theoldwizard Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Detroit’s Golden Opportunity ...two major issues that could derail any comeback: Detroit’s command-and-control ethos, and its loss of engineering talent. Suppliers can not do it all, especially as many of them are cutting back or filing Chapter 11. (Visteon is but a shell of what it was 2 or 3 years ago.) Adding more to overworked engineers in the US and EU is not a good recipe. Most of the "still employed" engineers I talk to say they are doing "2 or 3 jobs". Yes, somethings get dropped on the floor. If their supervisor doesn't notice, it just may never happen ! The really sad thing is, I don't know if Detroit will be able to attract "world class talent" in a couple more years ? The Midwest is not the best climate in the country, automotive engineering wages and benefits are now just "average" (at best) compared to many other engineering jobs, and most of America has already written off American car manufactures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Hopefully, the auto industry will attract a new breed of "green" engineer, who specialize in hybrids and electronics. But you're right. Engineers who, in the past, would have gladly come to Detroit and work for the Detroit 3, are now looking elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) Gotta say l love the bit in the link "bean counter specials" the very last Escort Ford made was a very good example of this, it got slated in Europe for it. Status of an Engineer in the UK is just higher than garbage collector or dog turd retriever nobody wants to be one, most aspire to be a talentless pop star like Britney Spears that can't sing spends most of her time on stage singing mime it to me just one more time, banking, drug dealing, football player, A-list celeb, chat show host or just be a professional unemployed sponger claiming as much off the government for free without having to work for it. Sadly an Engineer is the very last job most young Brits would choose to do these days. Britain is a bankrupt third world country sad to say lets hope you don't end up being like us. Edited June 25, 2009 by Ford Jellymoulds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Gotta say l love the bit in the link "bean counter specials" the very last Escort Ford made was a very good example of this, it got slated in Europe for it. Status of an Engineer in the UK is just higher than garbage collector or dog turd retriever nobody wants to be one, most aspire to be a talentless pop star like Britney Spears that can't sing spends most of her time on stage singing mime it to me just one more time, banking, drug dealing, football player, A-list celeb, chat show host or just be a professional unemployed sponger claiming as much off the government for free without having to work for it. Sadly an Engineer is the very last job most young Brits would choose to do these days. Britain is a bankrupt third world country sad to say lets hope you don't end up being like us. Britain doesn't know what debit is.. How does $11.5 trillion sound? Here is something to ponder. The USA National Debt has continued to increase an average of $3.79 billion per day since September 28, 2007! National debit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGolden Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 It's everywhere that there is a shortage of engineers. We get them at my work out of school and they suck. Most Mechanicals have no clue what a screw driver is, but they got straight A's...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 It's everywhere that there is a shortage of engineers. We get them at my work out of school and they suck. Most Mechanicals have no clue what a screw driver is, but they got straight A's...... This is also a very good point ! In the "old days" (post WWII up until about 10-15 years ago), it was a "given" that every mechanical engineer knew the basic inner workings of a gasoline engine, through first hand experience. Many actually understood the concept of a sun/planetary gear set. I'm not so certain these days ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Unions, bad management, and Mihigans high taxes forcing other businesses out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 And yet Ford's quality is better now than it's ever been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Selby Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 We get them at my work out of school and they suck. Most Mechanicals have no clue what a screw driver is, but they got straight A's...... You are 100% correct. A few years back GE sent a young engineer to our shop for some hands-on so he could understand what it was like to work on the engines he was helping to engineer. One of our guys had to teach him how to use a ratchet. I would not have believed it had I not seen it for myself. I then understood how maintenance unfriendly designs make it into production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White99GT Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 And yet Ford's quality is better now than it's ever been. Quality and overall product. Ford has a more competitive line up right now and within the next year or two than they have had in a very long time. I'm guessing some engineers were nothing more than dead weight, because their absence sure hasn't shown in the the product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 I'm guessing some engineers were nothing more than dead weight, because their absence sure hasn't shown in the the product. With the move toward "One Ford" and a push toward parts and platform commonality, we should see a need for even fewer engineers moving forward. I think the best the engineering staff currently in Dearborn can hope for is that they get enough global projects pushed their way to keep their jobs over the guys employed by Ford in other regions of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) The engineering and business culture is very different in the US than competing countries like Germany and Japan. And most have a skewed view of what makes a good innovative car company. Who is more innovative, a car company that can produce an average sedan with excellent quality and features for the money, or the car company with an expensive low volume engineering marvel? It's one thing to produce an engineering masterpiece, it's another thing entirely to make that available to a larger audience. Edited June 25, 2009 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Who is more innovative, a car company that can produce an average sedan with excellent quality and features for the money, or the car company with an expensive low volume engineering marvel? Ideally, I would like Ford to be both of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 This is a major concern, particularly for Ford. From what I understand (maybe theoldwizard can verify) Ford has mde deeper cuts to it's engineering ranks than GM, and relies on vendors more and more. I have been told that Ecoboost was done completely by a vendor (Bosch?) and the only design work Ford actually did was integrating it into vehicle platforms. The Scorpion diesel supposedly was done by Peugeot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 When you consider the mandate to increase carryover content and shared content among all platforms, and the mandate for a reduced global parts count, with reduced global use of suppliers, engineering cuts are necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 I mean, shoot, engineers are 'assembly line workers' just like the UAW guys on the floor. Only differences are a quieter work environment and worse benefits. If Ford has no business keeping UAW workers they don't need, well................................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 One Ford extends to consolidation of products and engineering resources. Things are hectic now because North America is moving to global use platforms and restructuring some of those to suit the North american market. One can no longer assume work will be done in house by Detroit,you will see more suppliers co developing products so they can be used by others in the market. This pattern is nothing new and will continue: what's next, shared power trains & electrics? Probably already happening in some areas - look at Ford GM Transmission J/V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Good points. Certainly there will be consolidation in engineering, but I expect that to also mean components engineered by Ford of Europe would be used in Asia and N.A. as an example. I don't see Toyota or G.M. turning over major projects completely to vendors. An example might be the Volt. G.M. did most of the work on the drivetrain and the battery in-house. Of course the battery will be supplied by a vendor (I think that deal was just inked) but it is a G.M. design. That 6 speed automatic transaxle that Ford and G.M. are going to use is not a joint venture. Ford is buying a G.M. Powertrain design. I don't like this trend, I think it is going too far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Well it's like this: How much of EcoBoost could Ford do in the first place? They don't do turbos, they don't do direct injectors, so what could they have done aside from coordination of/supervision of one or more suppliers? Furthermore, Bosch did a lot of the work with Ford funds, which means it's Ford's technology. Not unlike the ControlTrac & Intelligent AWD systems that BW developed, pitched to Ford, and which are Ford exclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 (edited) Good points. Certainly there will be consolidation in engineering, but I expect that to also mean components engineered by Ford of Europe would be used in Asia and N.A. as an example. I don't see Toyota or G.M. turning over major projects completely to vendors. An example might be the Volt. G.M. did most of the work on the drivetrain and the battery in-house. Of course the battery will be supplied by a vendor (I think that deal was just inked) but it is a G.M. design. That 6 speed automatic transaxle that Ford and G.M. are going to use is not a joint venture. Ford is buying a G.M. Powertrain design. I don't like this trend, I think it is going too far. If the 6-speed auto was solely GM intellectual property, then Ford would be paying a licence fee but since nearly all FWD automatic vehicle from Focus to Flex will have versions, I doubt that very much. There is no way Ford would hand GM that much coin and power over its products.... It is volume product and both companies saved an absolute fortune working to gether. Edited June 26, 2009 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 To go further with that thought.............. If Ford was just "buying them from GM," then why did Ford have them out much sooner.................. didn't have the problems with them, that GM has had, and have had their version garner more praise in the marketplace?? It sounds to me like mary believes way too many rumors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 To go further with that thought.............. If Ford was just "buying them from GM," then why did Ford have them out much sooner.................. didn't have the problems with them, that GM has had, and have had their version garner more praise in the marketplace?? It sounds to me like mary believes way too many rumors. It is true GM did a lot of the early work on the original transmission design but I bet you Ford did just as much development getting the thing right and reliable. As far as I can see, it was a Joint venture and both companies invested around $350 million each in manufacturing infrastructure. I woud say from that, both benefited as equals.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted June 26, 2009 Author Share Posted June 26, 2009 And yet Ford's quality is better now than it's ever been. If you plotted a chart of number of engineering employees versus age, the highest point would be 45-50 and moving down the age scale the quantity will drop off quick. Many departments have no one under 30. Does this sound "healthy" ? It also helps when none of the plants are operating at near capacity speeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted June 26, 2009 Author Share Posted June 26, 2009 This is a major concern, particularly for Ford. From what I understand (maybe theoldwizard can verify) Ford has mde deeper cuts to it's engineering ranks than GM, ... I don't know for certain, but I had lunch with a friend who worked for Ford as sort of an administrative assistant and is now doing the same contract job at GM. She says, "Gm is following right in Ford footsteps, but they are several steps behind. They still need to cut a lot of lower, middle and upper level engineering and marketing management !" ...and relies on vendors more and more. I have been told that Ecoboost was done completely by a vendor (Bosch?) and the only design work Ford actually did was integrating it into vehicle platforms. Partially correct. Ford did about 25-33% of the software. They were responsible for all wiring, fuel and air plumbing as well as exhaust. Last word was powertrain management saying that it took a lot more work (on Ford's part) to get the V6 EcoBoost out the door then they had planned ! The Scorpion diesel supposedly was done by Peugeot. Ford has been partnered with Peugeot for many years now and all of Ford's current European diesel are joint design with Peugeot. The Scorpion (and the 4.4L) were design primarily by Ford US engineers, with some concepts borrowed from the 4 cylinder Puma (but not the Lion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted June 26, 2009 Author Share Posted June 26, 2009 I mean, shoot, engineers are 'assembly line workers' just like the UAW guys on the floor. Only differences are a quieter work environment and worse benefits. Thank you for making one of my points ! How is Ford (US) going to attract the "best and the brightest" engineers when they find out that after 4 years of college, the guy on the line at MAP make more than they do after 10 hours of OT and gets better benefits. And the engineer is told he is "expected" to work 45-50 hours/week and then his boss will think about asking for OT pay ! Average (at best) in, average out ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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