same valve lift (which is what is required) then the pushrod and tappet would have a larger displacement and hence larger acceleration of the more massive side of rocker arm (i.e tappet and pushrod). F=ma and therefore increase that particular component of the valvetrain contact forces. There is no easy answer as the contact forces are a function of both and it will depend on where it is best to optimise for engine speed.

Edited April 8, 2009 by jon_the_limey