The_Shadow1963 Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 "The rear seat is where a lot of the action takes place." Ah, youth... :happy feet: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Once they figure out where to put all the electrons they'll need to power those motors. I hear they have electrons in China all the time........general electrons.........need coffee..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) I hear they have electrons in China all the time........general electrons.........need coffee..... That was . . . . .not funny deanh. I saw the post about the boosted 3.9 V8 and that is very interesting to me. I would like to see that. Now as for the debate about making Mustang smaller than it currently is. Let's all try to remember that the orginal idea of the Mustang was to make a small, affordable sports coupe. When the orginal Mustang came out in 65 it was considered a small car. By comparison to the cars of that era it was a small car. It was in fact a compact car by the standards of that era. That was the whole idea, small, lightweight, fun to drive, affordable. Over the decades since then, cars across the automotive spectrum have gotten smaller (trucks is another issue). Yet even as sedans and other cars were getting collectively smaller the Mustang and Camaro / Firebird did not. This was because they had a following and that following demanded that those cars not change. They liked them the way they were, they didn't want the cars to change, not in size, not in configuration. So even though they were regarded as small cars in 65 and 67, because they didn't change with the times they are by all accounts rather large cars today. Even the "new" Camaro and Challenger are pretty large cars in keeping with their heritage. If, however, Mustang had remained true to it's original idea more than to its original configuration we would right now be looking at Mustangs the size of say a Focus coupe, or a Civic coupe, because those are the current iteration of what constitutes a small compact car in this country. So, the truth of the matter is (IMO) Deanh is actually a more true Mustang enthusiast than most of the rest of you because he wants the tweaked out Focus. Now the Focus is FWD though. I would submit that if Ford was truely remaining faithful to the orginal Mustang "idea" then we would be lookng at a RWD Focus size car with maybe a "boosted 3.9" for instance. Now that would be interesting wouldn't it. But would it sell? That's the real question. Edited November 9, 2009 by BlackHorse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 So, the truth of the matter is (IMO) Deanh is actually a more true Mustang enthusiast than most of the rest of you because he wants the tweaked out Focus. By that logic, only those who speak Anglo Saxon can be called true speakers of English. William Shakespeare, because he did not compose in the language of Bede, was no master of English. Ernest Hemingway, because he did not compose in the language of Bede, was no master of English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 That was . . . . .not funny deanh. I saw the post about the boosted 3.9 V8 and that is very interesting to me. I would like to see that. Now as for the debate about making Mustang smaller than it currently is. Let's all try to remember that the orginal idea of the Mustang was to make a small, affordable sports coupe. When the orginal Mustang came out in 65 it was considered a small car. By comparison to the cars of that era it was a small car. It was in fact a compact car by the standards of that era. That was the whole idea, small, lightweight, fun to drive, affordable. Over the decades since then, cars across the automotive spectrum have gotten smaller (trucks is another issue). Yet even as sedans and other cars were getting collectively smaller the Mustang and Camaro / Firebird did not. This was because they had a following and that following demanded that those cars not change. They liked them the way they were, they didn't want the cars to change, not in size, not in configuration. So even though they were regarded as small cars in 65 and 67, because they didn't change with the times they are by all accounts rather large cars today. Even the "new" Camaro and Challenger are pretty large cars in keeping with their heritage. If, however, Mustang had remained true to it's original idea more than to its original configuration we would right now be looking at Mustangs the size of say a Focus coupe, or a Civic coupe, because those are the current iteration of what constitutes a small compact car in this country. So, the truth of the matter is (IMO) Deanh is actually a more true Mustang enthusiast than most of the rest of you because he wants the tweaked out Focus. Now the Focus is FWD though. I would submit that if Ford was truely remaining faithful to the orginal Mustang "idea" then we would be lookng at a RWD Focus size car with maybe a "boosted 3.9" for instance. Now that would be interesting wouldn't it. But would it sell? That's the real question. would be a beast for sure. I feel for the designers though, through the years they have had certain "safety" issues force fed down their throats, bumbers, intrusion bars, rollover etc etc....all which are a designers nightmare. So some of the size, and MOST DEFINITELY weight, can be pinned on those facts, and now bumper heights are being made "pedestrian" friendly. I mean where will it end??????? We all know in terms of performance in a straight line at least, its all about power to weight, but regardless weight comes with its own issues regardless. The potential for two cars, both with the theoretical 50/50 perfest weight distribution, but one weighing say 400-500 lbs more is intriguing to say the least...but simple physics alone ( all else being equal ) give the advbantage to the lighter "more tossable car"....and other benefits include pote tially better MPG's....weight= the holy grail....and obviously Ford ( based on articles such as the one Richard posted ) is FULLY aware of that fact....As for size, maybe THAT will be adressed in a revamped chassis....GRWD anyone?....As for the FWD/ RWD argument, I'm fine personally with either, but the Stang should REMAIN, and I would think will remain RWD....boosted 3.9 in a Focus sized package????wow, perhaps thats overkill, the RS right now with Revo and 300 odd is pretty awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) William Shakespeare, because he did not compose in the language of Bede, was no master of English. Ernest Hemingway, because he did not compose in the language of Bede, was no master of English. Richard Jensen, because he is the moderator on a website, is no decider of who's opinion is right or wrong. Richard, you know I don't care about or listen to anything that you say. You waste your time trying to goad me into an argument everytime I post something or an opinion about something. I would have thought that after my not acknowledging many of your attempts at quick witted insults you would have figured that out. Guess not. So let me be clear. You don't matter. Frankly I'd rather interact with guys like Deanh and Nick. I'm just letting you know so that for future reference when I don't respond to your little quips, you'll know why. Edited November 9, 2009 by BlackHorse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Let's look at what you're saying for a minute. Looking at C1 Focus Vs Mustang: The C1 Focus, a 4 cylinder 3-door coupe with 103" wheelbase weighs in at just under 2750 lb. The difference in weight between the 4-cylinder engine and the V8 is pretty close to 250 lb so before you do any body stiffening, styling and changing to rear wheel drive, the car is already up to 3000 lb or roughly 400 lb lighter than the current V8 Mustang. Not saying it isn't possible but do the trade offs to the Mustang justify the effort? Perhaps a V6 and I-4 Ecoboost Capri based on the FWD Focus would be much simpler to do and justify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 boosted 3.9 in a Focus sized package????wow, perhaps thats overkill, the RS right now with Revo and 300 odd is pretty awesome! Might be overkill but it sure would be fun. I guess you could keep it at 300 HP in the 3.9 and perhaps that would help it out a little in the MPG department and still make it damned fast. I'd like to see it. Then again I'd love to see a Fusion coupe but they have not plans for that either. I think it would be a good seller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) Let's look at what you're saying for a minute.Looking at C1 Focus Vs Mustang: The C1 Focus, a 4 cylinder 3-door coupe with 103" wheelbase weighs in at just under 2750 lb. The difference in weight between the 4-cylinder engine and the V8 is pretty close to 250 lb so before you do any body stiffening, styling and changing to rear wheel drive, the car is already up to 3000 lb or roughly 400 lb lighter than the current V8 Mustang. Not saying it isn't possible but do the trade offs to the Mustang justify the effort? Perhaps a V6 and I-4 Ecoboost Capri based on the FWD Focus would be much simpler to do and justify. I think in order to do it right you are going to need an all new chassis to be honest. Like deanh I like either FWD or RWD cars, however, when it comes to Mustang I agree that it should be left RWD. So that means an all new chassis and perhaps in doing that the designers could find ways to save weight, perhaps even more than the 400 pounds you referenced. I don't think it would be much more than that though. Edited November 9, 2009 by BlackHorse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Might be overkill but it sure would be fun. I guess you could keep it at 300 HP in the 3.9 and perhaps that would help it out a little in the MPG department and still make it damned fast. I'd like to see it. Then again I'd love to see a Fusion coupe but they have not plans for that either. I think it would be a good seller. apparently there ARE plans for an AWD fusion with the SHO drivetrain in it...power to weight there should nake the vehicle HIGHLY entertaining. Me, i like smaller cars, I LOVE the Mustand but prefer something smaller...alas, that means I have to compromise with FWD ( RWD is my preference ) however, FWD platforms have improved IMMENSLEY ( thank goodness ) and can be an absolute BLAST if done right, I do not doubt the RS with Revos potential in the slightest...( apologies, i do NOT wish to send the thread into a FWD vs RWD argument ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 apparently there ARE plans for an AWD fusion with the SHO drivetrain in it...power to weight there should nake the vehicle HIGHLY entertaining. Me, i like smaller cars, I LOVE the Mustand but prefer something smaller...alas, that means I have to compromise with FWD ( RWD is my preference ) however, FWD platforms have improved IMMENSLEY ( thank goodness ) and can be an absolute BLAST if done right, I do not doubt the RS with Revos potential in the slightest...( apologies, i do NOT wish to send the thread into a FWD vs RWD argument ) LOL, Yeah, I think we remember what happened when Ford wanted to make the Probe the new Mustang. Not that the probe was a bad car, I for one thought it was a great car. But I alos think it's a mistake to try and make the Mustang FWD. It should be RWD. You wouldn't make a Porsche 911 with the engine in the front would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 LOL, Yeah, I think we remember what happened when Ford wanted to make the Probe the new Mustang. Not that the probe was a bad car, I for one thought it was a great car. But I alos think it's a mistake to try and make the Mustang FWD. It should be RWD. You wouldn't make a Porsche 911 with the engine in the front would you? some things obviously SHOULD NOT be changed.....the Mustang and 911 have identities pretty much set in stone...if they ever deny a V8 in the Mustang it will be a sad day indeed...sure, go ahead and embrace "technology" to appese those inclined, but never ignore the purity of an icon...Mustang should ALWAYS offer RWD and a V8....always.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 if they ever deny a V8 in the Mustang it will be a sad day indeed... 1974 Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 you know I don't care about or listen to anything that you say It is not for -your- benefit that I point out your logical inconsistencies and your biases and your prejudices and your follies and your errors, your hypocrisy, your arrogance, your high-handedness, and your specious arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverStangO1 Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) This thread, much like the genesis, is a joke. The mustang is fine in the route it's taking and the genesis will not become a car of any importance. I'm thinking it will end up like the prelude or celica in terms of sales. Edited November 9, 2009 by SilverStangO1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 This thread, much like the genesis, is a joke. The mustang is fine in the route it's taking and the genesis will not become a car of any importance. I'm thinking it will end up like the prelude or celica in terms of sales. I agree...its almost like free advertising for the mustang when a new pretender comes out....they all seem to take aim, and either come close or miss completly, the Formula isnt new, but ford most definitely has it dialed....but I do not think for one minute they are resting on their laurels....and the little scabs we keep picking will hopefully be evaluated and hopefully adressed...but we are being exceptionally picky.....the basic package ( barring the aging V6 ) is pretty damn good.....as witnessed by constant imitation and vain attempts at emulation.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 This thread, much like the genesis, is a joke. The mustang is fine in the route it's taking and the genesis will not become a car of any importance. I'm thinking it will end up like the prelude or celica in terms of sales. What route is the Mustang taking? Anyone think the Mustang will still be around in 20 years? If it is, anyone think it will be anything like it is now? I'm not daming the Mustang mind you, it's a great car and it has more than made it's mark on automotive history. As for the Prelude and Celica, they weren't some specific victims that fell prey to Mustang sales. They fell prey to the fact that people moved to SUV's and 4 door sedans. Coupe / 2 door cars used to be plentiful. What, you guys don't remember the Berretta, the ZX3, Probe, Z24, Lumina, Fairmont, Granada, CRX, Regal, Monte Carlos and on and on that were so prevealent throughout the 80's and 90's? Two door cars just fell out of favor with the buying public. Mustang survived, that's all it is. Weather or not the Genesis is a joke is a matter of personal opinion. I happen to think it's a pretty decent car but that's me. I think it's a mistake it underestimate Hyundai. Seems like that's what a lot of us did with respect to Toyota and Honda somwhere around the early 80's. Look how that turned out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Seems like that's what a lot of us did with respect to Toyota and Honda somwhere around the early 80's. Look how that turned out. Yes. It is the responsibility of us, the car fans, to take Hyundai seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 Yes. It is the responsibility of us, the car fans, to take Hyundai seriously. It actually is to some extent, and if you were half as smart as you think you are you would understand why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 What route is the Mustang taking? Anyone think the Mustang will still be around in 20 years? If it is, anyone think it will be anything like it is now? I'm not daming the Mustang mind you, it's a great car and it has more than made it's mark on automotive history. The Mustang will do what its done since 1965... evolve to provide a youthful, fun alternative to the more plain and appliance like cars of the day. It will evolve just as it has, to improve on fuel economy, efficiency, technology, and design, whatever the current customer demands. What I think will stay the same will be a RWD coupe with "sporty" handling, available high performance models, and youthful styling. As for the Prelude and Celica, they weren't some specific victims that fell prey to Mustang sales. They fell prey to the fact that people moved to SUV's and 4 door sedans. Coupe / 2 door cars used to be plentiful. What, you guys don't remember the Berretta, the ZX3, Probe, Z24, Lumina, Fairmont, Granada, CRX, Regal, Monte Carlos and on and on that were so prevealent throughout the 80's and 90's? Two door cars just fell out of favor with the buying public. Mustang survived, that's all it is. There still is a market for coupes, allbeit more fragmented than before. You'll still see pleny of C-Segment coupes (Focus, Civic - and this is where I think GM is making a mistake with the Cruze coming in 4 door only). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) It actually is to some extent, and if you were half as smart as you think you are you would understand why. FWIW I dont think ford for one underestimates their "competition" anymore...if anything I think the reverse is true, look at all the exciting product around the corner....look at the world class drivetrains, their hybrids, hel...even their styling is setting the benchmark......seems to me the COMPETITION has been caught napping... Edited November 9, 2009 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 The Mustang will do what its done since 1965... evolve to provide a youthful, fun alternative to the more plain and appliance like cars of the day. It will evolve just as it has, to improve on fuel economy, efficiency, technology, and design, whatever the current customer demands. What I think will stay the same will be a RWD coupe with "sporty" handling, available high performance models, and youthful styling. There still is a market for coupes, allbeit more fragmented than before. You'll still see pleny of C-Segment coupes (Focus, Civic - and this is where I think GM is making a mistake with the Cruze coming in 4 door only). Fiesta may not bring the 3 door here...a shame IMO, however the 5 dr hatch looks pretty much as good, and insurance doesnt play as much into the final decision....having but 3 doors leaves the "door" open for the pillaging Insurance agencies...why i have NO idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 It actually is to some extent, and if you were half as smart as you think you are you would understand why. But what about all those people out there that aren't taking Hyundai seriously? Going about their daily lives, buying groceries, taking family vacations, working in cubicles, and barely thinking about cars at all from one day to the next. What about them? I think what's needed is a daily newspaper supplement with all the stuff that we should be worried about. You could be the editor. You could tell us all exactly what to think about things, on pain of being labeled 'narrow-minded' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 But what about all those people out there that aren't taking Hyundai seriously? Going about their daily lives, buying groceries, taking family vacations, working in cubicles, and barely thinking about cars at all from one day to the next. What about them? I think what's needed is a daily newspaper supplement with all the stuff that we should be worried about. You could be the editor. You could tell us all exactly what to think about things, on pain of being labeled 'narrow-minded' Rich...no supplement needed...just watch Fox news... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Yes. It is the responsibility of us, the car fans, to take Hyundai seriously. Yes indeed. Hyundai learn really quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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