grbeck Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 You can't prove cause and effect. How do you know a person was heterosexual and became homosexual due to some abuse? Yet, you try and do it with this example: We know the difference between men and women is biological at the chromosome level. And the primary difference between men and women (other than the obvious physical differences) is sexual preference. Therefore sexual preference must be biological. Somewhere along the line 10% of the population has a biological anomaly that causes an opposite sexual preference. There are more differences between men and women than sexual preferences - thinking patterns, the way they approach problem solving and level of pain tolerance are a few. But that doesn't prove that differences in sexual preferences among members of the SAME sex is also the result of biological factors, as well. If abuse or molestation causes heterosexuals to become homosexuals then the opposite should also be possible - homosexuals could become heterosexuals. And I don't hear about that happening. Believe what you want but you're ignoring the obvious scientific explanation. Actually, there are cases of this happening. When New York City opened its first school for gay high school students in the mid-1980s, several students who initially enrolled later withdrew, and the explanation they offered was that they were not gay, but thought that they were, because they had never addressed the after affects of being molested. And you don't hear about homosexuals becoming heterosexuals because you don't want to, based on your reaction in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 So sexual preference is biological, except when it's not? Only if the cause was not genetic but simply a result of other things that are gender specific like hormones, and that has been proven not to be the case. I don't understand why you persist in lumping sexual preference together with rape. Rape is not a sexual crime - and even if it was it's almost always heterosexual. Rape is a crime of violence and control. I would put pedophiles in the same category as homosexuality from the standpoint of it being a biological problem. I believe pedophiles are born that way and they never change. That's why we have sex offender laws. You don't "cure" a pedophile from being attracted to children. You simply prevent them from acting on their urges. Some potential pedophiles have those urges but never act on them. Just like an alcoholic - you don't suddenly stop being an alcoholic, you just learn to manage it. My problem with your arguments is that you're basing it on what people tell you about their sexuality. After all, there is no test to confirm it one way or the other. If someone says they were straight but are now gay - you don't know if they were really straight before or if they were just trying to conform to society and fooling themselves in the process. I'll admit there could be rare cases where abuse or some other factor could alter a person's sexual preference - a mental problem could change just about anything. However, that does not mean that the majority of homosexuals suffer from that as well. It's obvious you can't see past your anecdotal experiences and accept scientific evidence to the contrary. So I'm done trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 (edited) So sexual preference is biological, except when it's not? Only if the cause was not genetic but simply a result of other things that are gender specific like hormones, and that has been proven not to be the case. I don't understand why you persist in lumping sexual preference together with rape. Rape is not a sexual crime - and even if it was it's almost always heterosexual. Rape is a crime of violence and control. You're the one making the claim that sexual preferences are based solely on biological urges, not me. I'm carrying this claim to one possible conclusion. You may find it helpful to keep that straight. And the idea that rape is solely a crime of violence and control is nonsense. If that were the case, the criminal would simply lock up the victim (control) and beat them (violence). The sex act moves the offense into another realm; it becomes a form of sexual expression (for the perpetrator, not the victim). I would put pedophiles in the same category as homosexuality from the standpoint of it being a biological problem. I believe pedophiles are born that way and they never change. That's why we have sex offender laws. You don't "cure" a pedophile from being attracted to children. You simply prevent them from acting on their urges. Some potential pedophiles have those urges but never act on them.Just like an alcoholic - you don't suddenly stop being an alcoholic, you just learn to manage it. My problem with your arguments is that you're basing it on what people tell you about their sexuality. After all, there is no test to confirm it one way or the other. If someone says they were straight but are now gay - you don't know if they were really straight before or if they were just trying to conform to society and fooling themselves in the process. The question is what happens when pedophiles act out on those urges. If they do, and are found guilty, then we must consider the possibility of a sentence of life without parole if they can never really be cured. As for an alcoholic - yes, we don't care if the alcoholic sits in his house all day and polishes off a case of vodka. We become concerned when he gets behind the wheel with a .20 blood alcohol content level. How we punish alcoholics or anyone else who does this (even if they are caught before hurting anyone) is a legitimate topic of discussion. Your problem is with the two examples I cited is it doesn't conform to your preconceived notions, so you reject it out of hand, instead of approaching it with an open mind. And if there is no test to confirm it one way or another, that cuts both ways, doesn't it? By the way, the one may I referred to is HIV positive, and he was never a drug user or a hemophiliac. Want to guess how he got the HIV virus? The logical conclusion is that he was having unprotected sex with a man (given that he didn't have a girlfriend, and was not seeing women at the time). Or is that STILL not enough proof? It's obvious you can't see past your anecdotal experiences and accept scientific evidence to the contrary. So I'm done trying. What "scientific" evidence? Regurgitating politically correct statements, combined with your opinions, does not constitute scientific evidence. It constitutes your opinion. I'm offering an alternative to YOUR OPINION that sexual preferences stem solely from biological factors, which you have said in several posts on this thread alone. Incidentally, even many researchers who had once accepted that sexuality is solely determined by biological factors are moving away from that view, and are now saying it its likely based on a mixture of nature and nurture. Edited September 16, 2009 by grbeck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versa-Tech Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 I actually have no idea if God creates homosexuals or if it is 100% environment, or what not? Regardless, God is clear on sin. Really, have you spoke to him lately. As far as I am concerned, God hasn't been clear since he disappeared 2,000 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Really, have you spoke to him lately. As far as I am concerned, God hasn't been clear since he disappeared 2,000 years ago. hell Versa....thats cut and paste material there....regardless of my own beleifs thats pretty awesome.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted September 16, 2009 Author Share Posted September 16, 2009 Really, have you spoke to him lately. As far as I am concerned, God hasn't been clear since he disappeared 2,000 years ago. For us Jews it was a lot longer ago than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Like Fox Mulder used to say, "When you talk to God, that's praying. When God talks to you, that's schizophrenia". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versa-Tech Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 For us Jews it was a lot longer ago than that. What do you mean? You got the promised land, didn't you? Israel is quite the paradise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 What do you mean? You got the promised land, didn't you? Israel is quite the paradise. just ask the Palestinians..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macattak1 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Like Fox Mulder used to say, "When you talk to God, that's praying. When God talks to you, that's schizophrenia". Exactly. And how come these voices people hear never tell them to do nice things like "Go mow your neighbor's lawn!", "Go volunteer at the library!", "Go pick up trash city wide!"??? Peace and Blessings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versa-Tech Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Exactly. And how come these voices people hear never tell them to do nice things like "Go mow your neighbor's lawn!", "Go volunteer at the library!", "Go pick up trash city wide!"??? Peace and Blessings Holy shit. Macattak just denied god's will. My work is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenhawkings Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 wow a republican in a sex scandal, and it isn't even with a member of the same sex! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versa-Tech Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 wow a republican in a sex scandal, and it isn't even with a member of the same sex! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaZor Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Holy shit. Macattak just denied god's will. My work is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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