Mark B. Morrow Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 We must remember that some people (and governments) do tend to buy vaporware. And, do police need purpose built, hardened, and even armored vehicles? are they an occupying force? I guess it depends on the neighborhood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Oh, and to add, I'm honestly surprised they're (Carbon Motors) still around. They won't be after Obama and the gang in Washington get to them next, especially with the bullshit CAFE standards they are proposing. In fact, I think I might have spotted a prototype police car that the politicans will propose: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 They won't be after Obama and the gang in Washington get to them next, especially with the bullshit CAFE standards they are proposing. If they only sell to government agencies, they are exempt from CAFE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I guess it depends on the neighborhood. I rode with a cop friend of mine through some neighborhoods in which I wish we had been in an armoured car.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 If they only sell to government agencies, they are exempt from CAFE. I knew I should have stuck that photo in the mlhm thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 The state of Louisiana just inked a deal with someone to produce cars in the city of Monroe. They have refused to name the manufacturer, but, it sounds kind of like a decent match. Given their stated order length and the suggested capacity of the production facility that is part of the deal, this may be where Carbon Motors intends to produce this vehicle. There are two nearby big auto producction facilities (GM in Shreveport for Colorad/H3 and Nissan in North Mississippi for Quest, trucks and minivans) that have good rail links to Monroe, so suppliers are within manageable reach as well. This may not be vaproware much longer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) The state of Louisiana just inked a deal with someone to produce cars in the city of Monroe. Well, New Brunswick inked a deal with Bricklin back in the 70s---and his 'Safety Car' wasn't much more than vaporware, by the time it was all said and done. Edited June 16, 2009 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocheese Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Hmmm. Methinks I'll be seeing more Taurus police cars on the road in a decade than "refurbished" Crown Victorias. Me thinks if a suitable replacement for the Vic isn't in Ford's plans, I'll be seeing more Charger police cars then Taurus' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) Me thinks if a suitable replacement for the Vic isn't in Ford's plans, I'll be seeing more Charger police cars then Taurus' oh yeah, lets buy from a Domestic in BK that we arent even sure the Dealership bidding will be around next month...are Fiat badges optional?....behold the brand new FIDGE! Edited June 16, 2009 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 oh yeah, lets buy from a Domestic in BK that we arent even sure the Dealership bidding will be around next month...are Fiat badges optional?....behold the brand new FIDGE! I like that name, the Fidge. Better copyright it quickly, Dean. The Taurus can offer what the vast majority of PDs need in a car - a lot of room, huge trunk, AWD if needed, extensive dealer network for support, and a range of engines, from good performance with good economy (base 3.5) to high performance (3.5 Ecoboost). Add in reliability and reasonable cost, and you have the makings of a great package. A limited production, purpose built vehicle will always be a more expensive option. Much more expensive. Also, the only way this Carbon motors thing will be able to get around CAFE will be with the small volume involved. Vehicles sold to state and local governments are not broken out of manufacturers fleets, so there is no government vehicle exemption. But there is (at least I think it is still in there) exemptions for manufacturers of fewer than 60K units per year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Was out at the UPS pickup station the other day. Saw a Dodge Caravan delivery vehicle..... with a UPS logo over the Dodge badge. The antique Aerostar next to it still had the Ford badges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Simplw question: Do upfitters, like say the manufacturers of Ambulance bodies or Fire Trucks, have to meet EPA guidelines for their fleet? If Carbon Motors receives frames/chasis from another company that are just waiting for a body/bodywork to be put on them, do they have to meet EPA guidelines either? If they were the ones to ink the deal for the facility in Monroe, unless they are going to assemble the chasis by hand, there's no place nearby that can make modern unibodies or crash worthy vehicle frames in the volumes they need. They are either going to have to buy chasis/frames from one of the big 3 to start from as a base, or, they are going to be doing a lot of work the hard way, especially for a startup. IMHO, since the CV is now fleet only, and the TC and GM are on the way out, what's to stop someone from redoing the body without having any consideration to the retail market and instead catering to the LEO needs more directly instead? I can imagine that there are some areas of the current body that are somewhat compromised between retail and fleet needs and that doing away with those compromises could create a more compelling vehicle. I'm sure Ford would be happy to produce the frame and whatever other accessories are needed for an upfitter just like they do with the trucks as long as the price is right. I'm sure the CAW would prefer to have that job than no job. Seems win win to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I like that name, the Fidge. Better copyright it quickly, Dean. The Taurus can offer what the vast majority of PDs need in a car - a lot of room, huge trunk, AWD if needed, extensive dealer network for support, and a range of engines, from good performance with good economy (base 3.5) to high performance (3.5 Ecoboost). Add in reliability and reasonable cost, and you have the makings of a great package. A limited production, purpose built vehicle will always be a more expensive option. Much more expensive. Also, the only way this Carbon motors thing will be able to get around CAFE will be with the small volume involved. Vehicles sold to state and local governments are not broken out of manufacturers fleets, so there is no government vehicle exemption. But there is (at least I think it is still in there) exemptions for manufacturers of fewer than 60K units per year. biggest hurdle is $...municipalities are CHEAP....and state budgets are ALL getting cut back...lessee, 3 crown Vics with a proven track record that the maintenence guys are wholley familiar with, or roll the dice on ONE Carbon Tech...hmm, one makes fiscal sense to the bean counters.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Was out at the UPS pickup station the other day. Saw a Dodge Caravan delivery vehicle..... with a UPS logo over the Dodge badge. The antique Aerostar next to it still had the Ford badges. watch out for a BUNCH of Transit Connects......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Simplw question: Do upfitters, like say the manufacturers of Ambulance bodies or Fire Trucks, have to meet EPA guidelines for their fleet? If Carbon Motors receives frames/chasis from another company that are just waiting for a body/bodywork to be put on them, do they have to meet EPA guidelines either? If they were the ones to ink the deal for the facility in Monroe, unless they are going to assemble the chasis by hand, there's no place nearby that can make modern unibodies or crash worthy vehicle frames in the volumes they need. They are either going to have to buy chasis/frames from one of the big 3 to start from as a base, or, they are going to be doing a lot of work the hard way, especially for a startup. IMHO, since the CV is now fleet only, and the TC and GM are on the way out, what's to stop someone from redoing the body without having any consideration to the retail market and instead catering to the LEO needs more directly instead? I can imagine that there are some areas of the current body that are somewhat compromised between retail and fleet needs and that doing away with those compromises could create a more compelling vehicle. I'm sure Ford would be happy to produce the frame and whatever other accessories are needed for an upfitter just like they do with the trucks as long as the price is right. I'm sure the CAW would prefer to have that job than no job. Seems win win to me. Nothing above Class 1 has to meet CAFE--gov't or commercial duty. Therefore ambulances (even private ambulances) don't need to worry about CAFE. Powertrain emissions are regulated, but that's a fairly simple deal. And I could see Ford selling a frame & powertrain to an aftermarket upfitter, but the upfitter would have to go to the expense of CAFE compliance--unless they were planning on selling strictly to gov't agencies. The question is whether any upfitter would be able to compete with a major mfr. on price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) Looks like the Louisanna plant is not Carbon. Just another startup car builder wanting govt. funding. On commercial chassis, the chassis (which is usually classified as an incomplete vehicle) must meet all applicable emissions, noise, and other standards that apply to that class of vehicle. The upfitter only has to get involved in the regulatory process if he compromises any of the emissions, noise, or safety systems of the chassis. A good example is motorhomes. When Ford supplies a commercial stripped chassis to a motorhome builder, that chassis meets all federal emissions, noise, and safety standards that apply. The safety standards mostly apply to braking systems and tires & wheels. Cab and chassis is a different thing, it is a complete vehicle as it leaves the manufacturer. It has all mandated equipment as it leaves the factory, and all the upfitter does is mount the equipment (box, auxiliary systems, etc.). Any changes to the systems of the cab and chassis (moving/remounting/ changing lights, fuel filler connections, fuel tanks, etc.) must comply with applicable federal standards. Most ambulance upfits use a cab and chassis. Currently for upfitted automobiles (stretch limos, hearses, etc) they count against the manufacturers CAFE score as they leave the automakers factory, not in the upfitted form as long as they have a VIN from the original manufacturer. If a manufacturer sells an incomplete or partial vehicle (say a body shell, or car without a drivetrain) to a firm that then completes the vehicle and assigns and affixes its own VIN, the firm that assigns the VIN is responsible for CAFE compliance. I think there are some exemptions for low volume producers. Edited June 18, 2009 by lfeg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) I'll predict this, that there will be more of a market for rebuilding/refurbishing Crown Vics after they are discontinued than there will ever be for the E7.....or a D3 Taurus PI. At $4,500 a pop, a lot of panthers may fall to scrappage as people trade up to fuel efficient cars. Edited June 18, 2009 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 At $4,500 a pop, a lot of panthers may fall to scrappage as people trade up to fuel efficient cars. Not mine. Sorry, I'll just buy them up cheap and keep rehabilitating them. A lot of FWD shit made in the 1980's up needs to go. Plain and simple they are nothing but disposable garbage anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Not mine. Sorry, I'll just buy them up cheap and keep rehabilitating them. A lot of FWD shit made in the 1980's up needs to go. Plain and simple they are nothing but disposable garbage anyway. And a lot of RWD shit made before the 1980's needs to go (or, thankfully, already has gone) also. That door swings both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) The Taurus can offer what the vast majority of PDs need in a car - a lot of room, huge trunk, AWD if needed, extensive dealer network for support, and a range of engines, from good performance with good economy (base 3.5) to high performance (3.5 Ecoboost). Add in reliability and reasonable cost, and you have the makings of a great package. The WImpala has offered almost all of that for nearly a decade and look how it's caught on. AM, I was having a very similar discussion with someone the other day. Since the CV is still BOF, what's to stop a company from coming along and just taking old, worn out CVs, building new bodies and interiors for them, perhaps an updated, replacement drivetrain, and an upgraded suspension? YEah, it'd be expensive in low volume, but wouldn't break the bank like engineering a completely new vehicle would. When ford decides to discontinue CV production, you could purchase the rights to the frame and perhaps even the tooling and make your own. That way, municipalities could have diesel police cars or whatever other kind of strangeness they'd like. You'd likely be able to charge a bit less for these than any competing comparable vehicle could go for. Already was done to an extent. They were refurbishing Caprices for years after they were discontinued in 1996. The gradual improvements of the CVPI after 1996 eroded any benefit (I think) to continuing to refurb the B-bodies since the Panther was a suitable replacement. That will not be the case here since there will be no suitable replacement for the Panther once it is gone, so I think a refurb market for Panthers could continue on for quite a while. The Charger and the Tahoe will be the Panther's replacement, not the D3 Taurus or the WImpala. Edited June 20, 2009 by Armada Master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 A lot of FWD shit made in the 1980's up needs to go. Plain and simple they are nothing but disposable garbage anyway. Yeah, I'll pay that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Charger and Tahoe? Does the Expedition have a shot there? I see quite a few in use with the USBP. I also see lots of the current explorer in use with other agencies as well, though not so much as an enforcement vehicle. The Suburban also gets a lot of use by the USBP. Of course, they liked the Magnum too. I wonder if a LHD version of the falcon would be desirable by PDs if it was imported as a stripped down police cruiser? As has been said, its already being used as such elsewhere. How expensive would that work out to be per unit? Would the improved overall package make the extra expense over the CV worth it? I can't imagine it being more expensive to maintain than the carbon motors venture, and the lower consumption numbers may make it more desirable than arguably less efficient SUVs. I ask the above not as someone wanting any excuse for the falcon to be imported, but, just looking for a way for Ford to add more revenue. I'm sure FordAU would love extra volume on that line. I'm sure PDs would appreciate the finer points of the car. It wouldn't hurt resale here since its not offered in retail. It wouldn't hurt resale in Aus since they're here and not there. I see the only hurtles being making a LHD version for export, federalizing it, the cost of shipping, currency valuation differences, and the support infrastructure for it here as it will have many parts that are unique to it. Looking at its competition, it really would only have to best the Charger in its class, which I understand isn't overly difficult to do. This wouldn't be happening tomorrow of course, we still have a few years on the panthers. This gives them time to address all of those issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Charger and Tahoe? Does the Expedition have a shot there? I see quite a few in use with the USBP. I also see lots of the current explorer in use with other agencies as well, though not so much as an enforcement vehicle. The Suburban also gets a lot of use by the USBP. Of course, they liked the Magnum too. Local PDs here use Expeditions, Explorers (as "Public Safety" vehicles), CVs, Chargers, Durangos , and I'm sure there's more that I can't remember right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Local PDs here use Expeditions, Explorers (as "Public Safety" vehicles), CVs, Chargers, Durangos , and I'm sure there's more that I can't remember right now. I've seen several unmarked Silverados here lately for traffic enforcement. I remember when it used to be easy to spot a cop car. :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 I've seen several unmarked Silverados here lately for traffic enforcement. I remember when it used to be easy to spot a cop car. :unsure: Oh, I've seen a '97-'03 MY undercover F-150 before. My neighbor has an undercover Impala and had an undercover 300 (chrysler) before that. I forgot the local PDs use Super Duties as well to tow the horse and boat trailers for the mounted and marine divisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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