Clunker sales misrepresented by the government.

[Stng1996]

http://www.autolinedetroit.tv/daily/?p=5496

[timmm55]

Just ask yourself:

Why would the government be concerned about what type of powertrains were sold?

 

In the C4C program they were concerned about MPGs and the environmental footprint. So they more concerned about hybids and 4 cylinder sales that say, Fusion sales in general (3.0 V6, 3.5 V6 Sport Editions being the lower MPG vehicles, and 4WD vehicles get worse gas mileage) . How record keeping (for whatever reason} can be considered "fraudulent" is laughable. Industry sales may be more concerned by nameplate, but they also keep records for separate body styles and powertrain configurations among many other things.

 

It was not a "get Detroit back on it's feet program." The Government can give 2 of the Big Three a bailout as a national measure, but the government cannot force it's citizens to only buy American Cars (it's not Democratic!).

Edited August 30, 2009 by timmm55

[jpd80]

C4C was always intended as a stimulus package for new vehicle sales, the fuel economy angle

was a secondary benefit to justify to get funding approved in the first place.

 

It will be more interesting to see what dealers and car makers do from here on without C4C sales.

[timmm55]

C4C was always intended as a stimulus package for new vehicle sales, the fuel economy angle

was a secondary benefit to justify to get funding approved in the first place.

 

It will be more interesting to see what dealers and car makers do from here on without C4C sales.

 

I agree it was a stimulus package, but not as narrowly defined as to Chrysler/GM/Ford vehicles, or even "American made" because 1) it's hard to define and

2) as much I'd like to see it only for US cars, it seems un-democratic.

a) in the long run if had forced US cars only it would have the imports loyalists saying "see they almost have to give them away!"

 

IMHO it was a much for American Car Dealers! They'd been pretty hard hit, no matter what they sold....and they certainly are part of the US economy.

 

 

Again the tracking was very specific for engine type/chassis configuration, not models.

So far it looks like Ford did pretty well.

[rmc523]

Is Autoline still shown on Speed? If not, where on TV (if at all) is it shown, or is it now online only?

[jpd80]

Perhaps a new round of incentives disguised as higher trade ins,

a bit like what Chrysler and its dealers were offering during C4C?

[mackinaw]

Is Autoline still shown on Speed? If not, where on TV (if at all) is it shown, or is it now online only?

 

To my knowledge, it's only on local Detroit TV (the public station). The internet is the best bet for the rest of us.

[rmc523]

To my knowledge, it's only on local Detroit TV (the public station). The internet is the best bet for the rest of us.

 

Hmm, well it was on SPEED(TV) for a while, but I do seem to remember reading something about that ending....

[mackinaw]

Hmm, well it was on SPEED(TV) for a while, but I do seem to remember reading something about that ending....

 

SPEED TV dropped Autoline several months back.

[rmc523]

SPEED TV dropped Autoline several months back.

 

Hmm, well I always liked watching it - I do remember it being at an odd time though, so perhaps that's why nobody watched it (I assume that's why they dropped it).

[tzach]

Just ask yourself:

Why would the government be concerned about what type of powertrains were sold?

 

In the C4C program they were concerned about MPGs and the environmental footprint. So they more concerned about hybids and 4 cylinder sales that say, Fusion sales in general (3.0 V6, 3.5 V6 Sport Editions being the lower MPG vehicles, and 4WD vehicles get worse gas mileage) . How record keeping (for whatever reason} can be considered "fraudulent" is laughable. Industry sales may be more concerned by nameplate, but they also keep records for separate body styles and powertrain configurations among many other things.

 

It was not a "get Detroit back on it's feet program." The Government can give 2 of the Big Three a bailout as a national measure, but the government cannot force it's citizens to only buy American Cars (it's not Democratic!).

 

 

I look at it this way, how did the dealers report the sales. Do they say they sold x number of cars and then break it down into sub-categories as far 2 and 4wd and engine size. If so then when all of these numbers from the dealers were tallied it would seem to be more work to break the numbers down the way they did. So why would that be done? However if the dealers reported them seperately then you can see the list ending up the way it did. But what possible reason would the sales be reported that way. The Camry is the best selling car but they don't report the 4 and 6 cyl seperately do they. It just looks like someone wanted the list to look a certain way, put a spin on it if you will. Noone I think will argue that spin is a big part of politics.

[Mark B. Morrow]

Is Autoline still shown on Speed? If not, where on TV (if at all) is it shown, or is it now online only?

 

 

I just get it on line. It's usually pretty good.

[WillSD]

I look at it this way, how did the dealers report the sales. Do they say they sold x number of cars and then break it down into sub-categories as far 2 and 4wd and engine size. If so then when all of these numbers from the dealers were tallied it would seem to be more work to break the numbers down the way they did. So why would that be done? However if the dealers reported them seperately then you can see the list ending up the way it did. But what possible reason would the sales be reported that way. The Camry is the best selling car but they don't report the 4 and 6 cyl seperately do they. It just looks like someone wanted the list to look a certain way, put a spin on it if you will. Noone I think will argue that spin is a big part of politics.

 

Reporting the sale to Ford consists of the VIN, date of sale, customer information and type of sale (retail, lease, fleet, commercial, etc...). The type of sale is broken down to very specific classes of sales. There are 26 retail sale classifications and 10 fleet sale classifications.

 

Generating an invoice (ie voucher) from the DOT/NHTSA required specific drivetrain information (FWD vs RWD vs AWD, 4x2 vs 4x4, engine displacement, transmission, GVWR) for both the vehicle sold and the trade in. I don't know how they are summarizing the specific Category 3 truck transactions since the drop down menu's never contained the correct information.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

The U.S. Department of Transportation reported that the top-10 vehicles bought under the program were almost all subcompact cars, led by the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic.

 

What pisses me of big time is the Japanese are benefiting all around the planet from everybody elses cash for clunkers program. Toyota are the biggest beneficiaries with 133,000 sales of the 700,000 C4C in the USA.

 

Japanese top 10 best selling cars are err in Japan, are all Japanese every day, every month, every year.

They write their rules to suit Japanese cars, tax rules are written to makes sure Big 3 big cars are more or less excluded.

 

127.77 million Japanese car buying consumers are giving Chrysler, Ford & GM the one figured salute when it comes to buying American cars and that pisses me of bigtime.

 

In a sharp contrast Ford do bother to sell into a small country like the UK with just a piss poor 60 million consumers, Ford are No1 here in both in C4C and sales and we are Fords biggest market in Europe.

 

How many Chrysler, Ford & GM cars were sold under Japanese C4C - ZERO

 

US C4C

1. Toyota Corolla

2. Honda Civic

3. Toyota Camry

4. Ford Focus FWD

5. Hyundai Elantra

6. Nissan Versa

7. Toyota Prius

8. Honda Accord

9. Honda Fit

10. Ford Escape FWD (What No AWD?)

 

Toyota 19.4%

GM 17.6%

Ford 14.4%

Honda 13.0%

Nissan 8.7%

Hyundai 7.2%

Chrysler 6.6%

Kia 4.3%

 

 

 

I rest my case, my Lord.

 

127.77 million Japanese consumers are taking the piss, Obama needs to sort them out.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Ford Jellymoulds

[svtenthusiast]

The U.S. Department of Transportation reported that the top-10 vehicles bought under the program were almost all subcompact cars, led by the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic.

 

What pisses me of big time is the Japanese are benefiting all around the planet from everybody elses cash for clunkers program. Toyota are the biggest beneficiaries with 133,000 sales of the 700,000 C4C in the USA.

 

Japanese top 10 best selling cars are err in Japan, are all Japanese every day, every month, every year.

They write their rules to suit Japanese cars, tax rules are written to makes sure Big 3 big cars are more or less excluded.

 

127.77 million Japanese car buying consumers are giving Chrysler, Ford & GM the one figured salute when it comes to buying American cars and that pisses me of bigtime.

 

In a sharp contrast Ford do bother to sell into a small country like the UK with just a piss poor 60 million consumers, Ford are No1 here in both in C4C and sales and we are Fords biggest market in Europe.

 

How many Chrysler, Ford & GM cars were sold under Japanese C4C - ZERO

 

US C4C

1. Toyota Corolla

2. Honda Civic

3. Toyota Camry

4. Ford Focus FWD

5. Hyundai Elantra

6. Nissan Versa

7. Toyota Prius

8. Honda Accord

9. Honda Fit

10. Ford Escape FWD (What No AWD?)

 

Toyota 19.4%

GM 17.6%

Ford 14.4%

Honda 13.0%

Nissan 8.7%

Hyundai 7.2%

Chrysler 6.6%

Kia 4.3%

 

 

 

I rest my case, my Lord.

 

127.77 million Japanese consumers are taking the piss, Obama needs to sort them out.

 

 

That's a big AMEN on that one.....my thoughts exactly. C4C should of been written for use on US cars only. I don't support foreign cars, so why should my tax dollars be saying I do????????

Edited August 31, 2009 by svtenthusiast

[xr7g428]

If C$C was really a stimulus, it would have been designed very differently.

 

Stimulus Bill"

2. The most money would have gone for vehicles with the most local content, and therefore generate the most benefit.

 

3. No vehicles would have been crushed. The used cars would generate additional transactions and created further stimulus for used car dealers.

 

4. Trade ins would not have to "Qualify". A sale is a sale.

 

What we got was an environmental program sold to the public as an economic stimulus package. I predict that we will see shortly that what really happened was a massive disruption of the market. In the long term all we did was pull forward sales that were going to happen any way, at great additional cost. In the mean time, the cost of used cars is all ready rising.

[jpd80]

That's a big AMEN on that one.....my thoughts exactly. C4C should of been written for use on US cars only. I don't support foreign cars, so why should my tax dollars be saying I do????????

Because the $3 billion went to dealers not car companies.

[Deanh]

Because the $3 billion went to dealers not car companies.

oh, beleive me, the manufacturers made out/ will make out like bandits as well.....next wholesale dealers WILL be ordering more inventory than normal to fill empty lots.....

[jpd80]

oh, beleive me, the manufacturers made out/ will make out like bandits as well.....next wholesale dealers WILL be ordering more inventory than normal to fill empty lots.....

Maybe so but, the $3 billion originally earmarked for those poor bankers was at least diverted to

people who spend their money in the community. I see that as a big win for the economy and

does more to get businesses going than giving it to the soul less devils that caused all of this.

[marksboss]

Just ask yourself:

Why would the government be concerned about what type of powertrains were sold?

 

In the C4C program they were concerned about MPGs and the environmental footprint. So they more concerned about hybids and 4 cylinder sales that say, Fusion sales in general (3.0 V6, 3.5 V6 Sport Editions being the lower MPG vehicles, and 4WD vehicles get worse gas mileage) . How record keeping (for whatever reason} can be considered "fraudulent" is laughable. Industry sales may be more concerned by nameplate, but they also keep records for separate body styles and powertrain configurations among many other things.

 

It was not a "get Detroit back on it's feet program." The Government can give 2 of the Big Three a bailout as a national measure, but the government cannot force it's citizens to only buy American Cars (it's not Democratic!).

 

 

C4C was/is not a stimulus program. It was a "Green" initiative meant to pull guzzlers/polluters off the road.

[jpd80]

If they spent $30 billion or maybe $50 billion I might agree with you but removing

at best 750,000 gas guzzlers in a fleet of 260 million vehicles will make a difference?

Fuel economy limits was just smoke and mirrors to get funding through Congress and Senate.

 

Nope, it was all about giving a business sector a much needed shot in the arm.

IMO, the money was better bang for bucks than anything returned from the banks.

 

LINK

For $3 billion, the 32-day cash-for-clunkers program is looking increasingly like an effective stimulus bargain.

 

Here's the impact so far:

 

• The Commerce Department said Friday that consumer spending rose 0.2% in July, noting that purchases of new vehicles and auto parts, driven by the stimulus, "more than accounted for the increase." Given that the clunkers program launched July 24, the impact could be greater in August.

 

 

• Experts are forecasting that August auto sales, to be reported Tuesday, will top 1 million. That could drive the seasonally adjusted annual selling rate -- the quick way to compare month-to-month performance -- to between 13 million and 15.8 million vehicles. That would be impressive because the adjusted annual selling rate each month has sagged below 11 million since October.

 

• The program also boosted tax revenue, dealership advertising and put more income in the pockets of dealership employees. A variety of related businesses -- recyclers, dismantlers, tow truck operators and scrap metal dealers -- also will be busier in the months ahead as they dispose of the trade-in clunkers, liquidating their usable parts.

Edited September 1, 2009 by jpd80

[Noah Harbinger]

C4C was/is not a stimulus program. It was a "Green" initiative meant to pull guzzlers/polluters off the road.

 

It was a greenwashed stimulus.

[timmm55]

If they spent $30 billion or maybe $50 billion I might agree with you but removing

at best 750,000 gas guzzlers in a fleet of 260 million vehicles will make a difference?

Fuel economy limits was just smoke and mirrors to get funding through Congress and Senate.

 

Nope, it was all about giving a business sector a much needed shot in the arm.

IMO, the money was better bang for bucks than anything returned from the banks.

 

I agree 100%

[Ford Jellymoulds]

That's a big AMEN on that one.....my thoughts exactly. C4C should of been written for use on US cars only. I don't support foreign cars, so why should my tax dollars be saying I do????????

 

They should write US C4C rules in a way than only benefits the big 3.

 

Any country that buys less than 700 vehicles from Chrysler-Ford-GM (all three combined) a month in their country, with a population of over 125 million, that sell over 70,000 units a month (Toyota 174,000, Honda 106,000, Nissan 71,000 last months numbers) in the US, will be not entitled to be part of, and be excluded from using the US C4C program. Obama could put the spotlight on US free trade, and Japans locked door car trade by doing so, by saying we will still let you sell here but in 100,000s every month but closed doors in your country will mean closed doors for our C4C program.

 

It would only end up hitting Honda, Toyota & Nissan, it would also put a massive spotlight on how many big three cars the 127.77 million Japanese consumers are buying in Japan. It might highlight, wake up the rest of the worlds car industry on how the FREELOADERS from Japan are getting a free ride on everybody's C4C program world wide at the US taxpayers expense.

 

This then would have then extended the C4C program in the US for the big 3 for another few months and so helping them get through this tough period in time, and made it tough for FREELOADERS that ride on everybody elses C4C program.

 

Something smells a bit off when 127.77 million Japanese consumers brought only 620 big three cars last month, whilst the Japanese sold 351,000 Honda Nissan Toyota cars last month. Some folk on BON are happy with that saying if American consumer wants Japanese cars let them have them, l am not.

 

No way should Toyota have been allowed been aloud to benefit from the 133,000 SALE they got from US C4C paid for by the US taxpayer or LEACH, FREELOAD off anybody elses C4C programs when they are operating a closed door.

 

Japans has 127.77 million consumers (Over double the size of the UK's population of 61 million which is Fords biggest market in Europe that Ford do bother to sell into) The Japanese consumer shuns any car thats not Japanese, Japanese top 10 best selling cars every day, every month & every year are Japanese.

 

Japans top 10

Following are the 10 best-selling models in April-September 2008 with maker names and sales volumes in units:

 

Model Maker Sales

1. Wagon R Suzuki 96,075

2. Fit Honda 85,430

3. Move Daihatsu 82,778

4. Tanto Daihatsu 81,496

5. Corolla Toyota 69,201

6. Vitz Toyota 57,513

7. Crown Toyota 42,602

8. Mira Daihatsu 40,535

9. Life Honda 39,296

10.Palette Suzuki 37,206

LINK

Ford were the biggest US seller in Japan last month with 352 sales, 127.77

MILLION Japanese consumers are taking the piss.

 

Obama said he would take action against those that don't operate an open free market. Somebody needs to have a quiet word in his ear.

 

I am not anti-Japanese, just don't like the way they operate. They want their cake & eat it, you don't get so much as a crumb back from them. They are the worlds biggest obese leach making fat $$$ from everybody's C4C program worldwide.

 

127.77 million Japanese consumers & their automakers are taking the piss.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Ford Jellymoulds

[Stng1996]

The way that Edmunds counted sales shows a very different story from the government's numbers. In its report, Ford captured three of the top four positions. The Toyota Corolla, which is at the top of the government's list, falls to number five on Edmunds' list behind the F-150, which didn't even make the government's Top Ten. The Chevy Silverado didn't make the government's Top Ten either, but it's number eight with Edmunds.

 

 

 

Top Clunker Sales According to DOT

 

1. Toyota Corolla

2. Honda Civic

3. Toyota Camry

4. Ford Focus FWD

5. Hyundai Elantra

6. Nissan Versa

7. Toyota Prius

8. Honda Accord

9. Honda Fit

10. Ford Escape FWD

 

Top Clunker Sales According to Edmunds

 

1. Ford Focus

2. Ford Escape

3. Honda Civic

4. Ford F-150

5. Toyota Corolla

6. Toyota Camry

7. Honda CR-V

8. Chevrolet Silverado

9. Hyundai Elantra

10. Honda Accord

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/01/autolin...h-john-mcelroy/