xr7g428 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 This is not about cars at all. This is about reducing CO2 to satisfy the global warming contingent. They could have done this by taxing gasoline, diesel, home heating oil, electricity generated by coal fired plants, or any of dozens of other things. (I am sure they will be back for that later). What this does do is limit the kinds of cars that can be offered for sale. Based on the simple observation that cars meeting the standard today are poor sellers, it is hard to imagine how this will be good for either consumers or the car manufacturers. I suspect that this is the first step of the one two punch. Owing to the lead times associated with new car development, they have to mandate the standard now, and then when they raise the taxes on fuel we will be grateful that they did this today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macattak1 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 I landed a mary once.....I was exagerating with the 90%, although I would guess a majority were NOT born here....just ( irrespective of population overkill and political claptrap ) nic eplace to live......weather rocks.....and remember there are 13 other states involved in the mediation....but lets get this straight....California does NOT sign off on laws for the country....they are agreed on by NUMEROUS factions...its just everyone likes to point the finger...or raise it in some cases....something THIS big HAS to go through congress....are they all californians.... All true, however, there has been a huge concern over lobbying in the last 10 to 20 years. And no other state does it better than CA. Further, CA has two senators like everyone else. But they have a few more in the house if I recall correctly. So that is a lot of lobbying to CA politicians and from CA politicians. Peace and Blessings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) California angst Noah....and ALWAYS seems to come from people that don't live here...jealousy? Yep. I'm jealous. I wish my state had a $24 Billion dollar budget deficit. LINK Edited May 23, 2009 by Pioneer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Yep. I'm jealous. I wish my state had a $24 Billion dollar budget surplus. LINK Don't you mean deficit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Don't you mean deficit? Too many beers during the hockey game. Stupid officials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) This is not about cars at all. This is about reducing CO2 to satisfy the global warming contingent. They could have done this by taxing gasoline, diesel, home heating oil, electricity generated by coal fired plants, or any of dozens of other things. (I am sure they will be back for that later). There's no need for a gas tax. As the oil stockpile is reduced, gas will rise above $3.00/gallon, people are then forced to make choices. What this does do is limit the kinds of cars that can be offered for sale. Based on the simple observation that cars meeting the standard today are poor sellers, it is hard to imagine how this will be good for either consumers or the car manufacturers. No, that's what happens when technology is ignored. Consumer demand force car makers to deliver same size and performance vehicles but the regulations force them to do it with better fuel economy. As discussed elsewhere, the new regs use uncorrected EPA scores, a lot of vehicles do meet the standard already including most F150s. So relax the sky isn't falling. Edited May 23, 2009 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macattak1 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 did some searching/reading/ran some numbers: numbers from Wikipedia/internet source semis average 125,000 miles per year, at average 6 mpg in newer trucks...so 20,833 gallons per year, or 437,493 pounds of co2 per year...218 tons per semi, and exemp from emissions controls. 218 times 10 million estimated trucks, thats over 2 billion tons of CO2 from trucks annually. cars average 15,000 miles per year, at average 37 mpg in new mandate...so 405 gallons per year, or 7864 pounds of co2 per year...3.9 tons per new car per year, with extremely strict emissions controls. 3.9 times 250 million registered cars, thats almost 1 billion tons of CO2 from all the cars annually. old CAFE standard of 27 mpg shifts above numbers to 555 gallons/year, or under 11,000 pounds/year, 5.5 tons/year, times 250 million cars equals over 1.3 billion tons annually... so the stricter standards might save up to 11% of our annual CO2 output- but much bigger room for improvement exists with trucking where an equal percentage could be achieved if just over 1 MPG improvement could be reached- or better yet, a better logistics system to prevent empty trailer return runs- they try to always run loaded, but still get stuck heading home empty occasionally. low tire pressure wastes fuel- cars now have TPMS, trucks do not...something as simple as TPMS might save more than redesigning all the car fleet...how many car tire carcasses have you seen layning along side the road, vs how many semi tires? if a semi blows a tire they dont replace all of them on that axle- but if you dont the slight diameter difference causes a differential action that drags one tire of the pair slightly, but constantly- with many tons on it, it equals a heck of a drag compared to a matched set...TPMS on semis could prevent blowouts in the first place, saving a lot of mpg, and a lot of wasted energy producing tires...or better yet, mandate shifting to the 'supersingle' wheels so tires arent paired anymore- its a weight savings AND a MPG improver- win/win(except ya gotta stop if you lose a tire rather than drag it along spewing cord/rubber for miles). offroad equipment spews more pollution than about any car- except for raw CO2. How much carbon dioxide is put into the air when the annual wildfires eat a million acres or so? maybe adding firebreaks BEFORE the fire, might save more CO2 than all the prius they can build in a decade? not to mention homes/lives... gotta go...babys cryin...cali rules are nuts IMO So how much CO2 is made globally each year? And when will it be enough to wipe us out? Where is that prediction? Is the US close to 100 billion tons per year yet? Then just add China, India, and Russia alone and are we at a Trillion tons yet? Just how many berzillion tons per year do these smarty smart smarts think it will take to eventually wipe us all out? Peace and Blessings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macattak1 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 It's the way we look at the problem, sure our current vehicles will find it difficult to meet the new standards but the same was true in 1975 when manufacturers had 6 an 7 liter V8 as standard in vehicles and a fleet average of 13 mpg. I'm sure those folks though 27.5 mpg average was impossible except with econo boxes. We see the same arguments today, the rules are too hard. manufacturers are forced to think outside the box, new materials, more efficient power trains. What happens if we take that theory and use it else where? Like taxes. They used to complain about those taxes when they were first implemented. That 2% was a killer. But hey, soon they learned how to get around that and work the system. But then 10% was like, "Oh my gosh, the world is ending." But it wasn't really. ... ... ... Then taxes got to 97%. People did not think they could do it, but they did. We will work around it somehow. Then 101%... Yea I know. All melodramatics. But not to those that came 50 years before us, or those 50 years before them,... Peace and Blessings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Good call Macattack1, This should be seen as an opportunity to improve technology and efficiency, not as an impediment. Look at the people in the late 1970s, they thought performance vehicles were gone forever and drivers were sentenced to an eternity of econo boxes but by the mid 1980s thinks had changed for the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xr7g428 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) JPD80 you are an optimist. If they threw you in prison you would consider it a chance to catch up on your reading, and a chance to explore your sexual identity. We didn't get a chance to have any input in this. Americans hate the concept of having regulatory BS shoved down our throats. Even a rudimentary knowledge of economics tells us that higher prices are met with reduced demand. Less volume again turns into higher prices. In a time where the automakers have to throw money on the hood of EVERY vehicle, it is just stunning that you or any one else would see this as a good thing. News flash: Chryco is Bankrupt. GM will probably declare bankruptcy on the 31st. Ford is the best of the lot, and they are not predicted to make a profit for at least two years. Did you know the largest purchaser of Steel in the world is GM? Did you know the largest purchased of Information Technology products and services in the world is GM? And that just scratches the surface. So sure this is a great time to saddle them with regulatory hurdles... Im sure this will be great for the rest of the economy. Maybe, just maybe the time to launch a bunch of feel good social engineering might not be right at the beginning of the 2nd Great Depression.... go figure. the sky might not be falling, but this is not a great time to be tearing holes in the fabric of the universe so you can achieve some sort of warm and fuzzy feeling about being all green and stuff. Edited May 23, 2009 by xr7g428 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford4v429 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 serious question how many cars are produced in California? I'd thought the Tesla was it, what did they build 15 last year? I'm sorry for my 'bashing California' post- Ive lived there when I was a kid, and visited a few times- absolutely beautiful place: but no way would I personally want to live there simply because of the regulatory stuff they push. I dont think every man woman and child in the middle east are evil either, but theres enough terrorists there I wouldnt want to deal with their mess...in California IMO the environmentalists are 'green terrorists'...now theyve wennt from burning luxury homes and SUVS(already mentioned the added mess that created for the environment) to lobbying for anything 'green', no mattter how expensive, no matter how small if any impact it will have. There are a million ways to wast energy/produce co2 att a hefty commercial profit, but IMO the environmentalists all think if we drive nothing but prius' all will be fine and life on earth will continue forever- dig into the numbers, overall worldwide our cars are about like a dripping faucet adding to niagra falls. Californians aint seen the devastation to the families in the midwest- take a look at unemployment in Michigan and Ohio alone- we're stuck smack dab in the middle of the auto plant belt, and its ugly, getting uglier everyday. the government restructuring mandated cutting 21,000 jobs at gm alone- plus probably 5x that number in support industries...now they are gonna mandate the new epa regs way ahead of schedule, further messing with the auto industry...do we have ANY say in any of it, hell no. what weve got is areas in ohio with 65% of all homesin some areas sitting vacant owned buy the banks that caused this mess...did we have any say about the banks trillion dollar gift? hell no. Our government is so obviously in the pockets of the banks and special interest groups, yet far too many folks are 'american enough' to refuse to accept we are being brainwashed by special interest groups controlling our government, that they refuse to believe anything besides whats said by our wonderful leaders. how many folks were pumping their fists when we went after hussein to get his wmd? I was, most of us were...revenge for 911...but then truth comes out it was all false intel(fabricated?) and now its like grasping for reasons to justify starting it after the fact...yeah, hussein was a madman, yes a lot of crap was wrong over there, and they wanted to end us if they could...but that was NOT why we went over. obamas comment that his hybrid was still sitting in chicago was great...how many hybrids will ford need to build to offset the carbon from one trip on airforce one with its follower C5A galaxy full of entourage vehicles? it will NEVER make a difference, yet we refuse to believe it. we are still probably one of the most wasteful countries on eart, but have sowed the seeds in china and elsewhere to insure thats gonna change- problem is our special interests wont affect ANYTHING over there, and whaever we do here to cut that dripping faucet at niagra falls ant gonna help if they dig a few more falls...yet cali 'green regulations' are going to be pushed upon all of us- certainly not 'creating jobs' to offset the jobs being cut...like the administrations 'we'll cut the deficit in half within 4 years' as being a great thing...hell if you burn thru 5 trillion in 3 years, who couldnt 'reduce it'...it is rediculous. we have no say, yet every single day new great ideas and promises get dumped on us. IMO if the government truly dave a damn about our emissions, they would offer tax credits for retrofitting existing models to high mpg...charge more for the hybrid, but offset it with tax rebate...its less painful that way for all concerned. offer tax incentives to upfit older cars- theres still a boatload of v10 expys out there...if the funds were there, SURELY a ecoboost retrofit to a 50,000 dollar truck could be done for 10-15 grand tthat would double its mileage... too much time on the computer, gotta go do something constructive, this gets too depressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) JPD80 you are an optimist. If they threw you in prison you would consider it a chance to catch up on your reading, and a chance to explore your sexual identity. I'm good as long as you're the one biting the pillow.... OK, I'm gonna do something positive here, let's narrow down your anxiety a bit. Which vehicles are you concerned about and what is their corrected highway mpg, it's on the sticker? Now, whatever that mileage is, you can add 30% to it. Now tell me how far away from the 2016 average it is. Obama's new regulations sound harsh to get the green vote because it plays with numbers. As for the rest of your post, think about this, Mulally says that Ford will make money on every vehicle it sells. That signals that their cash bleed and restructuring costs are nearing completion in North America. Neither GM or Chrysler has really begun this process yet, they're waiting for someone else to carry them. I hope the American public are so offenced by that attitude they send them to financial oblivion. Edited May 23, 2009 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macattak1 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 QUOTE (xr7g428 @ May 23 2009, 05:06 AM) * JPD80 you are an optimist. If they threw you in prison you would consider it a chance to catch up on your reading, and a chance to explore your sexual identity. That was a pretty good one. I bet he's been waiting years for just the perfect opportunity to use it! Peace and Blessings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 serious question how many cars are produced in California? NUUMI plant can produce around 500k cars and trucks a year. http://www.nummi.com/assembling.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 serious question how many cars are produced in California? I'd thought the Tesla was it, what did they build 15 last year? I'm sorry for my 'bashing California' post- Ive lived there when I was a kid, and visited a few times- absolutely beautiful place: but no way would I personally want to live there simply because of the regulatory stuff they push. I dont think every man woman and child in the middle east are evil either, but theres enough terrorists there I wouldnt want to deal with their mess...in California IMO the environmentalists are 'green terrorists'...now theyve wennt from burning luxury homes and SUVS(already mentioned the added mess that created for the environment) to lobbying for anything 'green', no mattter how expensive, no matter how small if any impact it will have. There are a million ways to wast energy/produce co2 att a hefty commercial profit, but IMO the environmentalists all think if we drive nothing but prius' all will be fine and life on earth will continue forever- dig into the numbers, overall worldwide our cars are about like a dripping faucet adding to niagra falls. Californians aint seen the devastation to the families in the midwest- take a look at unemployment in Michigan and Ohio alone- we're stuck smack dab in the middle of the auto plant belt, and its ugly, getting uglier everyday. the government restructuring mandated cutting 21,000 jobs at gm alone- plus probably 5x that number in support industries...now they are gonna mandate the new epa regs way ahead of schedule, further messing with the auto industry...do we have ANY say in any of it, hell no. what weve got is areas in ohio with 65% of all homesin some areas sitting vacant owned buy the banks that caused this mess...did we have any say about the banks trillion dollar gift? hell no. Our government is so obviously in the pockets of the banks and special interest groups, yet far too many folks are 'american enough' to refuse to accept we are being brainwashed by special interest groups controlling our government, that they refuse to believe anything besides whats said by our wonderful leaders. how many folks were pumping their fists when we went after hussein to get his wmd? I was, most of us were...revenge for 911...but then truth comes out it was all false intel(fabricated?) and now its like grasping for reasons to justify starting it after the fact...yeah, hussein was a madman, yes a lot of crap was wrong over there, and they wanted to end us if they could...but that was NOT why we went over. obamas comment that his hybrid was still sitting in chicago was great...how many hybrids will ford need to build to offset the carbon from one trip on airforce one with its follower C5A galaxy full of entourage vehicles? it will NEVER make a difference, yet we refuse to believe it. we are still probably one of the most wasteful countries on eart, but have sowed the seeds in china and elsewhere to insure thats gonna change- problem is our special interests wont affect ANYTHING over there, and whaever we do here to cut that dripping faucet at niagra falls ant gonna help if they dig a few more falls...yet cali 'green regulations' are going to be pushed upon all of us- certainly not 'creating jobs' to offset the jobs being cut...like the administrations 'we'll cut the deficit in half within 4 years' as being a great thing...hell if you burn thru 5 trillion in 3 years, who couldnt 'reduce it'...it is rediculous. we have no say, yet every single day new great ideas and promises get dumped on us. IMO if the government truly dave a damn about our emissions, they would offer tax credits for retrofitting existing models to high mpg...charge more for the hybrid, but offset it with tax rebate...its less painful that way for all concerned. offer tax incentives to upfit older cars- theres still a boatload of v10 expys out there...if the funds were there, SURELY a ecoboost retrofit to a 50,000 dollar truck could be done for 10-15 grand tthat would double its mileage... too much time on the computer, gotta go do something constructive, this gets too depressing. Paragraphs, commas, capitalization, and periods would do a lot to make that post more readable. If you practice, it will be like second nature. Californians aint seen the devastation to the families in the midwest There are certainly many small towns that are probably devastated a lot worse that statewide statistics would imply. But California's unemployment rate, at 11% is 4th worst in the country, and we likewise have many small communities that have been devastated as well. Many communities in the Central Valley face unemployment rates over 25%. The cause of their troubles? Drought. This year, the state water project will deliver only 40% of the amount requested (which, thanks to some late sprint storms, is much better than the 20% that was initially predicted). As a result, easily half the cropland in the central valley will lie fallow, leaving farm workers, processing plants, and truck drivers without work. The average annual rainfall received in California and the Colorado River Basin has decreased over the last 30 years, to the point where it is expected that in a few decades, our main water sources will not be able to deliver their requested amounts, even in good years. Many believe this is due to global warming (though some say that 1850-1970 was an unusually wet period in California), and climate change projections point to a worsening trend. Maybe that will give you a little background in to one of the reasons Californians take global warming seriously. -- Side note: San Diego's water district recently proposed building a desalination plant with a capacity of up to 150 million gallons per day. That, in conjunction with another large desalination plant that has finally cleared the "green tape" and will start construction soon, will meet about a third of San Diego's water needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford4v429 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 NUUMI plant can produce around 500k cars and trucks a year. http://www.nummi.com/assembling.php did a quick check, found a neat site...california has 3 billion dollars in auto wages, michigan and ohio 22 billion dollars(had anyways) http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-1...-by-state_N.htm went out and mowed the 5 acres of yard on the ford/new holland diesel (no emissions controls that I know of), then cleaned up the catalytic converterless (yet 20 mpg) 65 galaxie and went for a short drive, the kids want to have a fire tonight, that will burn maybe 20 pounds of wood, and produce God knows how much CO2, should I feel guilty for producing CO2- probably, and I do- enough I keep our vehicles in tune, tires properly inflated, and try not to waste more than necessary, but I know that what I do today aint gonna make a impact compared to Chinese coal fired power plants that are sprouting up monthly. if we ALL just became hermits living in Japanese sized houses, not wasting fuel to mow lawns that aint needed, riding bikes to work painted with environmentally friendly watercolor paints and with chains lubed with vegetable oil, it wont change the fact the biggest polluters on earth are gonna get exponentially bigger elsewhere...and all the regulations in the world OVER HERE wont change a thing OVER THERE. its a worldwide problem, but again, my biggest worry is about the simple FACT(do some searches- everyone agrees) that in 10-15 years the midwest will be OUT of water, destroying farmland that produces the food we all need to survive...and a lot of which we ship all over the world to feed areas without water. Screw the EPA mandate, they NEED to get some wind powered/solar powered ways to desalinate water in mass quantities ASAP. By the time they acknowledge that theres another dustbowl looming it will be too late. Aint much on this great planet that can turn green without water...and that problem is both more real and more emminent than the CO2 which will happen courtesy of China wether we detour to 39 mpg or not on small passenger vehicles only. the green army needs to look at the real water issues first...the one 50 million gallon a day plant going into longbeach is a start, but why aint it powered by offshore windfarm or tidal power? the power to run the high pressure pumps comes from somewhere- somewhere that creates more CO2 a day than the next decade of hybrids will- and that crap is IN Californias backyard, where THEY should be pushing hard for it, and I shouldnt even be insuating anything about it from my place in OHIO...how would they like it if OHIO mandated they had to produce all their states water 'in state'? heck it would bankrupt them...can you see Ohio telling California how to run their states businesses? the best- still painful- way to deal with fuel consumption in the USA and elsewhere is to tax the crap out of it to where we all waste as little as possible...its that way in europe and without government mandates they seem to tend to prefer tiny 1 litre cars...high fuel costs encourage all transport(even commercial) to either raise prices to cover the cost or improve their efficiency...in bad economic times, raising prices is self defeating, so I stilll think its the least painful...but now-in this wrecked economy- aint the time to create 5.00 a gallon gas to 'fix' everything either...but watch- one terrorist mess, or a refinery fire, or a hurricane, or ben barnanke getting the flu might push our crazy gas price rollercoaster right back up there again, but if it happens now, its gonna be worldwide depression time- if we completely collapse, the rest will follow shortly. gotta go collect some wood to convert to CO2, its still legal here in Ohio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 The average annual rainfall received in California and the Colorado River Basin has decreased over the last 30 years, to the point where it is expected that in a few decades, our main water sources will not be able to deliver their requested amounts, even in good years. And people continue to move there. I'm not discounting anyone's misery in California, but it seems to me a lot of these problems are man-made, and not in the grand, global, too much CO2 sense, but in the small, local, 'let's conquer mother nature with technology' sense. As with Katrina & New Orleans, I hope you can see the irony of blaming a nebulous and poorly understood 'man-made' problem like global warming, when the real problems are just as man-made, but they hit much closer to home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xr7g428 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 And people continue to move there. I'm not discounting anyone's misery in California, but it seems to me a lot of these problems are man-made, and not in the grand, global, too much CO2 sense, but in the small, local, 'let's conquer mother nature with technology' sense. As with Katrina & New Orleans, I hope you can see the irony of blaming a nebulous and poorly understood 'man-made' problem like global warming, when the real problems are just as man-made, but they hit much closer to home. Richard, that is post of the year material. I can't tell you how many of the anecdotal stories of "global warming" effects are more readily explained by the more common heat island effect. Or water shortages that don't consider the changes made to the water shed. For example, there is a great deal of noise about the level of Lake Meade. Many note that the amount of water coming into the lake is less than it used to be when it was created in the '30s. What they fail to mention is that there are now a number of other reservoirs above Meade, including the giant lake Powell, that also was not there, or of Lake Mohave that lies below Mead...(among others). News isn't news, unless it is sensational. So the creation of sensational headlines becomes more profitable than reporting the facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 The SW is indeed drier than it used to be, but certain climatologists attribute that to temperature changes in the Indian & Pacific Oceans that began before industrialization. -- It just baffles me that people will budget out every drop of water and expect that they'll get the same amount next year and the year after that, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 It just baffles me that people will budget out every drop of water and expect that they'll get the same amount next year and the year after that, etc. It's easy for some of my countrymen, none this year equals none next year and the year after. You get that with droughts that last over ten years and light sprinkles result in green drought. Until recently, the dam levels feeding our East coast Aussie state capitols were down to near 20% capacity for four to five years and things were looking pretty grim. Fortunately it rained enough earlier this year to get the dams up near 40%. Of course, Australia is much drier place than even your South West but maybe Australia's climate pattern is an example of what the US South West can expect in future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 John Steinbeck wrote about that mentality in the beginning of East of Eden. I've seen the water levels behind this state's 4 dams drop to record lows twice, only to fill up a couple years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 For example, there is a great deal of noise about the level of Lake Meade. Many note that the amount of water coming into the lake is less than it used to be when it was created in the '30s. What they fail to mention is that there are now a number of other reservoirs above Meade, including the giant lake Powell, that also was not there, or of Lake Mohave that lies below Mead...(among others). Trust me, they know about the lakes above Meade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 (edited) easy there JPD....magnesium? 80k 6 cylinder Mustang....lightening a car may even be more prohibitively expensive than more efficient drivetrains.... We have had it for years. The 2004- F-150 has a magnesium radiator support assembly. Because the magnesium corrodes quickly when in contact with steel and an electrolyte (salt water) called galvanic corrosion, Ford uses aluminum spacers between the magnesuim and steel parts. You can see the spacers if you look, Ford issued recomended handling procedures for magnesium on these trucks. For their trouble the '04 magnesium radiator support was 12 lbs lighter than the previous steel part. Aluminum was also used extensively in the '04 and newer F-150. The hood and front lower suspension control arms are two of the best known examples. And everyone thinks the '04- F-150s are too heavy imagine their weight if Ford hadn't used these materials. Edited May 24, 2009 by F250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 From a state that is $24B in the red and getting deeper in debt every day. Maybe they should spend more time cleaning their own house. Exactly. Damn state is going bankrupt and issuing IOUs, looking for places to cut spending how about CARB. Oh hell no that would be unthinkable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Too many beers during the hockey game. Stupid officials. I have the same issues watching my lakers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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